Turkish genocide and the US

[barbarian]

The Trail of Tears wasn't a war, it was an unprovoked forced relocation, so it doesn't really follow the pattern. It was racist and ill-advised. A genocide though? It doesn't really fit the definition because there was no intentional -cide.


You aren't expecting me to defend the Trail of Tears and slavery, are you? They were both terrible. Also neither would be put into a textbook as examples of genocide because they are different sorts of atrocities.



I don't understand what's left to be resolved.



I always figured that they were weak and that's a reason why they were thinking of ethnic cleansing--they couldn't afford minority groups to become powerful antagonists and so they attempted to make their own population more homogeneous. So there was a tactical reason behind it, it wasn't just bigotry, but it still is what it is. Am I way off here?



Thanks

i am not an expert on "armenian case" but as far as i know most of the armenians died during the " unprovoked forced relocation" also (because of freezing cold and starving).

even in this page it is not common idea that it was an genocide or war crime or whatever it was. i am sure there are lots of other details are still unsolved.

turkish population in ottoman was very little. to eliminate the ethnic differences would mean to eliminate almost all of the population of the empire. ottoman killed more turkmen than other ethnicity because they were living different kind of islam: they were escaping from army: and they were not paying tax.

armenians made a coalition with russia against ottoman during the WW1 to have their own country. that was the reason for the starting of this sad case.

[Elias2]

i can understand Armenians feelings, and i give my apologies individually. but people must understand that it was not an ethnic cleaning. Armenians welcomed in ottomans for centuries. these sad "thing" happened during the WW1 when Armenians were fighting for their own land against ottoman. in those times ottoman was so weak that they couldn't think of ethnic cleaning.

Please barbarian, The ottomans were scared out of their wits because they knew they were going to lose WW1 along with germany and the allied powers would grant armenia (and Pontus) a chunk of anatolia.

Turkey needs to grow up over its past and stop acting so childish, the only people they are fooling are themselves, just because a political body doesn't recognise somethign doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[razor]

Actually the Armenian genocide should not even be discussed on this forum. It is a moral and political issue, not a genetic issue. The "History" forum is a better place.

[sparkey]

Actually the Armenian genocide should not even be discussed on this forum. It is a moral and political issue, not a genetic issue. The "History" forum is a better place.

This isn't the genetics forum, this is the "EU politics & government" forum, and Turkish recognition of the Armenian, Pontic Greek, and Assyrian genocides is relevant to EU politics.

[barbarian]

Please barbarian, The ottomans were scared out of their wits because they knew they were going to lose WW1 along with germany and the allied powers would grant armenia (and Pontus) a chunk of anatolia.

Turkey needs to grow up over its past and stop acting so childish, the only people they are fooling are themselves, just because a political body doesn't recognise somethign doesn't mean it didn't happen.

i also think that turkey must face and apologize if there is such a shit in his history (i dont mean there was nothing happened). and i can understand armenians.

but, to be forced to apologize by western countries who;
- killed thousands of women and children by using atomic bombs,
- slaved people by taking them from their homeland,
- attacking to other countries to bring democracy (see libya and iraq),
- ...

makes me angry and sad.

[Elias2]

i also think that turkey must face and apologize if there is such a shit in his history (i dont mean there was nothing happened). and i can understand armenians.

but, to be forced to apologize by western countries who;
- killed thousands of women and children by using atomic bombs,
- slaved people by taking them from their homeland,
- attacking to other countries to bring democracy (see libya and iraq),
- ...

makes me angry and sad.

I think the difference is if you ask an american if they droped the bomb on two japanese cities they will say yes of course we did. But again this was used for different reasons than why the Ottoman's killed the armenians. America used the bomb to help bring the war to a close, not to wipe out the inhabitants and then annex the land. WW1 was already comming to a fast close at the time of the genocide. Another thing you have to remember that it wasn't just the armenians actively helping the Russian army, even armenians serving in the Ottoman army were dismissed and sent into the Syrian desert to die. This was target killing en masse.

It is estimated that 40-60 million First Nations people lived in North America prior to the arrival of the "white man", now they have a minimal presence in amerca, though a larger one in the Canadian North and western provinces. But dispite all this loss of life and imperialism, there is no atmosphere of denial. It is recorded and accepted, and now thesse people pay no taxes in Amerca and in Canada alot of First Nations people actually have their own self-governing autonomous regions like teh Tlicho in the North West Territories.

Slavery is not really an issue because everyone practised it, even the Ottomans extensivley.

