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Thread: With what ancient ethnicity do you most identify, and what has DNA told you ?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia View Post
    Roman, obviously.
    Yet Spaniards aren't that much of Roman descent. The main ancestry is Celtiberian, which is the combination of Paleolithic Iberian (Cro-Magnon I2), Neolithic Iberian from the Near East on the southern coasts (E-M78, J2), and Celtic (especially in the centre and north, R1b-P312 and G2a3a). The Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Visigoths, Suebi, Vandals, and Arabs had only a minimal (but accumulative) impact on the Spanish genetic pool. There has never been a major migration of people from Italy to Spain, less so than from Germany, the Levant or North Africa to Spain.
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    Maciamo, it's not a matter of genetic markers. It's culture. I have to do much more with a roman than with a celtiberian, iberian....

    If there's an ancient culture that fits better than others in western Europe, that's Rome. Even a current germanic-speaker would feel more comfortable in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yet Spaniards aren't that much of Roman descent. The main ancestry is Celtiberian, which is the combination of Paleolithic Iberian (Cro-Magnon I2), Neolithic Iberian from the Near East on the southern coasts (E-M78, J2), and Celtic (especially in the centre and north, R1b-P312 and G2a3a). The Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Visigoths, Suebi, Vandals, and Arabs had only a minimal (but accumulative) impact on the Spanish genetic pool. There has never been a major migration of people from Italy to Spain, less so than from Germany, the Levant or North Africa to Spain.
    That's correct, but I would change Arabs for Berbers, and also the P312 is after the basques most strong in Catalonia where the Iberian substratum is more predominant (M167)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But did the autosomal comparison include Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Serbian or Austrian samples ? I suppose that you are referring to the Genetic Atlas comparison on deCODEme, but it doesn't have any samples from the Balkans or Central Europe. It doesn't mean much to be closer to the Icelandic when the alternative is Italian, French, Basque or Orcadian.

    Autosomal results can predict which nation you're related to the closest genetically? If so what do they include as examples and which sites offer the analysis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But did the autosomal comparison include Croatian, Slovenian, Bosnian, Serbian or Austrian samples ? I suppose that you are referring to the Genetic Atlas comparison on deCODEme, but it doesn't have any samples from the Balkans or Central Europe. It doesn't mean much to be closer to the Icelandic when the alternative is Italian, French, Basque or Orcadian.
    Not true.

    There are many public samples now from all over Europe including all the countries you have listed. You are obviously not a member of DecodeMe otherwise you would have known this fact. Regardless, I still match Icelanders at all levels of autosomal DNA ie. at 1Kb, 250 Kb and 5Mb. In fact I match Icelanders better than they match each other most of the time.
    Last edited by rogers; 15-04-10 at 18:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Autosomal results can predict which nation you're related to the closest genetically? If so what do they include as examples and which sites offer the analysis?
    Yes they can. DecodeMe have included reference populations around the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    Not true.

    There are many public samples now from all over Europe including all the countries you have listed. You are obviously not a member of DecodeMe otherwise you would have known this fact. Regardless, I still match Icelanders at all levels of autosomal DNA ie. at 1Kb, 250 Kb and 5Mb. In fact I match Icelanders better than they match each other most of the time.
    I don't know what game you are playing. DeCODEme only has 9 European populations from 6 countries in its Genetic Atlas : Iceland, Orkney, France, Basque, Italy (unspecified Italian, Tuscan and Sardinian), and Russia (Russian and Adygey). The exact same population are used in their Map of kinship.

    So I am not sure where you found your "many public samples from all over Europe". Don't you mean one-to-one comparisons with other customers in the Your Friends section ? That's also possible at 23andMe.

    There are 3 main reasons why such comparisons are unreliable :

    1) Single individual matches are unrepresentative of a whole country. You will sometimes find good matches in one country, but others that are only distant matches. If your 3 best and 3 worst matches are from the same country they even each other out. There is no option at present to make averages for all members from a selected country. The problem has a solution; it's just not available to us yet.

    2) One's best matches vary according to the resolution chosen (fragment size). One's matches at 1Mb aren't the same as at 250Kb or 5Mb. Depending the what you choose your top matches will be in different countries. Some of my best matches at 250Kb (64%) share 0% at 5MB. One person who shares 0.5% at 5MB has only 62.6% at 250Kb. There are so many resolution levels that no consistent ranking can be made. In other words nobody fits neatly into one region.

