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Thread: Turkish genocide and the US

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    no need to answer your groundless aggression better to edit my post no:46
    You see now matter how much back and forth the turth stands that Turks did commit genocide during WW1 You ancoestors commited barberism and have blood on their hands of innocents, you should be ashamed.
    Last edited by Elias2; 25-09-11 at 16:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    You see now matter how much back and forth the turth stands that Turks did commit genocide during WW1 You ancoestors commited barberism and have blood on their hands of innocents, you should be ashamed, but considering you are turk, I think you like it
    I ignore you. Please don't quote or answer me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    You see now matter how much back and forth the turth stands that Turks did commit genocide during WW1 You ancoestors commited barberism and have blood on their hands of innocents, you should be ashamed, but considering you are turk, I think you like it
    Hmm.. You seem to be a Canadian, and looking at what you typed, I ask myself..
    Have you been drinking alcohol before you typed this?
    Not very wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Hmm.. You seem to be a Canadian, and looking at what you typed, I ask myself..
    Have you been drinking alcohol before you typed this?
    Not very wise.
    What does it matter what nationality I am? I would like an answer on this if this disturbs you so much.

    If you have heard the stories of what happened to armenian/greek/assyrian christians and how turkey is trying to deny it and people like barbarian try to deny it I don't see what is wrong with my post.

    Genocide did occur and children like Barbarian pout when the truth comes out. Of course in Turkey when people say things like this they go to jail, censorship is still high in that country, so I understand how this culture of denial sparks anger in the hearts of turks when the topic is brought up.

    That and the continual suppresion of the Kurds, but this is for another discussion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq8IwaH3C5c

    I remeber a while ago there was another Turkish person on this forum that was more straightfoward on the events and better conversation was had, he stopped posting here after that once and I wish he was here to get another unbiased turkish perspective on the matter, b/c barbarian's perspective is clouded with nationalism.

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    Nor very nice. Barbarian has done nothing to deserve this attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
    Nor very nice. Barbarian has done nothing to deserve this attack.
    I think he did, but I need to edit my post because I directed it at all turks when I just meant to be towards him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian chevalier View Post
    Mİllİon natİve anatolİan are massacred by european İnvaders ...they massacred theİr master we gİve them a cİvİlİzatİon they massacred natİve anatolİans
    That had nothing to do with your people being Anatolian, but because you were Muslim. And so did Muslims killed Christians in great numbers just because they were Christians, not because they were European.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian chevalier View Post
    Turkey turks are ANATOLİAN people who are native to ANATOLİA. Anatolian people want to save their native country its our problem not your Your uncivilized ancestor who invade our land and killed NATİVE ANATOLİAN PEOPLE WHO ARE DESCEND OF LYDİANS,HİTİTİES ETC. YOUR PEOPLE ALSO STOLE OUR CİVİLİZATİON AİNT THEY? ROMA WAS FOUNDED BY ANATOLİAN ,MONEY İS FOUNDED BY ANATOLİAN LOT OF FOLK COME FROM ANATOLİA...NOW ANATOLİANS ARE BARBAR LOL
    Are you insane? Turkic people came from Central Asia, invaded the land of the people who lived in Anatolia before, and they conquered the area from its native people. If your ancestors are true native Anatolians you can't be Turkic. Today you can be a native Anatolian, who is a Turkish citizen and part ot the Turkish nation, but ethnically not a Turkic! Although of course inter-marriages happend for hundreds of years, so I seriously doubt that anyone could be a 100% pure Anatolian... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples - for the clearer understanding of the difference between Turkish and Turkic )

    I can tell you however that since the Antiquity, Anatolia (Asia Minor) was a multi-ethnic region! Greeks lived there for at least 3000 thousand years, but after WWI the Turkish expelled (if the weren't massacered) these native people of Anatolia. As you speak about Hittites, Urartu etc. They are the forefathers of Armenians whom the Turkish also killed or in a fortunate situation just expelled from their many-thousand-year-old home.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian chevalier View Post
    İ am anatolİan do you undertsnad anatolİa İs my natİve land; kurds,greek and assyrİans arent natİve ....do you understand? Do you know who are anatolİan people?? Mİllİon natİve anatolİan are massacred by european İnvaders ...they massacred theİr master we gİve them a cİvİlİzatİon they massacred natİve anatolİans


