J1 in Northern France

[Holuigue]

I am J1
How can that be?
My family was in the Pas de Calais since the XV century, never moved from near Boulogne. Farmers. (well, the NAME was there)
In 1500, one Holuigue was Apostolic Notary, others were canons in St Bertin (St Omer).
The arabs never made it up there. Jews are a possibility.
Or maybe a specialist from the Fertile Crescent brought the new technology up north?
Suggestions wellcome, but J1 is 1.3% in Benelux, 0% in France .. I feel lonely!

[Maciamo]

J1 is definitely of Middle Eastern origin, but could have come to northern France at different period through different routes. The most likely possibilities are :

1) Your J1 lineage came during the Roman period. Italy and Greece have the highest percentages of J1 in Europe. Southern Italy has about 5% of J1, while Central Italy and Greece have 2%. So perhaps Roman soldiers or merchants.

2) J1 in northern Europe is often of Jewish origin, although this tends to be truer in central and eastern Europe.

[Wilhelm]

It was also carried by the near eastern farmers I believe, altough minoritary

[Holuigue]

Thanks Wilhelm.
I also keep in mind that Northern France has been visited by stacks of armies and armed bands. Maybe I have a brutal rapist mercenary in my line? Who does not? :)

[Noman]

The romans, probably. Meaning they would ally with tribes like the alans and resettle them willy nilly all over the place. That's where a lot of the J in england comes from and a few other places I can't think of.

There's also some links of viking to middle east raiding and taking slaves. Sone of them integrated into society so it could come from the normans.

[TheKingIam]

J1 is older than Arabic, all this means is that your father's father's father's father's..... was of Middle Eastern origin but that doesn't mean anything, you are still 100% french

[MOESAN]

J1 is older than Arabic, all this means is that your father's father's father's father's..... was of Middle Eastern origin but that doesn't mean anything, you are still 100% french

I agree with you: Y-J1 is found very far from the Near-Eastern-North arabic supposed cradle; we can be sure some rare Y-HGs of deep South (and the autosomal genes that accompanied them) came with the denser represented neolithic Hgs like Y-G2, Y-E1b1, Y-J2 - in North coastal Europe (beside Jews) it could have a Phoenician origin or even megalithic origin (Y-J1 is brother to Y-J2 and the separation was surely not so sharp, even before new crossings between northern and southern near Easterners

[Pax Augusta]

Is there any detailed map of J1 in France?

[Zakaryah]

I am J1
How can that be?
My family was in the Pas de Calais since the XV century, never moved from near Boulogne. Farmers. (well, the NAME was there)
In 1500, one Holuigue was Apostolic Notary, others were canons in St Bertin (St Omer).
The arabs never made it up there. Jews are a possibility.
Or maybe a specialist from the Fertile Crescent brought the new technology up north?
Suggestions wellcome, but J1 is 1.3% in Benelux, 0% in France .. I feel lonely!

First off I am J1. I descend from the Grahams of Scotland. My family is the biggest family in the Graham DNA Project. The project believes that our family is the progenitor family of the name and descendants of Sir William de Graham born 1128. It is believed now believed that William de Graham may have been Flemish rather than Anglo-Norman. It is believed his father could have been Arnulf de Hesdin a Flemish Baron who entered England with William the Conqueror.

Second, our closest relatives(based off of the J1 DNA project at FTDNA.com) outside the Grahams belong to the Baloch tribe. We share an SNP with them that is about 2500 years old. That means the earliest we could have split from them was 500BC. The Baloch speak a North-west Iranian language. Some scholars and linguists believe that they are descendants(at least partially) of the Parthians. The Parthian Empire was founded by the Parni tribe, the Parni tribe came from the Dahae federation of tribes, and the Dahae federation of tribes is partially descendant of the Massagetae tribe. Another tribe that is partially descendant of the Massagetae are the Alans. A map of 500BC shows how close the Massagetae and Dahae were settled to one another.

Third, the only non Germanic tribe that was a part of the Great migration into Europe were the Alans. One of the groups of Alans lead by a leader named Goar settled near Orleans in Gual, which is just South of Flanders. This is the best explanation I have come up with and it may explain your situation as well. J1 is not common among Iranian groups but it is consistently found within them. It probably explains most of Western European J1 which is rare.

I am curious to know what sub-clade of J1 you belong to. The Grahams in the J1 project on FTDNA.com have been waiting to find a closer match within Europe.

[binx]

I am J1 How can that be? My family was in the Pas de Calais since the XV century, never moved from near Boulogne. Farmers. (well, the NAME was there) In 1500, one Holuigue was Apostolic Notary, others were canons in St Bertin (St Omer). The arabs never made it up there. Jews are a possibility. Or maybe a specialist from the Fertile Crescent brought the new technology up north? Suggestions wellcome, but J1 is 1.3% in Benelux, 0% in France .. I feel lonely!

What subclade do you have?