    3) Interpersonal differences within Europe aren't significant. You are unlikely to find any match at 10Mb or 20Mb unless you are related within a few generations. At 5Mb pretty much everyone shares between 0% and 0.5%. At 1Mb it varies between 18% and 20.5%. At 250Kb it ranges from 62.5 to 64%. Differences are tiny and random. What's the significance of 0.1% more or less in common with someone ?
    Last edited by Maciamo; 16-04-10 at 10:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know what game you are playing. DeCODEme only has 9 European populations from 6 countries in its Genetic Atlas : Iceland, Orkney, France, Basque, Italy (unspecified Italian, Tuscan and Sardinian), and Russia (Russian and Adygey). The exact same population are used in their Map of kinship.
    So I am not sure where you found your "many public samples from all over Europe". Don't you mean one-to-one comparisons with other customers in the Your Friends section ? That's also possible at 23andMe.
    There are 3 main reasons why such comparisons are unreliable :
    1) Single individual matches are unrepresentative of a whole country. You will sometimes find good matches in one country, but others that are only distant matches. If your 3 best and 3 worst matches are from the same country they even each other out. There is no option at present to make averages for all members from a selected country. The problem has a solution; it's just not available to us yet.
    2) One's best matches vary according to the resolution chosen (fragment size). One's matches at 1Mb aren't the same as at 250Kb or 5Mb. Depending the what you choose your top matches will be in different countries. Some of my best matches at 250Kb (64%) share 0% at 5MB. One person who shares 0.5% at 5MB has only 62.6% at 250Kb. There are so many resolution levels that no consistent ranking can be made. In other words nobody fits neatly into one region.
    3) Interpersonal differences within Europe aren't significant. You are unlikely to find any match at 10Mb or 20Mb unless you are related within a few generations. At 5Mb pretty much everyone shares between 0% and 0.5%. At 1Mb it varies between 18% and 20.5%. At 250Kb it ranges from 62.5 to 64%. Differences are tiny and random. What's the significance of 0.1% more or less in common with someone ?
    Absolutely spot-on. There are autosomal DNA mapping studies completed over the last two years that have shown some success in identifying a number of populations regionally, but things are far from 100%.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 16-04-10 at 16:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know what game you are playing. DeCODEme only has 9 European populations from 6 countries in its Genetic Atlas : Iceland, Orkney, France, Basque, Italy (unspecified Italian, Tuscan and Sardinian), and Russia (Russian and Adygey). The exact same population are used in their Map of kinship.

    So I am not sure where you found your "many public samples from all over Europe". Don't you mean one-to-one comparisons with other customers in the Your Friends section ? That's also possible at 23andMe.

    There are 3 main reasons why such comparisons are unreliable :

    1) Single individual matches are unrepresentative of a whole country. You will sometimes find good matches in one country, but others that are only distant matches. If your 3 best and 3 worst matches are from the same country they even each other out. There is no option at present to make averages for all members from a selected country. The problem has a solution; it's just not available to us yet.

    2) One's best matches vary according to the resolution chosen (fragment size). One's matches at 1Mb aren't the same as at 250Kb or 5Mb. Depending the what you choose your top matches will be in different countries. Some of my best matches at 250Kb (64%) share 0% at 5MB. One person who shares 0.5% at 5MB has only 62.6% at 250Kb. There are so many resolution levels that no consistent ranking can be made. In other words nobody fits neatly into one region.

    3) Interpersonal differences within Europe aren't significant. You are unlikely to find any match at 10Mb or 20Mb unless you are related within a few generations. At 5Mb pretty much everyone shares between 0% and 0.5%. At 1Mb it varies between 18% and 20.5%. At 250Kb it ranges from 62.5 to 64%. Differences are tiny and random. What's the significance of 0.1% more or less in common with someone ?
    I am not playing any games. I simply responded to the question in the thread you had created. It was you who sparked a debate with a retort that suggested that my autosomal results through Decodeme were subject to interpretation.

    I am simply stating my results and suggesting that there should be some ancient link between my genetic makeup and that of other Icelandic individuals. What is your problem with that?

    Your first point (Single individual matches are unrepresentative of a whole country). The genetic atlas averages out your 540,000 SNP matches against large population references from countries around the world. My No. 1 match is Iceland out of over 50 countries around the world. I know there are no central European references, this is where you can compare yourself to your friends that accept your invitations to share data. What you failed to realize is that there is a public reference project underway where participants can contribute their data to forming other reference populations. That is what I was referring to.

    Your second point (One's best matches vary according to the resolution chosen (fragment size). No kidding! In fact to be precise your low level (250Kb) matches usually indicate that you are closely related to that gene pool. Higher fragment sizes indicate that you may be related to an individual but not necessarily from that gene pool. Hence the differences found.

    Your last comment "Interpersonal differences within Europe aren't significant". Ofcourse they are!