Third point is very debatable, could the Iraqies overthrow Sandam by themselves? Or would it be like Syria now when demestrators are shot down. Would there even be an Arab spring if America hadn't invaded Iraq? OR is the catalyst something totaly different. Could the Egyptians overthrow Mubarak if America hadn't had so much sway in that country? or did he do it out of the kindness of his heart? Could the Lybian rebels have won if it wasn't for NATO air support? I think this answer is obvious.

[razor]

Sorry. My mistake. Or perhaps the fact that someone (Maciamo?) raised the issue of "genes" earlier... Which of course has nothing to do with the issue.

[barbarian]

I think the difference is if you ask an american if they droped the bomb on two japanese cities they will say yes of course we did. But again this was used for different reasons than why the Ottoman's killed the armenians. America used the bomb to help bring the war to a close, not to wipe out the inhabitants and then annex the land. WW1 was already comming to a fast close at the time of the genocide. Another thing you have to remember that it wasn't just the armenians actively helping the Russian army, even armenians serving in the Ottoman army were dismissed and sent into the Syrian desert to die. This was target killing en masse.

It is estimated that 40-60 million First Nations people lived in North America prior to the arrival of the "white man", now they have a minimal presence in amerca, though a larger one in the Canadian North and western provinces. But dispite all this loss of life and imperialism, there is no atmosphere of denial. It is recorded and accepted, and now thesse people pay no taxes in Amerca and in Canada alot of First Nations people actually have their own self-governing autonomous regions like teh Tlicho in the North West Territories.

Slavery is not really an issue because everyone practised it, even the Ottomans extensivley.

Third point is very debatable, could the Iraqies overthrow Sandam by themselves? Or would it be like Syria now when demestrators are shot down. Would there even be an Arab spring if America hadn't invaded Iraq? OR is the catalyst something totaly different. Could the Egyptians overthrow Mubarak if America hadn't had so much sway in that country? or did he do it out of the kindness of his heart? Could the Lybian rebels have won if it wasn't for NATO air support? I think this answer is obvious.

a well educated modern country, in his prime, killed thousands of children and women. and you think that they are right because they did it for a "good reason" (ending the war).
so;
- may be ottoman had a good reason also, but who will judge the good reason.
- if you have a good reason then you can kill innocent people

i dont say that US also killed people so what ottoman did was correct. i say that a country killing and attacking, slaving people and at the end of day come and say you killed people 100 years ago and you must excuse... man,.. you are doing it everyday.

"Slavery is not really an issue because everyone practised it, even the Ottomans extensivley."---??? No it was very very seldom.

so you think that Libya, iraq and egypt benefited from "arabian spring"? we see what is happening in iraq now. and we will see libya soon. i wonder why US do not help qatar, s.arabia, etc. (hint:because they are already in their hand -the movie "syria" explains it well)

anyway, i expressed almost all of my ideas about this topic. thanks for all answers.

[Reinaert]

Hi..
What the Turks did against the Armenians was a plain racist and ethnic cleansing war. That's why I don't want Turkey in the EU.

I don't understand why the Turks can't say sorry about what they did.

It's history. Take it, or leave it! If you want to be a part of Europe, you have to admit your bad history.
We all have done that.
We Dutch were also very bad.
But we admit it!

At least my clan hasn't had any connection with the evil deeds of the Dutch, but it's still a good thing to tell that the Dutch government is very bad!

Wilders is still an *******, and nobody in the government has the guts to kick his butt!
I hate my country for this!

[Elias2]

a well educated modern country, in his prime, killed thousands of children and women. and you think that they are right because they did it for a "good reason" (ending the war).
so;
- may be ottoman had a good reason also, but who will judge the good reason.
- if you have a good reason then you can kill innocent people

Hmm I think you don't understand. America droped two bombs to end ww2. Ottomans killed armenians not to end ww1 (it was already comming to a close), but to make sure they won't be around for them to get theri own country. America admits this is the reason they did it, Turkey doesn't admit this is the reason they did it, and deny it, like you are doing.

i dont say that US also killed people so what ottoman did was correct. i say that a country killing and attacking, slaving people and at the end of day come and say you killed people 100 years ago and you must excuse... man,.. you are doing it everyday.

you must excuse? what do you mean by this? turn a blind eye?

"Slavery is not really an issue because everyone practised it, even the Ottomans extensivley."---??? No it was very very seldom.