[Angela]

You're not quite alone. :) It is, however, a minority lineage everywhere in Europe.

[Sarah Awad]

Why are you saying it as though being middle eastern in origin would be a bad thing... He is French but his direct paternal roots are middle eastern

[Carl Graham]

LOL , I was going to post almost exactly the same thing !!!!


As an aside there are two families of with some members of J1 origin in Scotland that are of proven northern French origin, the Gilberts and the Grays ( the last being descendants of the Dukes of Tanckerville ).Both of these families are intermarried with Grahams in Scotland and they are both J1-YCS76 , like the Grahams.

[Carl Graham]

First off I am J1. I descend from the Grahams of Scotland. My family is the biggest family in the Graham DNA Project. The project believes that our family is the progenitor family of the name and descendants of Sir William de Graham born 1128. It is believed now believed that William de Graham may have been Flemish rather than Anglo-Norman. It is believed his father could have been Arnulf de Hesdin a Flemish Baron who entered England with William the Conqueror.

Second, our closest relatives(based off of the J1 DNA project at FTDNA.com) outside the Grahams belong to the Baloch tribe. We share an SNP with them that is about 2500 years old. That means the earliest we could have split from them was 500BC. The Baloch speak a North-west Iranian language. Some scholars and linguists believe that they are descendants(at least partially) of the Parthians. The Parthian Empire was founded by the Parni tribe, the Parni tribe came from the Dahae federation of tribes, and the Dahae federation of tribes is partially descendant of the Massagetae tribe. Another tribe that is partially descendant of the Massagetae are the Alans. A map of 500BC shows how close the Massagetae and Dahae were settled to one another.

Third, the only non Germanic tribe that was a part of the Great migration into Europe were the Alans. One of the groups of Alans lead by a leader named Goar settled near Orleans in Gual, which is just South of Flanders. This is the best explanation I have come up with and it may explain your situation as well. J1 is not common among Iranian groups but it is consistently found within them. It probably explains most of Western European J1 which is rare.

I am curious to know what sub-clade of J1 you belong to. The Grahams in the J1 project on FTDNA.com have been waiting to find a closer match within Europe


I meant to copy this ( I'm not used to this format yet !! )

[Ponto]

First off I am J1. I descend from the Grahams of Scotland. My family is the biggest family in the Graham DNA Project. The project believes that our family is the progenitor family of the name and descendants of Sir William de Graham born 1128. It is believed now believed that William de Graham may have been Flemish rather than Anglo-Norman. It is believed his father could have been Arnulf de Hesdin a Flemish Baron who entered England with William the Conqueror. Second, our closest relatives(based off of the J1 DNA project at FTDNA.com) outside the Grahams belong to the Baloch tribe. We share an SNP with them that is about 2500 years old. That means the earliest we could have split from them was 500BC. The Baloch speak a North-west Iranian language. Some scholars and linguists believe that they are descendants(at least partially) of the Parthians. The Parthian Empire was founded by the Parni tribe, the Parni tribe came from the Dahae federation of tribes, and the Dahae federation of tribes is partially descendant of the Massagetae tribe. Another tribe that is partially descendant of the Massagetae are the Alans. A map of 500BC shows how close the Massagetae and Dahae were settled to one another. Third, the only non Germanic tribe that was a part of the Great migration into Europe were the Alans. One of the groups of Alans lead by a leader named Goar settled near Orleans in Gual, which is just South of Flanders. This is the best explanation I have come up with and it may explain your situation as well. J1 is not common among Iranian groups but it is consistently found within them. It probably explains most of Western European J1 which is rare. I am curious to know what sub-clade of J1 you belong to. The Grahams in the J1 project on FTDNA.com have been waiting to find a closer match within Europe I meant to copy this ( I'm not used to this format yet !! )

It is instructive that European men who are J1 seem to have an identity crisis about it. People think Arabs and Jews, but those folks are not ancient ethnic groups or not really connected to the people they are often assumed to descend from, they are metaethnicities, an amalgam of different ethnic groups. These days it is possible to tell which J1 subclades are Jewish, which Arabian, which Armenian even the tribes that possess them. Arab and Jewish subclades are distinctive and any European of those subclades definitely has a Jew or Arab ancestor but some subclades are not found in Jews or are found in a minority of Arabs. J1 in speakers of Neo Arabic languages are the same all over the Arab world, whether in Moroccans, Libyans, Egyptians, Yemeni and North Sudanese Arabs. It would give dividends to the OP if he found out which subclade he belongs, then he can rest his mind on his supposed Jewish or Arabian ancestry.

[paul333]

LOL , I was going to post almost exactly the same thing !!!!

As an aside there are two families of with some members of J1 origin in Scotland that are of proven northern French origin, the Gilberts and the Grays ( the last being descendants of the Dukes of Tanckerville ).Both of these families are intermarried with Grahams in Scotland and they are both J1-YCS76 , like the Grahams.