    My highest matches are: 84.70% @ 1Kb Iceland, 64.6% @250Kb Icelander 21.7% @ 1Mb Icelander, 4.6% @3Mb Icelander, 1.1% @ 5Mb Icelander. I think even "blind Freddie" could see some sort of trend there?

    I also have a 23andme Finnish RF cousin that I share 0.8% @ 5Mb. Many other participants have also correlated percentage sharing @ 5Mb and predicted RF cousins through 23andme. I have seen values that vary from 0.6% to 2.0%.

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    Given that I'm half Jooo half Brit, I identify both as one of Aharon's descendants (J1c3d Kohen) and Germanic matrilineal (J1c2).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    My highest matches are: 84.70% @ 1Kb Iceland, 64.6% @250Kb Icelander 21.7% @ 1Mb Icelander, 4.6% @3Mb Icelander, 1.1% @ 5Mb Icelander. I think even "blind Freddie" could see some sort of trend there?

    I also have a 23andme Finnish RF cousin that I share 0.8% @ 5Mb. Many other participants have also correlated percentage sharing @ 5Mb and predicted RF cousins through 23andme. I have seen values that vary from 0.6% to 2.0%.
    How did you compare results at 1Kb ?

    Are you sure you were not adopted ? How can a pure Croatian get such high percentage of similarity with Nordics ? I don't have any match as high as that. At 1MB my matches in Europe are between 17% and 20%. I only have 6 matches above 20% (1 Dutch and 5 Scandinavians), but even my highest at 1MB (21.4%) is only 63.9% at 250Kb and 0.6% at 5MB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How did you compare results at 1Kb ?

    Are you sure you were not adopted ? How can a pure Croatian get such high percentage of similarity with Nordics ? I don't have any match as high as that. At 1MB my matches in Europe are between 17% and 20%. I only have 6 matches above 20% (1 Dutch and 5 Scandinavians), but even my highest at 1MB (21.4%) is only 63.9% at 250Kb and 0.6% at 5MB.

    The global similarity is done at 1kb. If you go to the European global similarity map these are done at 1Kb.

    LOL no, I am not adopted. I have really have no idea but I am trying to work it out. This is obviously something ancient (not recent), perhaps Viking? Strange thing is that I have a nordid phenotype as well. I know of another half Croat/British who also has a very high matches with Icelandic. More samples need to be assessed to see if this is a general trend or just something to do with my family.

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    I am Irish so obviously I identify most with Irish ethnicity and would view Scotland as being the closest country culturally to us. Maybe thats because physically it is the closest country to us!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    The global similarity is done at 1kb. If you go to the European global similarity map these are done at 1Kb.
    Yes, but how do you see it for people in the Friends section ? Or do you mean that the default Icelander is your best match among the 200+ individuals available for comparison as "public friends" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    LOL no, I am not adopted. I have really have no idea but I am trying to work it out. This is obviously something ancient (not recent), perhaps Viking? Strange thing is that I have a nordid phenotype as well. I know of another half Croat/British who also has a very high matches with Icelandic. More samples need to be assessed to see if this is a general trend or just something to do with my family.
    What is strange is that you are closer to this/these Icelander(s) than most Scandinavians would be. Two unrelated individuals from a same country would get about 19 or 20% of similarity at 1MB, not 21.7%. How can you be closer to Icelanders than other Scandinavians or perhaps even some Icelanders themselves ?

    Even weirder is that you should have a high similarity with a Finn too. Finns are very different genetically from Scandinavians due to their partial Siberian ancestry and very limited Indo-European admixture (R1a and R1b). All my close matches are Scandinavians or Dutch, but none are Finns. I am closer to Italians and Spaniards than to Finns.

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    I also feel a certain connection to Slavs given that J1c introduced Balto-Slavic languages along with W (mtDNA of course).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, but how do you see it for people in the Friends section ? Or do you mean that the default Icelander is your best match among the 200+ individuals available for comparison as "public friends" ?



    What is strange is that you are closer to this/these Icelander(s) than most Scandinavians would be. Two unrelated individuals from a same country would get about 19 or 20% of similarity at 1MB, not 21.7%. How can you be closer to Icelanders than other Scandinavians or perhaps even some Icelanders themselves ?

    Even weirder is that you should have a high similarity with a Finn too. Finns are very different genetically from Scandinavians due to their partial Siberian ancestry and very limited Indo-European admixture (R1a and R1b). All my close matches are Scandinavians or Dutch, but none are Finns. I am closer to Italians and Spaniards than to Finns.

    AFAIK the global similarity compares you to all reference populations at the 1Kb level. This does not include any friends or public friends. So the my No. 1 ranking with Iceland would be a comparison with the whole reference population.

