haplogroup L, the rarest in Europe

[Androcle]

I belong to the haplogroup L, the rarest in Europe.
My subclade is L2, which is the western form of L.
L1 is found in India, L3 in Pakistan.
Here is one scenario among many others :
One thinks that the haplogroup L is dravidian (black skinned, dravidian language).
In the 14th century BCE lived in western Iran the Elamites (black skinned, with a dravidian-like language), whose capital was Shushan (= Susa). It is probable that their haplogroup was mainly L2.
In the Bible (Ezra 4:10) it is said that the assyrian king Ashurbanipal had exiled and deported Elamites to Samaria. A bas-relief in Louvre museum shows Ashurbanipal with deported Elamites. This can explain the presence of L2 in Syria and Lebanon. These deported mingled with the local population and became Phoenicians. That's the reason why L2 are found in Mediterranean Europe.

Se non e vero, e bene trovato !

[carl good]

This is very interesting. I am an blond blue eyed American of Swiss ancestry who is L2a who can trace his family back to Rudi Gutten in the 13 hundreds in Switzerland. This is a long way from India but perhaps my family were Phoenicians.

[sparkey]

This is very interesting. I am an blond blue eyed American of Swiss ancestry who is L2a who can trace his family back to Rudi Gutten in the 13 hundreds in Switzerland. This is a long way from India but perhaps my family were Phoenicians.

It might be difficult to trace the migration pattern of the little L2 there is in Europe, but Classical-era merchants from Persia/Phoenicia/etc. seems possible, I believe that Maciamo postulates that on this site. I haven't scoped out any scholarly sources, though, because L2 never seems relevant when discussing European demographics as a whole.

By the way, welcome! I'm a fellow American of Swiss descent (well, on the direct patriline anyway)... I can't get my line back so far but I've also gotten a fairly rare haplogroup for my line (I2*-cluster A). I suppose "Gutten" was Anglicized as "Good" in your case? My original Swiss-German surname was similarly radically Anglicized... it even starts with a different letter now.

[carl good]

There are a number of "goods" in the US with the Lb2 Y chromosome haplogroup. It seems that they reside from pensylvania to Illinois. Many were anabatists or religious conservatives such as the mennonites originally. I was supprised that so many of those with this haplogroup in the US have the surname "Good" using Family Tree DNA web site.

[sparkey]

There are a number of "goods" in the US with the Lb2 Y chromosome haplogroup. It seems that they reside from pensylvania to Illinois. Many were anabatists or religious conservatives such as the mennonites originally. I was supprised that so many of those with this haplogroup in the US have the surname "Good" using Family Tree DNA web site.

Is the spelling consistent among the Good family? My surname's English spellings vary radically. For example, most did not make the change to the first letter that my branch did. In fact, I wasn't certain that my surname was even related to some of these other spellings until I took a DNA test.

[haithabu]

I've read about the Goods and found it quite interesting. Do they have any close matches in other surnames or from around the Mediterranean?

[Gábor Balogh]

This is very interesting. I am an blond blue eyed American of Swiss ancestry who is L2a who can trace his family back to Rudi Gutten in the 13 hundreds in Switzerland. This is a long way from India but perhaps my family were Phoenicians.

Hi, I have a very interesting family story: My great-grandfather (Julius Kenézy de Simánd) is from genus Guthkeled whose ancestor called Vecellinus von Weißenburg from Bavaria. He became a great hero in Hungary helping the christian kings against the pagan rebels. These genus later split into several others: Báthory, Kenézy, etc. It is fascinating that the name Gutt, Gutten, Guth remains even 1000 years also in Hungary.

Kind Regards:
Gábor Balogh

[Surho]

I belong to the haplogroup L, the rarest in Europe.
My subclade is L2, which is the western form of L.
L1 is found in India, L3 in Pakistan.
Here is one scenario among many others :
One thinks that the haplogroup L is dravidian (black skinned, dravidian language).
In the 14th century BCE lived in western Iran the Elamites (black skinned, with a dravidian-like language), whose capital was Shushan (= Susa). It is probable that their haplogroup was mainly L2.
In the Bible (Ezra 4:10) it is said that the assyrian king Ashurbanipal had exiled and deported Elamites to Samaria. A bas-relief in Louvre museum shows Ashurbanipal with deported Elamites. This can explain the presence of L2 in Syria and Lebanon. These deported mingled with the local population and became Phoenicians. That's the reason why L2 are found in Mediterranean Europe.