Hello Graham
Saw your post mentioned on another site, Im not sure wether you are aware of this or not. During the periods of the Rebellions and Highland clearences of Scotland, a lot of Scots were forced off the Land, many convicted of spurious offences and deported to populate the so called empire, a lot of Scots were force emigrated to the West Indies,Americas and to Canada, later Australia, some known as the 'Scottish Martyrs' some families only moved to Northern Ireland. A lot returned from Ireland and possibly from further afield to their homeland, but most who did so had to change their Identity and Name, from the Traditional Highland Clan names such as Mcleod, McDonald, McGreggor etc. They could not Hide their accents but most of these families etc chose to use Scottish Lowland Border names,as a means to overcome this, and hide their true Scots identity to return and remain. A lot of these chosen names, were traditional Scottish Border family names such as Armstrongs, Grays/Greys, Graham,s Elliot,s etc. It caused a lot of problems for family historians, trying to trace Highland familys, and for those tracing Border families.

Paul.

PS a possible side effect of DNA research could prove positive for the future family historians in indentifying and linking these familys back to their clan family.

[jonnormandin]

I am J-BY100 or J1a ................. and my family lived in France for over 1000 years. So it is very possible to have your roots in the Caucus and your famiy in France.

[Angela]

I am J-BY100 or J1a ................. and my family lived in France for over 1000 years. So it is very possible to have your roots in the Caucus and your famiy in France.

The fact that your yDna originated in the Caucasus doesn't make you "Caucasian". The yDna accounts for 2% of your total genetic material.

If you're mostly French Canadian, as I am assuming from the Burlington location, that's your "ethnicity".

Actually, I see that your IP address is New Jersey. Is the Burlington area the location of most of your family?

[Jovialis]

I am J-BY100 or J1a ................. and my family lived in France for over 1000 years. So it is very possible to have your roots in the Caucus and your famiy in France.

Read this: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/please-ignor...l-haplogroups/

[IronSide]

J1 is a cool lineage associated with the spread of Semitic languages and peoples, at least its P58 subclade.

The second major subclade is Z1842, in Caucasus and Anatolia, found recently in Bronze Age Anatolia in a city that theoretically by that time should have had Anatolian IE speakers, I wonder if the subclade is ultimately Indo-European.

Most cases of J1 in non-Mediterranean Europe is a consequence of the Roman Empire's settling its veterans in its provinces, many came from the Balkans, but also Syria, Anatolia, North Africa etc..

[Pax Augusta]

J1 is a cool lineage associated with the spread of Semitic languages and peoples, at least its P58 subclade.

The second major subclade is Z1842, in Caucasus and Anatolia, found recently in Bronze Age Anatolia in a city that theoretically by that time should have had Anatolian IE speakers, I wonder if the subclade is ultimately Indo-European.

Most cases of J1 in non-Mediterranean Europe is a consequence of the Roman Empire's settling its veterans in its provinces, many came from the Balkans, but also Syria, Anatolia, North Africa etc..

I think J1 predates the spread of Semitic languages and peoples. P58's TMRCA is 9,000 years old, the clade itself is 14,300 years old.

[IronSide]

I think J1 predates the spread of Semitic languages and peoples. P58's TMRCA is 9,000 years old, the clade itself is 14,300 years old.

Right, but most subclades of P58 are downstream of Z2331, tmrca is 5800 ybp, which may be the date for proto-Semitic, Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.

The Iran Chalcolithic/Caucasus ancestry in Bronze age Levant might have been a result of Semitic people migrating from the north east, this blogger I think got it right on the Semitic homeland.

Mathildas Anthropology Blog: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it.

[Angela]

Right, but most subclades of P58 are downstream of Z2331, tmrca is 5800 ybp, which may be the date for proto-Semitic, Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.

The Iran Chalcolithic/Caucasus ancestry in Bronze age Levant might have been a result of Semitic people migrating from the north east, this blogger I think got it right on the Semitic homeland.

Mathildas Anthropology Blog: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it.

She was right about a lot of things. I wish she still blogged.

I took it as a compliment that people on 23andme (when it had good discussions) thought I was her...they also thought I was married to Dienekes! Sometimes I wonder about the mental stability of the people who are interested in population genetics. :)

[Pax Augusta]

Right, but most subclades of P58 are downstream of Z2331, tmrca is 5800 ybp, which may be the date for proto-Semitic, Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East.

On YFull the dates (age estimation) could be a bit underestimated, the Z2331's TMRCA could be older than 5800 ybp.

[IronSide]

On YFull the dates (age estimation) could be a bit underestimated, the Z2331's TMRCA could be older than 5800 ybp.

If there are enough people their calculation makes sense for many subclades, true it could older, but by how much ? it could also be younger, its an average if I understand it correctly.

I like to mention the age estimation as a range, for this subclade its 6600 <---> 5100 ybp.