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Thread: Genetic of Piedmont and Lombardy

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    Genetic of Piedmont and Lombardy

    What would be the main haplogroups of the Y-DNA present in Piedmont and Lombardy?

    I am interested because my Italian blood comes from those regions

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    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    R1b (S28/U152) mainly...

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    But what is the frequency of the other haplogroups? as the I, J, R1a, etc.

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    J2 (Balkan?) is also significant and there is also some I1 and minor frequencies of R1a. The far Alpine regions of Italy are substantially more Paleolithic compared to the rest of the country.

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    R1b is mainly over 50 percent.

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    Exactly, but do not have a figure somewhat "closed" on the frequency of these haplogroups more or less like that shown in the section of the frequencies of haplogroups by country and shows that table ..

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    Highest frequency of R1b has been found in Val di Non,North-Eastern Italy(73%), and Garfognana, north-west, at 76%.

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  10. #10
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordobesforever View Post
    Seems to be.

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    Piedmont is Gallo-Roman?
    I'm also thinking about the same thing..

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    My male roots are from Northern Italy (Trento) with origins in Verona, and I am R-U106. It seems to belong to the lombard invasors, whom came from Scandinavia and current North Germany.

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    Thumbs up thank you

    Thank you for your contribution. you are unique.

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    have some docs about that but of diverse origins and compilations (not 100% reliable I am afraid of):
    concerning Y-R1b it seams that the heavier concentration [more than 55%) would be in Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, North Piemonte, Trentino, extreme W-Veneto - [45%-55%]: Central Piemonte, extreme S-W Lombardia, Friul, C-Veneto, E-Emilia-Toscana, Marche - [35%-45%]: S-Toscana-N-Lazzio- >< [25-35%]: remnant = Southern Italia, extreme N-Sardigna + W-Liguria, at the exception of: the bulk of Sardigna, Sicila, coastal central Campania (Napoli) where Y-R1b would be under 25% - as a whole, for R1b, N-W Italia and N-E Italia are not so typical as C-N Italia (Lombardia-Emilia, where the Celts was sthe strongest)- a survey (limited sample) showed 73% of Y-P*-R1a in N-Lmbardia, 76% of Y-P*-R1a in Abbruzzi, between N-Toscana and Emilia - sure P*-R1a contains other HGs than R1b but it is evident that R1b is by far the strongest componant of it - Even if not totally reliable, these %s seams making sense - for N-Sardigna, we know that Corsica is rich enough for Y-R1b (about 60%) -
    but all these %s are confusing in the way that the quality of Y-R1b is not the same at all: more eastern upstream SNPs in Southern italia (linked to HT15) and more atlantic or western downstream SNPs in Northern Italia (akin to HT35) - I suppose that, even if come through South, R1b forms of N-Italia knew a completley different story as opposed to the southern ones -

    Y-R1a seams almost absent from N-W Italia (0% in a survey about Liguria), present in Trentino (7%) and strong enough in Eastern-Veneto-Friul (9%: C-Veneti?) - for Piemonte and Lombardia proper I have no source -
    I have nothing else about N-Italia and I regret it -
    it would be an error considering that Piemonte should be half way between Liguria and Lombardia: I suppose Piemonte is closer to Lombarida even if surely Y-RU106 is rarer in Piemonte, the same as Y-I1, being these markers germanic markers as a whole - Liguria is a very coastal area, and Genova in the Middle Ages was a mighty maritime kingdom with far relations and exchanges -
    sorry for this poor contribution, but Italy lacks the great surveys made for Iberia