Se non e vero, e bene trovato !

hi, i was also tested as L2, i am From Caucasus, Chechnya, and it looks like we also have lot of L-s there. There is lot of interesting things about L Haplogroupe, looks like its an very special one . Well Is someone here who is also in Familytreedna database?

[sdimaria]

Hello. I have been typed as having haplogroup L30, with a subgroup of G-PF2822. I'm having a very difficult time getting any info on the subgroup and I wasn't aware that the L group was rare! My ancestry is from Sicily (what a mixture that can be!) on both sides of the family. Anyone have any info that can shed some light on either L30 or G-PF2822?

Much thanks,
sdimaria

[Grubbe]

Very interesting! Did any of you take the Family Finder test at FDNA? Their new myOrigins (earlier Population Finder) might reveal where the L came from.

[sparkey]

Hello. I have been typed as having haplogroup L30, with a subgroup of G-PF2822. I'm having a very difficult time getting any info on the subgroup and I wasn't aware that the L group was rare! My ancestry is from Sicily (what a mixture that can be!) on both sides of the family. Anyone have any info that can shed some light on either L30 or G-PF2822?

Much thanks,
sdimaria

To be clear, you are not Haplogroup L, you are Haplogroup G and carry the SNP L30/PF3267/S126. On ISOGG's haplotree nomenclature, its name is G2a2b. PF2822 isn't on the ISOGG tree, so that one doesn't have a name, but FTDNA puts it as a subclade of G-L30>L141>L177>F1193>F1079>PF3252>F1671 (phew), or G2a2b2b1a at ISOGG. If you're reading Maciamo's G page, look for "L177" on the tree, as that's the most specific he goes; he calls it "G2a3b2." I suggest you read Maciamo's page for a good introduction. Wikipedia also has some information on L177 here.

[Ben Van Beurden]

That's right, Sparkey: Sdimaria belongs to subhaplogroup G-L177, a subgroup of macrohaplogroup G. Because of the unreliability of L177 (3 compounds on 3 different locations in the palindromic (bad) area of the Y-chromosome), we have remplaced this SNP by the equivalent PF3359. G-PF2822 is one of the subclades of G-PF3359.
I am the (unpaid) Y-DNA G-PF3359 haplogroup project administrator on FamilyTreeDNA. I sent you a friend request, Sdmaria. I hope that we can exchange data.

[oriental]

I have been thinking about the Gedrosia effect. It is basically the Iranian cultural spread especially with Cyrus the Great Empire which included Baluchistan, Pakistan and up to Egypt and Lydia in Anatolia. Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire. Then the Parthian controlled Persia and then the Genghis Khan conquered the Khwarezm Empire that controlled Persia. So the central part of Iranian cultural was broken up thus Baluchistan (Gedrosia) seem remote from Europe. People in Elam and Indus Valley probably were rich in Haplogroups H and L. They being part of the Persian Empire may have spread around the Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezm

[MtDNA]

At first I was going to say that African Immigration meant that L wouldn't be that rare in Europe during the next century, but then I found out you were talking about Y-dna.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Hi, I'm Y haplogroup L M20. A bit of a shock. I have well recorded English only ancestry. My surname line I've only managed to trace back to the Thames Valley to circa 1720s. No idea how the L got in there or when.

23andMe test proved me positive at M317, but negative to M349, which leaves me pretty isolated here in NW Europe. It could relate to the Pontic Greek M317 cluster. No sign of anything in my autosomes from that part of world, so doesn't look a too recent or direct entry into the line I'm having further tests at FTDNA including the Big Y.

[Sile]

Hi, I'm Y haplogroup L M20. A bit of a shock. I have well recorded English only ancestry. My surname line I've only managed to trace back to the Thames Valley to circa 1720s. No idea how the L got in there or when.

23andMe test proved me positive at M317, but negative to M349, which leaves me pretty isolated here in NW Europe. It could relate to the Pontic Greek M317 cluster. No sign of anything in my autosomes from that part of world, so doesn't look a too recent or direct entry into the line I'm having further tests at FTDNA including the Big Y.

Since TL-P326 where once a union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT

and 100% of T1a-M70 is found in Early Neolithic skeletons in modern Germany, then for L-M20 to be in Europe in the Neolithic times is not a stretch

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Yes, I'm familiar with the hypothesis that L may be connected to early Neolithic Farmers. Without any supportive evidence from ancient DNA so far. It is what it is. One of the problems of having a rare haplogroup, is that I'm unlikely to meet any close cousins, and knowledge about it is very thin.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

... and now that I have my Big Y results, that might just fit. I had 90 novel SNPs. My terminal SNP is L SK1214, believed to have been tested in Iran or Iraq. My nearest Y matches are Pontic Greek, but our TMRCA is 13,000 ybp. Yes, that's right the nearest other Big Y tester to me at the present is 13 kya away.