    Anatolia - 500 BC

    Who where massacred and when? What do you mean by Anatolian? Weren't the Perisans who conquered Anatolia as a whole first? European identity is not so old my friend! It only comes with the Middle Ages, and of course not in the mind of ordinary people, just in soe theoretists sitting in the abbeys writing their books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Actually it does not, as long as you don't regard the Armenians as another racial or ethnic group from other Anatolians. Under the Ottoman Empire they were part of the same country and so cannot be considered a different national group either.

    Unwittingly you have helped me demonstrate that the UN's definition of 'genocide' does not apply to what the Turks did to the Armenians.
    The same true for holocaust! Many emancipated Jewish people considered themselves ethnically/nationally Hungarian in the case of Hungary, but of Jewish religion. Same true for the other Central European states as well, and I seriously doubt that it won't be true for Benelux or France! So this is really a FALSE argument! Armenians considered themselves as a different ethnic and of course religious group than Turks. Self-determination is the key element of a nation or an ethnic group!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian chevalier View Post
    İ am anatolİan do you undertsnad anatolİa İs my natİve land; kurds,greek and assyrİans arent natİve ....do you understand? Do you know who are anatolİan people?? Mİllİon natİve anatolİan are massacred by european İnvaders ...they massacred theİr master we gİve them a cİvİlİzatİon they massacred natİve anatolİans
    Why do you care what we mongrels think? You should hide in your green eye/white skin village away from big bad world. Come back when you grow up.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anatolian chevalier View Post
    Turkey turks are ANATOLİAN people who are native to ANATOLİA. Anatolian people want to save their native country its our problem not your Your uncivilized ancestor who invade our land and killed NATİVE ANATOLİAN PEOPLE WHO ARE DESCEND OF LYDİANS,HİTİTİES ETC. YOUR PEOPLE ALSO STOLE OUR CİVİLİZATİON AİNT THEY? ROMA WAS FOUNDED BY ANATOLİAN ,MONEY İS FOUNDED BY ANATOLİAN LOT OF FOLK COME FROM ANATOLİA...NOW ANATOLİANS ARE BARBAR LOL
    Post your admixture chart, let's see where you come from.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's not genocide for me, the Armenian civilians were exiled by the Ottomans(1915, relocation law), partisans and militans were killed by the Ottoman empire army.. they were using as a "pawn" by our imperial enemies(Russian empire, British empire, French empire)... I haven't ever talked about French occupy of Algeria and colonialism of Western empires..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sonici View Post
    It's not genocide for me, the Armenian civilians were exiled by the Ottomans(1915, relocation law), partisans and militans were killed by the Ottoman empire army.. they were using as a "pawn" by our imperial enemies(Russian empire, British empire, French empire)... I haven't ever talked about French occupy of Algeria and colonialism of Western empires.. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Josh\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    If this ultra-nationalistic rhetoric that borders on academic blindness is taught in Turkish Public schools then I have little hope of Turkey in the future as a partner with the west. And I would suggest that Turkey would be more at home in the Russian Federation’s warm embrace than with the EU. Your ignorance of history is astounding and it is clear you see through rose tinted glasses. Did you happen to learn about any of these in your Turkish schools;The Istanbul pogrom, Dersim Massacre, Zilan massacre, Beyazıt massacre or the Taksim Square massacre.

    The fact you think of it only as an exile is insulting and to be honest angers me. Exile does not mean death marches into the Syrian Desert, forced physical labor to the point of death, the systematic killing of able bodied men and the forced deportation of women, children and the elderly. The systematic elimination to everything non Turkish in Anatolia is indeed genocide and it is bigger than most people know. It started with the Orthodox communities and when they were removed they kept going taking time to forcibly assimilate every group of people that were not self-identified Turks.