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    after checking, I just temper a little the opposition between north an south R1b (HT35><HT15), because, except Apulia (Pugglie), R1b in Italy is closer to the western modele (U152 in first position) than it is in Balkans or Greece or Anatolia or Ukraina - only Sicila and Umbria (central) stay in the middle - sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    have some docs about that but of diverse origins and compilations (not 100% reliable I am afraid of):
    concerning Y-R1b it seams that the heavier concentration [more than 55%) would be in Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, North Piemonte, Trentino, extreme W-Veneto - [45%-55%]: Central Piemonte, extreme S-W Lombardia, Friul, C-Veneto, E-Emilia-Toscana, Marche - [35%-45%]: S-Toscana-N-Lazzio- >< [25-35%]: remnant = Southern Italia, extreme N-Sardigna + W-Liguria, at the exception of: the bulk of Sardigna, Sicila, coastal central Campania (Napoli) where Y-R1b would be under 25% - as a whole, for R1b, N-W Italia and N-E Italia are not so typical as C-N Italia (Lombardia-Emilia, where the Celts was sthe strongest)- a survey (limited sample) showed 73% of Y-P*-R1a in N-Lmbardia, 76% of Y-P*-R1a in Abbruzzi, between N-Toscana and Emilia - sure P*-R1a contains other HGs than R1b but it is evident that R1b is by far the strongest componant of it - Even if not totally reliable, these %s seams making sense - for N-Sardigna, we know that Corsica is rich enough for Y-R1b (about 60%) -
    but all these %s are confusing in the way that the quality of Y-R1b is not the same at all: more eastern upstream SNPs in Southern italia (linked to HT15) and more atlantic or western downstream SNPs in Northern Italia (akin to HT35) - I suppose that, even if come through South, R1b forms of N-Italia knew a completley different story as opposed to the southern ones -

    Y-R1a seams almost absent from N-W Italia (0% in a survey about Liguria), present in Trentino (7%) and strong enough in Eastern-Veneto-Friul (9%: C-Veneti?) - for Piemonte and Lombardia proper I have no source -
    I have nothing else about N-Italia and I regret it -
    it would be an error considering that Piemonte should be half way between Liguria and Lombardia: I suppose Piemonte is closer to Lombarida even if surely Y-RU106 is rarer in Piemonte, the same as Y-I1, being these markers germanic markers as a whole - Liguria is a very coastal area, and Genova in the Middle Ages was a mighty maritime kingdom with far relations and exchanges -
    sorry for this poor contribution, but Italy lacks the great surveys made for Iberia





    Northern italy is originally gallo-iberic and not gallo-roman, the piedmonte area has more gallo-iberic ( atlantic type) than central or eastern north italy. which is why you see more U-106 in that central and eastern areas.
    Trento is influenced by tyrolese and Ladins , both in majority with the G type.
    In a 2007 paper on the 9 illyrian tribes, north east italy had 62% R1b M173 ( i do not know the new code) tapering to 27% in western veneto, clearly a sign that the "atlantic" marker reached this area with influence.

    The R1b in apulia area is the M173 type which is at 17% and must have some of this Illyrian marker ( messapics)
    As for the rest of north east italy ( not including their alpine area, then its
    62% R1b M173
    9% J2 M172
    10% E3b1 M78
    1% I1b P37 .............these are the markers used in 2007. Also G, T, R1a, J1 and any others where not mentioned, either because they where alpine or ?

    Ftdna has a project team called AlpGen , which has all the alpine people, maybe they could shed more light on the subject.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    [QUOTE=zanipolo;396921]Northern italy is originally gallo-iberic and not gallo-roman, the piedmonte area has more gallo-iberic ( atlantic type) than central or eastern north italy. which is why you see more U-106 in that central and eastern areas.
    Trento is influenced by tyrolese and Ladins , both in majority with the G type.
    In a 2007 paper on the 9 illyrian tribes, north east italy had 62% R1b M173 ( i do not know the new code) tapering to 27% in western veneto, clearly a sign that the "atlantic" marker reached this area with influence.

    interesting, thanks Zanipolofor these local details - as a whole, the coastal regions of NW and NE Italy are different enough from the moutainous parts (not too hard to understand)
    Zanipolo, just a problem of naming: I prefer do not use terms as Gallo-Iberic or Gallo-Roman for genetical determined populations, keeping these words aside for dialects distinctions (and yet, 'gallo-iberic' is of poor utility in this case)

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    if I am not wrong 'M173' is just the marker of Y-R1, not more precise. Can somebody confirm?