Mamuluks, janissaries, were slave soldiers. Ottoman sultans had dozens of concubines. Civil beurocracy in istanbul was full of slaves.

so you think that Libya, iraq and egypt benefited from "arabian spring"? we see what is happening in iraq now. and we will see libya soon. i wonder why US do not help qatar, s.arabia, etc. (hint:because they are already in their hand -the movie "syria" explains it well)

Yes, now they are free to take a totaly different path than the dictatorship in the past decades. The people who are trying to derail this are the islamic fundementalists who want the country to be like saudi arabia.

[barbarian]

So, the soldiers and burocracy in ottoman were slaves. They were ruling the Empire. Which kind of social democracy is it? What is the relationship of mamuluks with ottoman?

[barbarian]

Reinaert, it is not about excuse what I am trying to explain. It is about the double face of west. I.e. Nobody took any measurements against Serbs during the Bosnia case, but everybody try to help "Petroloid" countries. About the joining to EU: we all know that neither eu nor turkey don't care about it anymore.

[Elias2]

So, the soldiers and burocracy in ottoman were slaves. They were ruling the Empire. Which kind of social democracy is it? What is the relationship of mamuluks with ottoman?

Mamuluks were hired throughout the Ottoman empire in all the provinces. When napolean landed in egypt at the begining of the 19th century, he didn't fight ottoman soldiers he fought the mamuluks. All of north africa wasn't really under the control per-say of Istanbul, they were more like vassels who raised the red crecent flag and in return got gold tribute, same for the arabs in the levent.

Any people who resisted ottoman authority were enslaved aswell. I'm just giving you examples of slavery which you think was non-exsistant in the Ottoman empire.

[Elias2]

I.e. Nobody took any measurements against Serbs during the Bosnia case, but everybody try to help "Petroloid" countries.

So the NATO bombing of Belgrade were just my imagination?

[barbarian]

So the NATO bombing of Belgrade were just my imagination?

after 200.000 bosnian was alrready death in 3 years. if there was petrol in bosnia, everything would be different.

1,5 years ago:124250.jpg

[Reinaert]

Reinaert, it is not about excuse what I am trying to explain. It is about the double face of west. I.e. Nobody took any measurements against Serbs during the Bosnia case, but everybody try to help "Petroloid" countries. About the joining to EU: we all know that neither eu nor turkey don't care about it anymore.

I ask you to be honest!
I know that Armenians are considered as crooks and thieves by many people from the middle east.
I heard that from colleagues I had, that worked in The Netherlands and originated from your part of the world.
For instance legends that Armenians have hidden treasures in the mountains of East Turkey.
There is a racist background behind this.

Do you agree?

Just like Wilders has a racist agenda.
He is also a bad person that harms our international reputation.
I admit that, I even hate what the man does.
But at least I admit it, and why can't you and other Turks do the same.

[barbarian]

I ask you to be honest!
I know that Armenians are considered as crooks and thieves by many people from the middle east.
I heard that from colleagues I had, that worked in The Netherlands and originated from your part of the world.
For instance legends that Armenians have hidden treasures in the mountains of East Turkey.
There is a racist background behind this.

Do you agree?

Just like Wilders has a racist agenda.
He is also a bad person that harms our international reputation.
I admit that, I even hate what the man does.
But at least I admit it, and why can't you and other Turks do the same.

i gues i can not express myself well, may be because of language problem.

1st, about excuse, i said before that i personally excuse from armenians for this shit, because i feel that such a case happened. and i believe our goverment should force to create an international work group to investigate the details and scale of this case (as i told before) and accordingly should excuse.

2nd, i try to be honest everytime. but i may say lie even to myself due to superego.

3rd, i say: even now, western countries (or countries having the power at the moment) are enough sinful for me to name them double faced.

5th: this one %100 honest-- i never heard anything about their stealing habit.
turkish people believe that armenians and romans (greeks?) are well experts especially in fishing and construction. in the past most of the people respected their handiness, but cold to them not because of racism but because they are "gavur" or christian in the house. these days, average people do not like them because of current superego.

6th, turkish people thinks that they put the goldens in the mountins or in the small rivers-- that is true. turks believe that when romans and armenians are running out from the country, they hide their golds to some secret places. even now, people are searching these golds. some greek people also come from greece and search those golds also.