    My Finnish match is actually a known predicted cousin from 23andme. I have looked into this and spoken to her at length via email. We have concluded that it is a distant relationship 1630's possibly during the "Thirty Years War" in Europe where Finnish troops were deployed in battle with mainland European Catholics.

    I really don't know why I match Scandinavians closer than they match themselves. I have posted my results in at number of forums including DNA forums and no one seems to have a clue except for the standard remark
    "are you sure you are pure Croatian?" I have very high Runs of Homozygosity (ROHs) 68.616% which is higher then most Finns. This tells you that you may be from a bottle-necked population. Coastal Croatia is very mountainous and protected. Perhaps there are pockets where ancient peoples were bottle-necked and interbred extensively. These original people could have been similar genetically to Scandinavians? Or the only other way to explain my high match with Icelanders would be to theorize that there were "recent" (500-1000 years) visits by Viking traders and that they interbred with the locals?

    You need to interpret the results carefully as well. If you look at the chromosome map some of the bands are in ancient regions that are common to a lot of Europeans. However even when all of this is subtracted I still end up matching Icelanders better than any other population.

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    Something is missing here. Are you sure your whole ancestry is Croatian ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    AFAIK the global similarity compares you to all reference populations at the 1Kb level. This does not include any friends or public friends. So the my No. 1 ranking with Iceland would be a comparison with the whole reference population.
    Where did you read that there were more than one individual used per reference population ? How would they even out differences in alleles ?


    We have concluded that it is a distant relationship 1630's possibly during the "Thirty Years War" in Europe where Finnish troops were deployed in battle with mainland European Catholics.
    I am very sceptical about that kind of explanation. Even if a Finnish soldier did have a child in Croatia and you descend from this person, there would be almost no genetic impact on you after so many generations. After 12 generations he would be just 1 out of 4096 ancestors from that generation. I know someone who is 1/8 Chinese and 7/8 European and doesn't look Asian at all. What's 1/4096 or 1/8192 ?

    I have very high Runs of Homozygosity (ROHs) 68.616% which is higher then most Finns. This tells you that you may be from a bottle-necked population. Coastal Croatia is very mountainous and protected. Perhaps there are pockets where ancient peoples were bottle-necked and interbred extensively. These original people could have been similar genetically to Scandinavians? Or the only other way to explain my high match with Icelanders would be to theorize that there were "recent" (500-1000 years) visits by Viking traders and that they interbred with the locals?
    Croatia is an interesting country for geneticists indeed. In terms of Y-DNA and mtDNA there are big differences between the various parts of Croatia, and sometimes islands that are completely different from the next island.

    In south-west Croatia, close to Slovenia, there is a lot of R1a and R1b, in addition to the more widespread I2a2. MtDNA indicates a major migration of Indo-European people to the region, notably on the islands of Cres and Krk. Overall, Krk has about 50% of Indo-European Y-DNA (R1a, R1b) and 25% of Indo-European mtDNA (I, W, U2, U3, U4). The rest being mostly Paleolithic European haplogroups it is not dissimilar to the pattern found in Scandinavia of R1a + R1b + I1. You just need to replace I1 by I2a2. The Indo-European element date from the same period and probably have the same source. If all hg I people were genetically close then it would explain the closeness between south-west Croatians and Scandinavians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Something is missing here. Are you sure your whole ancestry is Croatian ?
    Are you trying to be funny?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where did you read that there were more than one individual used per reference population ? How would they even out differences in alleles ?
    This was discussed in DNA forums and on the community threads on the Decodeme web site. The staff at Decodeme confirm that it is a comparison against the entire reference population.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am very sceptical about that kind of explanation. Even if a Finnish soldier did have a child in Croatia and you descend from this person, there would be almost no genetic impact on you after so many generations. After 12 generations he would be just 1 out of 4096 ancestors from that generation. I know someone who is 1/8 Chinese and 7/8 European and doesn't look Asian at all. What's 1/4096 or 1/8192 ?
    Not quite true. This was based on a low recombination region on a chromosome. Even after twelve generations there will be some HIRs (half identical regions) along chromosomes that get passed down. My HIR with this Finnish lady is almost 6cM and involves 1326 SNPs. Too big to be ancient.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Croatia is an interesting country for geneticists indeed. In terms of Y-DNA and mtDNA there are big differences between the various parts of Croatia, and sometimes islands that are completely different from the next island.