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;396923]
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Northern italy is originally gallo-iberic and not gallo-roman, the piedmonte area has more gallo-iberic ( atlantic type) than central or eastern north italy. which is why you see more U-106 in that central and eastern areas.
    Trento is influenced by tyrolese and Ladins , both in majority with the G type.
    In a 2007 paper on the 9 illyrian tribes, north east italy had 62% R1b M173 ( i do not know the new code) tapering to 27% in western veneto, clearly a sign that the "atlantic" marker reached this area with influence.

    interesting, thanks Zanipolofor these local details - as a whole, the coastal regions of NW and NE Italy are different enough from the moutainous parts (not too hard to understand)
    Zanipolo, just a problem of naming: I prefer do not use terms as Gallo-Iberic or Gallo-Roman for genetical determined populations, keeping these words aside for dialects distinctions (and yet, 'gallo-iberic' is of poor utility in this case)
    Italian historians say, before the "invasion" of foreign tribes, etruscans, veneti, lombards etc etc , all north italy was Ligures people. In the northeast these where the eugenai ( tribes like camuni, stoeni etc etc) , these are ligures people, who are gallic-iberian. This is whi I said gallo-iberian, this is even shown in roman text as transalpine gauls
    Note: iberian was originally only from valencia northwards ( basically catalan and navarese areas of spain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    if I am not wrong 'M173' is just the marker of Y-R1, not more precise. Can somebody confirm?
    It would be R1b1c M269 with ..according to the Occum's razor requiring the following as these are in majority in the area in question
    DYS390 = 23
    DYS391 = 10
    DYS392 = 14

    this will also help , as its in the same locale
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7517680800187X

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    have some docs about that but of diverse origins and compilations (not 100% reliable I am afraid of):
    concerning Y-R1b it seams that the heavier concentration [more than 55%) would be in Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, North Piemonte, Trentino, extreme W-Veneto - [45%-55%]: Central Piemonte, extreme S-W Lombardia, Friul, C-Veneto, E-Emilia-Toscana, Marche - [35%-45%]: S-Toscana-N-Lazzio- >< [25-35%]: remnant = Southern Italia, extreme N-Sardigna + W-Liguria, at the exception of: the bulk of Sardigna, Sicila, coastal central Campania (Napoli) where Y-R1b would be under 25% - as a whole, for R1b, N-W Italia and N-E Italia are not so typical as C-N Italia (Lombardia-Emilia, where the Celts was sthe strongest)- a survey (limited sample) showed 73% of Y-P*-R1a in N-Lmbardia, 76% of Y-P*-R1a in Abbruzzi, between N-Toscana and Emilia - sure P*-R1a contains other HGs than R1b but it is evident that R1b is by far the strongest componant of it - Even if not totally reliable, these %s seams making sense - for N-Sardigna, we know that Corsica is rich enough for Y-R1b (about 60%) -
    but all these %s are confusing in the way that the quality of Y-R1b is not the same at all: more eastern upstream SNPs in Southern italia (linked to HT15) and more atlantic or western downstream SNPs in Northern Italia (akin to HT35) - I suppose that, even if come through South, R1b forms of N-Italia knew a completley different story as opposed to the southern ones -

    Y-R1a seams almost absent from N-W Italia (0% in a survey about Liguria), present in Trentino (7%) and strong enough in Eastern-Veneto-Friul (9%: C-Veneti?) - for Piemonte and Lombardia proper I have no source -
    I have nothing else about N-Italia and I regret it -
    it would be an error considering that Piemonte should be half way between Liguria and Lombardia: I suppose Piemonte is closer to Lombarida even if surely Y-RU106 is rarer in Piemonte, the same as Y-I1, being these markers germanic markers as a whole - Liguria is a very coastal area, and Genova in the Middle Ages was a mighty maritime kingdom with far relations and exchanges -
    sorry for this poor contribution, but Italy lacks the great surveys made for Iberia




    You mean Garfagnana with 76pc R1b.

    Abruzzi is much further south and has barely half of this level of that haplogroup.

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