7th, you hate one of your party leader. i hate my prime minister. it is not hard to admit something like this.

lastly, we have still armenians and romans in the country and some of them are very good artist. like hayko cepkin (very interesting character please watch it till end if you like brutal vocal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ26nqyLc0M

bass guitarist ari barokas from the band duman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3iA-QEim0

and sezen aksu- the diva of turkish pop (no link cause i dont like her)

[barbarian]

my reply to post no:38 are not allowed yet. i dont know the reason. but, elias i advise you make a simple search about memlukes

from wiki:
"
A Mamluk (Turkish: Memlük, also called Kölemen; Arabic: مملوك (singular), مماليك mamālīk (plural), "owned"; also transliterated mamlouk, mamluq, mamluke, mameluk, mameluke, mamaluke or marmeluke) was a soldier of slave origin, often of Turkic ancestry[1]. The "mamluk phenomenon", as David Ayalon dubbed the creation of the specific warrior class,[2] was of great political importance and was extraordinarily long-lived, lasting from the 9th to the 19th century AD. Over time, mamluks became a powerful military caste in various Muslim societies. Particularly in Egypt, but also in the Levant, Iraq, and India, mamluks held political and military power. In some cases, they attained the rank of sultan, while in others they held regional power as amirs or beys. Most notably, mamluk factions seized the sultanate for themselves in Egypt and Syria in a period known as the Mamluk Sultanate (1250–1517). The Mamluk Sultanate famously beat back the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut and fought the Crusaders effectively driving them out from the Levant by 1291 and officially in 1302 ending the era of the Crusades.[citation needed]
They were of varied ancestry but were often Kipchak Turks/Cumans,[3] depending on the period and region in question. While mamluks were purchased, their status was above ordinary slaves, who were not allowed to carry weapons or perform certain tasks. In places such as Egypt from the Ayyubid dynasty to the time of Muhammad Ali of Egypt, mamluks were considered to be “true lords,” with social status above freeborn Muslims"

[Elias2]

I know they ruled egypt I said that already, but they were slaves, Ottomans used alot of slaves in army and civil service. So don't act the way you do.

If I may be blunt, I've noticed turks think of themselves as sinnless people who do good everywhere and but are pretty facist. You fall under this catagory too trying to defend genocide as well. And this paranoia that the west has some pro-christian biases. I guess Lybia dn Iraq are christian, thats why we helped them?

I hope not every turk is like this because turkey is not an angelic country and is quiet the opposite, trying to cause problems for all turkey's neighbours including the eastern meditteranean now. Turkey is a very agreissive country and gets away with it cause America lets turkey who are in NATO. Now that turkey isn't getting into the EU, maybe NATO is in the past as well? I hope so, because turkey literally gets away with murder.

Erdogan thinks Turkey is some sort of power and this will bite turkey is the ass sooner or later.

[Mzungu mchagga]

and sezen aksu- the diva of turkish pop (no link cause i dont like her)

I'll do the job for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egHMbVrlu7E

Hey wow, on 30th of October she will give a concert just a few minutes walk away from my home, maybe I should give her a try?

[barbarian]

I know they ruled egypt I said that already, but they were slaves, Ottomans used alot of slaves in army and civil service. So don't act the way you do.

If I may be blunt, I've noticed turks think of themselves as sinnless people who do good everywhere and but are pretty facist. You fall under this catagory too trying to defend genocide as well. And this paranoia that the west has some pro-christian biases. I guess Lybia dn Iraq are christian, thats why we helped them?

I hope not every turk is like this because turkey is not an angelic country and is quiet the opposite, trying to cause problems for all turkey's neighbours including the eastern meditteranean now. Turkey is a very agreissive country and gets away with it cause America lets turkey who are in NATO. Now that turkey isn't getting into the EU, maybe NATO is in the past as well? I hope so, because turkey literally gets away with murder.

Erdogan thinks Turkey is some sort of power and this will bite turkey is the ass sooner or later.

either i am very bad in writing or you dont understand what you read. what you wrote is racist by itself. anyway, ....

[barbarian]

I'll do the job for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egHMbVrlu7E

Hey wow, on 30th of October she will give a concert just a few minutes walk away from my home, maybe I should give her a try?

did you listen hayko? he is one of my favourite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ26nqyLc0M

may be this one is better version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYvpl...eature=related

[Elias2]

either i am very bad in writing or you dont understand what you read. what you wrote is racist by itself. anyway, have a nice day.

I know what I wrote, I think you don't want to reply because of your "superego". Turkey has alot of skeletons in its closet.

[barbarian]

I know what I wrote, I think you don't want to reply because of your "superego". Turkey has alot of skeletons in its closet.

no need to answer your groundless aggression better to edit my post no:46

[Mzungu mchagga]

did you listen hayko? he is one of my favourite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ26nqyLc0M

may be this one is better version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYvpl...eature=related

Yes I really like this kind of music, especially this synthesis at the end of metal vocals combined with oriental harmonies. It is really stunning! Funny that System of a Down is also partly Armenian.