[Hauteville]

Without aDNA with L there are only hypotesis, an hypotesis could be that L was present in old Europe (like C for example) and it was replaced by the arrival of R, G, E1b1b, T, J...

[Sile]

That's a distribution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#Europe

Without aDNA with L there are only hypotesis, an hypotesis could be that L was present in old Europe (like C for example) and it was replaced by the arrival of R, G, E1b1b, T, J...

so because these ( R, G, E1b1b, T, J.. ) all have ancient skeletons found in Europe, you think there will be no L ??

T and L where once in union...........since T ( ydna ) has been found in Early Neolithic Germany, I expect L will be also found in Europe

[Hauteville]

so because these ( R, G, E1b1b, T, J.. ) all have ancient skeletons found in Europe, you think there will be no L ??

T and L where once in union...........since T ( ydna ) has been found in Early Neolithic Germany, I expect L will be also found in Europe

No I think with new skeletons it's possible to find some very old L, especially because T was founded among LBK.
Well, only other studies of ancient skeletons can answer our question.

[bicicleur]

so because these ( R, G, E1b1b, T, J.. ) all have ancient skeletons found in Europe, you think there will be no L ??

T and L where once in union...........since T ( ydna ) has been found in Early Neolithic Germany, I expect L will be also found in Europe

T and L split some 42600 years ago, so L has nothing to do with the neolithic T1a1.

L-L595 split from L-M22 some 23200 year ago, they may have survived LGM in different refuges.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

whereas L-L595 is SW Asian, L-M22 is European.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Where I am so far. Big Y completed. Waiting for BAM file. Turned out that I had 90 novel SNPs, and terminate L-SK1214. The only other known SK1214 being from a study in SW Pakistan. i last shared common ancestry with the Pontic Greek L1b's 13,000 years ago. The Y haplogroup L phylogenetic tree will have to be redrawn a bit to fit in the new SK1214 lineage to myself and my Ballochi cousin. Our lineage must have diverged a thousand years after L-M317 appeared.

Based on present evidence, I'm thinking that my Y entered Europe quite recently for example, - Roman Empire, Crusades, and my favourite hypothesis, Portuguese venturers.

[Sile]

Where I am so far. Big Y completed. Waiting for BAM file. Turned out that I had 90 novel SNPs, and terminate L-SK1214. The only other known SK1214 being from a study in SW Pakistan. i last shared common ancestry with the Pontic Greek L1b's 13,000 years ago. The Y haplogroup L phylogenetic tree will have to be redrawn a bit to fit in the new SK1214 lineage to myself and my Ballochi cousin. Our lineage must have diverged a thousand years after L-M317 appeared.

Based on present evidence, I'm thinking that my Y entered Europe quite recently for example, - Roman Empire, Crusades, and my favourite hypothesis, Portuguese venturers.

you should probably read this
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0081704
and study the tables which have k-m9 as these will represent some L ydna

I believe you got to the kentish UK area via a Roman Rhaetia legion ( of which a few where formed only in AD times ) which was formed in these eastern alp.

Rhaeti people became the Ladin people in this paper ( Ladin , not Latin )

[A Norfolk L-M20]

and study the tables which have k-m9 as these will represent some L ydna

I believe you got to the kentish UK area via a Roman Rhaetia legion ( of which a few where formed only in AD times ) which was formed in these eastern alp.

Rhaeti people became the Ladin people in this paper ( Ladin , not Latin )

But most European L1b's including particularly the Rhine-Danube cluster of M317, also test positive for M349. I don't. My nearest 111 marker STR is in Eastern Iran. My terminal SNP is has only previously been recorded in SW Pakistan in a Balochi speaker. I share STR's in England with another surname family, who's paternal ancestor during the 1740's, was only 32 miles from my paternal ancestor at that time. No others. The STR evidence suggests TMRCA between us of 800 - 350 years ago. Until more English turn up that match, I can't help but assume a medieval entry into Southern England. It could be earlier, but our Y does not relate to the M349 found in the Rhine / Danube cluster of Y haplogroup L1b.

On this limited evidence, I still hold that my Y was from the region of Iran, and only entered England most likely during the medieval.