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Thread: Study confirms Indo-European origin of U4 and U5 in Scandinavia

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Post Study confirms Indo-European origin of U4 and U5 in Scandinavia

    This is a 2009 study already discussed before. I only noticed the list of mtDNA results now though.

    Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians

    Two populations were studied here. The first is Neolithic/Chalcolithic from the Frälsegården site (Funnel Beaker, 3500-2500 BCE) in Sweden. The three results were typical of what I expected from Near-Eastern farmers : J, T and H.

    All the other results, 20 persons in total, come from sites in Gotland, Sweden, and are from the later bronze-age Pitted Ware (2800-2000 BCE), also known as Corded-Ware or Battle-Axe culture. This is the culture that I linked to the expansion of R1a1a from the Russian forest-steppe to central Europe and Finno-Scania. Now this is very interesting because these bronze-age newcomers belong to very different haplogroups : U4 (5 samples), U5 or U5a (3 of each), as well as one V, one K, and one T (+ two unidentified haplogroups). This is in perfect accordance with the Indo-European haplogroups I predicted based on other studies.

    Note the absence of haplogroup H in the 20 samples from Gotland. Nowadays H makes up about 45% of the Scandinavian lineages. U2, U3, U4 and U5 total 16% in Sweden and Norway and 22% in Denmark. It's hard to tell and Near-Eastern from Indo-European T and K apart, but it looks like approximately 2/3 of the modern Scandinavian maternal lineages could be of Neolithic or Paleolithic origin, while 1/3 would be later Indo-European arrivals.

    The only occurrence of lactase persistence was obviously found among the Pitted/Corded-Ware sample.
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    בלי עין הרע Semitic Duwa's Avatar
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    Interesting...Do you make a difference between the agricultural revolution and the spread of Indo-European languages from the Anatolian Urheimat?

    I personally consider both Kurgan and Anatolian Urheimats.

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    J mt ( Anatolian Urheimats) is associated to R1a (Kurgan) and U mt to R1b , H mt is Paleolithic
    Nico

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    בלי עין הרע Semitic Duwa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    J mt ( Anatolian Urheimats) is associated to R1a (Kurgan) and U mt to R1b , H mt is Paleolithic
    I thought that J was associated to R1b:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    I thought that J was associated to R1b:
    Isn't that a map of mitochondrial DNA ? R1b is Y-chromosome.

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    בלי עין הרע Semitic Duwa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A ke bono kane kotto View Post
    Isn't that a map of mitochondrial DNA ? R1b is Y-chromosome.
    I'm talking about the spread.

    We are in the mtDNA forum aren't we

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    hey yes Duwa yes sorry not R1a you are right Duwa : J mt is associated to R1b that 's OK !!
    (anatolians Indo europeans farmers)
    Last edited by willy; 20-04-10 at 23:40.

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    Have I got this correct? From the evidence of both Malmstrom et al [2009] and Keyser et al [2009], we should now regard U5a1 as being of Indo-European origin, and it got to Scandinavia via this 'Kurgan' route?

    I always thought it was the oldest 'native' European Mtdna haplogroup.

    What about H5? Do we now regard that as Indo-European too? The distribution in Caucasus would fit.

    I would welcome some help on this, please.
    Last edited by Yorkie; 16-10-10 at 00:51.

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    Since nobody seems to want to answer the questions I pose above [or in one case, respond to emails] I will answer it myself. Don't mean to sound petulant...

    The thread is slightly confusing. After some research, I find that Pitted Ware culture is not the same as Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture. Rather, it is earlier and hunter-gatherer in nature, though the Scandinavians regard it as Neolithic. Both U4 and U5 are not strictly of Indo-European origin- they remain the predominant MtDNA haplogroups of the northern hunter-gatherers. More U4 and U5 was brought by Indo-Europeans into Scandinavia later, but U4 and U5 are not 'Indo-European' in origin to reiterate, and Pitted Ware culture is not quite the same as Battle Axe/Corded Ware.