    Many people cite the genocide starting in 1915 and carrying on past the First World War into 1923 (birth year of the republic) this period of course includes The Turkish War of Independence 1919 –1923 that was fought between the Turkish nationalists and the powers backed by the allies; Greece, Armenia and France after the conclusion of World War One. I bring this up because, the Treaty of Sèvres was abandoned and the Treaty of Lausanne was signed because of the Turkish War of Independence. This is important because it voided the creation of Kurdistan and other promises made to the Greeks and Armenians that resulted in much more bloodshed.

    Turkey abolished the sultanate (1922) and the caliphate (1924) which is noteworthy because it severed the only thing that bound Kurds and Turks and set the stage for more modern conflicts such as the current plight of the Kurds on both sides of the Syrian-Turkish border.

    In 1923 Turkey signed the Treaty of Lausanne this established the modern borders of Turkey as we know it and over turned the previous treaty . In a nut shell it delineates minorities on the basis of religion only. It sounded good to them on paper but in practice Turkey only granted these rights to the Armenians, Jews and Rums. But if you were a non-Muslim such as the Assyrians, Bahais, Georgians, Maronite Christians, Protestants and Ezidis you were left without protections. And by 1926 it surrendered the minority rights secured for the Jewish, Armenian and Greek peoples.

    But in reality I would start the clock on the Ottoman-Turkish repression/genocide of the Armenians back to 1876 when Sultan Abdülhamid II sought to find a way to resolve the reoccurring unrest in the empire by reinforcing the Islamic character of the state. His first trick was the creation of the Hamidiye Regiments which were comprised of Kurds from the eastern provinces that would be deployed in case of rebellions.

    The sultan quickly used them in the Ottoman campaign against the Armenians, as Abdülhamid II feared a Armenian uprising in the eastern part of the empire.

    The creation of an atmosphere that was opposed to anything non-Islamic was a torch that was carried on by no other than Mustafa Kemal himself aka Papa Turk as founder of the so called “secular turkey” in his conception of a new state, Mustafa Kemal leaves out all the non-Islamic communities of the country.

    Thus, the proclamation of the Erzurum Congress of 1919 stipulates that all Islamic ethnic groups living in this area, are true brothers, imbued with the sentiment of mutual sacrifice and respectful of their racial and social circumstances.

    Article 6 of the same proclamation extends this principle to all Ottoman territories within the lines of the armistice signed with the Allies in 1918 and states the Ottoman lands as “inhabited by our true brothers, of the same religion and race as ourselves, whom it is impossible to divide.”

    Papa Turk used this Islamic rhetoric about the Islamic character of the peoples living on the Ottoman lands repeatedly, each time underlining the “brotherhood” between Turks and Kurds, leaving anyone not Muslim out completely.

    With all of this in mind I would say it is in fact genocide that started with Abdülhamid II and was carried on by Mustafa Kemal and only ended when the republic had finished off the Greek and Armenian obstacles to Turkafying Anatolia. The republic then quickly turned on their Muslim brothers who did not self-identify as Turkish such as the Kurds. Between 1925 and 1938 thousands of Kurds and Alevis were deported to Western Turkey. Causing many Kurdish rebellions in the 1920s the first major one was the Koçgiri rebellion of 1920, made up mainly of the Kirmancis of Dersim, it was followed by another rebellion lead by Sheikh Said in 1925, made up mostly by Zazas.

    Many people do not know that parts of Turkey were under continuous martial law from 1925 until 1946 because of the oppressive Turkish polices.

    I argue that the Armenian Genocide is much wider in scope than many people even know about and that even today the legacy it created still carries on in the republics laws and practices with respect to ethnic and religious minorities. It is hard and painful for nations to admit they are on the wrong side of the moral fence but it can be done. Apartheid in South Africa and slavery and racism in American history are some examples of states acknowledging past wrongs and trying to atone for them.