    In south-west Croatia, close to Slovenia, there is a lot of R1a and R1b, in addition to the more widespread I2a2. MtDNA indicates a major migration of Indo-European people to the region, notably on the islands of Cres and Krk. Overall, Krk has about 50% of Indo-European Y-DNA (R1a, R1b) and 25% of Indo-European mtDNA (I, W, U2, U3, U4). The rest being mostly Paleolithic European haplogroups it is not dissimilar to the pattern found in Scandinavia of R1a + R1b + I1. You just need to replace I1 by I2a2. The Indo-European element date from the same period and probably have the same source. If all hg I people were genetically close then it would explain the closeness between south-west Croatians and Scandinavians.
    Yes I agree. I2a2 is a very young subclade 2,500 years by some estimates. I don't think haplogroups have anything to do with my result with Icelanders. It could be something very regional ie. other Croats might be entirely different to me. I have a friend who is half Croatian (mother's side) and half Swedish (father's side). He hails from a town in Croatia that is very close to where my ancestors come from. He recently told me that on his mothers side of the family there are last names that look Icelandic in origin from hundreds of years ago. I am not sure weather to take this with a grain of salt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where did you read that there were more than one individual used per reference population ? How would they even out differences in alleles ?




    I am very sceptical about that kind of explanation. Even if a Finnish soldier did have a child in Croatia and you descend from this person, there would be almost no genetic impact on you after so many generations. After 12 generations he would be just 1 out of 4096 ancestors from that generation. I know someone who is 1/8 Chinese and 7/8 European and doesn't look Asian at all. What's 1/4096 or 1/8192 ?



    Croatia is an interesting country for geneticists indeed. In terms of Y-DNA and mtDNA there are big differences between the various parts of Croatia, and sometimes islands that are completely different from the next island.

    In south-west Croatia, close to Slovenia, there is a lot of R1a and R1b, in addition to the more widespread I2a2. MtDNA indicates a major migration of Indo-European people to the region, notably on the islands of Cres and Krk. Overall, Krk has about 50% of Indo-European Y-DNA (R1a, R1b) and 25% of Indo-European mtDNA (I, W, U2, U3, U4). The rest being mostly Paleolithic European haplogroups it is not dissimilar to the pattern found in Scandinavia of R1a + R1b + I1. You just need to replace I1 by I2a2. The Indo-European element date from the same period and probably have the same source. If all hg I people were genetically close then it would explain the closeness between south-west Croatians and Scandinavians.
    Actually, on Krk there is probably ~15% of I1.

  22. #47
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    As Segia well said people in my country tend to identify themselves as "roman/latin" due to our predominatly linguistic heritage from latin and the fact that most of them aren't aware of the scientific researches on our genetic pool.

    Personally, I don't tend to identify myself with ethnicities but with nationalities: Portugueses, italians, frenchs, andorrans...

    Greetings.
    Last edited by ^ lynx ^; 13-05-10 at 17:40. Reason: spelling

  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    My paternal DNA results were surprising. My 6th grandfather of my surname reportedly came from Limerick, Ireland to the US in the early 19th century. I expected my DNA results to be typical Irish/ celtic then - R1b plus. Instead my results were Y-DNA I2a which I guess is a rare haplo to have, found largely in eastern Europe.
    I believe at one time Ireland was a haven for Norse raiders so perhaps one of your distant ancestors was the product of one of the Norse from Kiev and picked up the I2a from there?

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    I identify as Norwegian but I most likely have some Scottish, German, Saami and Finnish ancestry.
    In 1702 about 40% of Trondheim's population were German and some 100,000 east Norwegians have Forest Finn ancestry and large groups of Scots immigrated to western Norway in the 16th to the 18th century, so many people in Norway is bound to have some non-Norwegian ancestry one way or another.


    At 23andMe the DNA company I had myself tested, they now include a tool 'Ancestry finder', here is my results with 4 grandparents from the same country at 5cm.

    Norway 2.7%
    United Kingdom 0.5%
    Sweden 0.4%
    Switzerland 0.2%
    Russia 0.2%
    Germany 0.2%
    Finland 0.2%
    Denmark 0.2%
    Bulgaria 0.2%
    Netherlands 0.1%
    Italy 0.1%

  25. #50
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: USA - Texas



    I used to think of myself as mostly of Germanic heritage, since I paternal g-g-g-grandfather immigrated from there, and for several generations married women of Germanic heritage. One set of my maternal g-grandparents were German speakers from what is now the Czech Republic.
    However after researching my genealogy I discovered that about half of my ancestors were of Anglo/Norman and Anglo/Celtic origin with a fairly large Scots representation.
    I still haven't received the results of deep clade testing from FTDNA or my MTDAN so all I can say is my Y-DNA is R1b1b2 M-269, which could be pretty much any place in Western Europe.

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