    So, despite their hunter-gatherer origins, U5 and U4, have also been carried to Scandinavia by Kurgan people [Malmstrom et al, 2009], and eastwards from the Steppes by Kurgan people into the gene-pool of Siberian nomads [Keyser at al, 2009].

    I am pleased to see that my own Mtdna haplogroup, U5a1, is found in these Siberian Kurgan nomads. It was also found in Bernician Anglian remains by Topf et al fairly recently, so it gets about a bit.

    The evidence for the 'Kurgan hypothesis' seems to be mounting at the expense of the 'Anatolian farming hypothesis' and the unutterably ludicrous 'Indigenous Indian Aryans' hypothesis. Re the latter in particular; work by Malmstrom and Keyser must surely be additional nails in the coffin of that politically biased and spurious concept. There should no longer be any hesitation in people declaring a belief in the 'Aryan', 'Indo-European' or 'Kurgan' [call it what you will] migrations/invasions. This has nothing to do with Far-Right political ideology but rather solid linguistic, archaelogical and genetic evidence for the Aryans of the Steppes. When historians of the calibre of Britain's Michael Wood, and Population Geneticists of the stamp of Spencer Wells of the National Geographic Project line up on the side of the 'Kurgan hypothesis' it is time for the opposition to worry.
    Last edited by Yorkie; 17-10-10 at 23:58.

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    No worries, Yorkie. That's a very interesting information. I appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    No worries, Yorkie. That's a very interesting information. I appreciate it.
    I felt that I had to point out that Pitted Ware and Corded Ware/Battle Axe cultures are not quite the same thing. Maciamo, whose knowledge I genuinely respect, has on this occasion seemingly conflated the two cultures.

    The thing is though, even though U4 and U5 are essentially hunter-gatherer Mtdna, both haplogroups were carried into Scandinavia at a later date too by the Aryan invaders, and to reiterate, eastwards into the gene-pool of Siberian and Kazackstan Kurgan nomads. They are therefore Mtdna that is part of the mix of the Aryans.

    I seem to recall Maciamo mentioning on a recent thread that H5 was a candidate for an Indo-European marker. My father is H5 Mtdna, and I'd like to see the evidence for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I felt that I had to point out that Pitted Ware and Corded Ware/Battle Axe cultures are not quite the same thing. Maciamo, whose knowledge I genuinely respect, has on this occasion seemingly conflated the two cultures.

    The thing is though, even though U4 and U5 are essentially hunter-gatherer Mtdna, both haplogroups were carried into Scandinavia at a later date too by the Aryan invaders, and to reiterate, eastwards into the gene-pool of Siberian and Kazackstan Kurgan nomads. They are therefore Mtdna that is part of the mix of the Aryans.

    I seem to recall Maciamo mentioning on a recent thread that H5 was a candidate for an Indo-European marker. My father is H5 Mtdna, and I'd like to see the evidence for this.
    Well, I'm still waiting for some results to be revealed regarding Y-DNA from the funnelbeaker culture. There is a research currently going at a university in Germany regarding that. I'm very curious about the results. It'd be very interesting comparing that with the mitochondrial DNA. I'm kind expecting Haplogroup I1, however, part of me also expects that we might get a bit of a surprise result.

    Of course, what it all boils down is the question of to what degree the modern population of Scandinavia is descendended from the aboriginal population...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, I'm still waiting for some results to be revealed regarding Y-DNA from the funnelbeaker culture. There is a research currently going at a university in Germany regarding that. I'm very curious about the results. It'd be very interesting comparing that with the mitochondrial DNA. I'm kind expecting Haplogroup I1, however, part of me also expects that we might get a bit of a surprise result.

    Of course, what it all boils down is the question of to what degree the modern population of Scandinavia is descendended from the aboriginal population...
    Yes, I hope it is mainly I1, but I'm biased as that is the haplogroup of my Maternal Grandfather. If it is I1 that dominates, it should be largely the 23 at 390 and 13 at 462 variety, one would think.

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