    What had worked successfully on smaller groups such as the Assyrians, Armenians and Greeks did not quite pan out when it came to the Kurds or the Alevi so after about 70 years of denial they had to admit to the existence of the latter groups. That would be in the 1990s fyi. To this very day the Turkish Republic tries to limit the political, religious, educational and linguistic rights of any group that is not a self-identified Turk.

    Back in 2004 when Turkey was courting the EU for membership it was forced to do something that had to at least on paper try to address some of the minority issues. For my fellow non-European members who may read this it is called the minority protection conditionality for EU members.

    In reality the reforms were still too restrictive for a modern and western nation state. In other words it granted some rights to minorities but made it so restrictive as to have no real effect. It also made a backdoor clause so that if any of the minorities enjoyed their new found freedoms to much they would reserve the ability to have unbridled authority in making ancillary legislation.

    Now imagine if it was forbidden to speak French on the radio or television in Canada, or Spanish on a national televised program in my United States or use English in Ireland while televising a major sporting event because of arbitrary regulations that limit minority-language news and cultural programming to 60 minutes per day, five hours per week on radio, and 45 minutes per day, four hours per week on television. The regulations also require that non-Turkish radio programs be followed by the same program in Turkish.

    I would argue that listing religious affiliation on the cards exposes people to discrimination and is very un-secular. The law restricts religious services to designated places of worship. Municipal codes mandate that only the government can designate a place of worship; if a religious group has no legal standing in the country, it may not be eligible for a designated site.

    If your in a small non islamic group then you are probaly not going to be able to hold any religious services. Police occasionally prohibit Christians from holding services on private property even, and prosecutors sometimes open cases against Christians for holding unauthorized gatherings.

    Supposedly proselytizing or religious conversions are not illegal but there have been cases of prosecutors and police looking at groups who do such things with suspicion and have prevented Christians from handing out religious literature in the not to distant past.

    The idea of Turkey as a bastion or bulwark of secular democracy has been and always will be a farce made when we needed Turkey during the Cold War. It was a one party state till 1945 and no matter who ran the government they were strictly for Turkish nationalism.

    The dismantling of the Caliphate and Sultanate severed the one tie the Kurds and Turks shared and were mere power plays to control the state because it was a threat to its nationalist aims for full control of the people residing in Anatolia and went so far as to replace Ottoman Arabic with a variant of Latin script for written Turkish. Mystical Sufi with various religious-social orders such as tarikats have been banned officially since 1925.

    From an American perspective that would be like banning the Knights of Columbus, The Stone Masons and Shriners. The fact that the Turkish government has a “list” of acceptable religions that limit what you can identify with is appalling. For the sake of being thorough I am talking about the Baha’is who have no option.

    To add insult to injury they state their religious affiliation on national ID cards. Imagine the uproar in America if Mormons, Scientologists, Rastafarians and other non-mainstream religions were snubbed in such a way.

    Turkey even took direct control of formal Islamic institutions. In reality we could say it is more like a Theocracy then a democratic secular government. So please you are not fooling anyone with your false claims of being a modern secular government. It was genocide and it did not stop with the Armenians.

    I will edit this post later to add all the sources and proper citations but I am tired right now and need to get some sleep.
    Last edited by Ua'Ronain; 11-10-14 at 22:09.

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    What more can one expect from the turk.

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    why only Turks? kurds and circassians killed more than Turks. Turk not live on that area.

    and i think some different things for that events.

    when ittihat terakki coup to ottoman empire. (and i believe they are mason/sionist agents.) doing so many bad things about anatolian people. i think this is a project for that gheography.

    also ittihat terakki not turks. 2 kurd 2 chirkassian, 1 albanian is main leaders of ittihat terakki.

    So we dont have so much connection for that events. you can ask to kurds and mason agents

    i must be say again

    Turks dont live on that area. circassian, and kurdish people high population eastern anatolia with armenians for that days.

    and ittihat terakki is not Turks. they are different ethnicity from ottoman like a ataturk and they have mason/sionist connection

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