Origin of G2a

[secherbernard]

Hello Maciamo,

On the Eupedia web site, there is written this:

L'âge de G2a combiné à sa continuité géographique de l'Anatolie et la Théssalie vers la péninsule italienne, la Sardaigne, le sud et le centre de la France et l'est de l'Espagne indique clairement que G2a est lié à la culture de la Céramique cardiale (5000-1500 BCE).
Une introduction de G en Europe à l'époque néolithique correspondrait indubitablement à G2a3, qui est de loin la branche la plus courante et la plus diversifiée en Europe.

Can you give, please, more details about the link of G2a haplogroup and cardium spread during european neolithic ? Is there any evidence for that, or some paper about it? What are your sources ?

[Semitic Duwa]

Are you doing this to point Willy out of the lot?

[G2a_Adige]

I am one of G2a and G2a's origin is North West Caucasus mostly Adige origin people.

[secherbernard]

I am one of G2a and G2a's origin is North West Caucasus mostly Adige origin people.

And when they spread in Europe ?

[Aristander]

I found this link a while back and remember that there was some information about G2.

http://hauridna.com/haplogroups/haplogroup-g/

A lot of this same information is available right here in Eupedia, in fact the map in this article is from here.

[secherbernard]

I found this link a while back and remember that there was some information about G2.

http://hauridna.com/haplogroups/haplogroup-g/

A lot of this same information is available right here in Eupedia, in fact the map in this article is from here.

Tanks for the link. It confirms what I said in the first post:

Haplogroup G probably originated near the Caucasus Mountains, where it has its greatest modern concentration and diversity. Its members dispersed into central Asia, Europe and the Middle East during the Neolithic expansion.

and

Haplogroup G represents one of the significant non-Indo-European indigenous populations of the ancient Middle East.

But are there any scientific paper about this ? What is the source of this information ?

[how yes no 2]

Haplogroup G probably originated near the Caucasus Mountains, where it has its greatest modern concentration and diversity. Its members dispersed into central Asia, Europe and the Middle East during the Neolithic expansion.

maximum frequency does not tell us anything about distant past and place of origin... that is nonsense...
does R1a originate from east Europe, does R1b origin from west Europe... they do not actually...people tend to move around searching for better life space...

[willy]

Haplogroups G2a3a / G2a3b1 (may be more G2a3a) seem to be correlated to the Hurrians who expanded in Northern Syria, Caucasus, Zagros (where in addition with other tribes formed the Mittani and the Kassites) and when the original Hittites (the Nesites of Kanesh) were weakened due to internal political strife, the Hurrians took the opportunity and entered Minor Asia. That’s why we have Later Hittite royal names of Hurrian origin, like Urshi-Teshub, taking over. Only latter with the Kingdom of Kizzuwatna and the Luwians coming to power were the Hurrians pushed south and southwestern to the Aegean and the Mediterranean shores of Anatolia, where they created people of mixed origin like the Cilicians, the Lycians, the Pisidians, the Sidites etc. by merging with the Luwian original stock that was settled there. Anyway the Etruscans seem also have an Hurrian origin (the language is very similar) . G2a3a and G2a3b are 4000 -5000 (maximum) years old . G2a3a from the sea route are more Mediterraneans as the Greeks or the Etruscans ? as I said so this is NOT completely clear because this culture who gave birth to the nation of Etruscans who in later times was separated in northern and southern Etruscans. The southern were destroyed by Roman conquest, but the northern still survive (racially speaking) in Raetia, a canton of Switzerland, where they speak the Raetoromanic language, a mix of some Etruscan with Latin. For example they have the wor Zinake and the Etruscans had it too (it’s the equivalent of Tinake in Hurrian). They also have words with Etruscan suffixes even nowadays. BUT : the Raetian descendants in Switzerland seem to be G2a3b1 (FTDNA clusters) and NOT G2a3a1 so why the Greeks are G2a3a1 and apparently NOT the supposed G2a3b1 Etruscans ?

A team of G2a3b1 among G2a1 (North Caucasus "Indo Iranians" as the actual Ossetians who are speaking an Indo Iranian language - 60% of G men) came to Europe probably ? by the continent via Central Europe during the bronze age or they were may be associated (or were a component among them) later to the Alans (Sarmatians) and confederate to some Germanic tribes during the recent invasions of the West .. ? This is may be why some G2a3b1 are found within Germanic people of Netherlands ? All these hypothesis are surely NOT exclusive ...

About the Hurrians : the discovery of a sophisticated city with monumental architecture, plumbing, stonework, and a large population contradicts the idea that Hurrians were a roving mountain people in a strange land. Far from being yet another rough nomadic tribe, such as the Amorites or Kassites who were latecomers to the Mesopotamian party, the Hurrians and their unique language, music, deities, and rituals may have played a key role in shaping the first cities, empires, and states. The Kura Araxes culture is clearly associated to G2a3b1

[secherbernard]

Haplogroups G2a3a / G2a3b1 (may be more G2a3a) seem to be correlated to the Hurrians who expanded in Northern Syria, Caucasus, Zagros (where in addition with other tribes formed the Mittani and the Kassites) and when the original Hittites (the Nesites of Kanesh) were weakened due to internal political strife, the Hurrians took the opportunity and entered Minor Asia. That’s why we have Later Hittite royal names of Hurrian origin, like Urshi-Teshub, taking over. Only latter with the Kingdom of Kizzuwatna and the Luwians coming to power were the Hurrians pushed south and southwestern to the Aegean and the Mediterranean shores of Anatolia, where they created people of mixed origin like the Cilicians, the Lycians, the Pisidians, the Sidites etc. by merging with the Luwian original stock that was settled there. Anyway the Etruscans seem also have an Hurrian origin (the language is very similar) . G2a3a and G2a3b are 4000 -5000 (maximum) years old . G2a3a from the sea route are more Mediterraneans as the Greeks or the Etruscans ? as I said so this is NOT completely clear because this culture who gave birth to the nation of Etruscans who in later times was separated in northern and southern Etruscans. The southern were destroyed by Roman conquest, but the northern still survive (racially speaking) in Raetia, a canton of Switzerland, where they speak the Raetoromanic language, a mix of some Etruscan with Latin. For example they have the wor Zinake and the Etruscans had it too (it’s the equivalent of Tinake in Hurrian). They also have words with Etruscan suffixes even nowadays. BUT : the Raetian descendants in Switzerland seem to be G2a3b1 (FTDNA clusters) and NOT G2a3a1 so why the Greeks are G2a3a1 and apparently NOT the supposed G2a3b1 Etruscans ?

. G2a3b1 (North Caucasus Indo Iranians as the actual Ossetians who are speaking an Indo Iranian language - 60% of G men) came to Europe probably by the continent via Central Europe during the bronze age or they were may be associated to the Alans (Sarmatians) and confederate to some Germanic tribes during the invasions this is may be why some G2a3b1 are found within Germanic people of Netherlands ?

About the Hurrians : the discovery of a sophisticated city with monumental architecture, plumbing, stonework, and a large population contradicts the idea that Hurrians were a roving mountain people in a strange land. Far from being yet another rough nomadic tribe, such as the Amorites or Kassites who were latecomers to the Mesopotamian party, the Hurrians and their unique language, music, deities, and rituals may have played a key role in shaping the first cities, empires, and states. The Kura Araxes culture is clearly associated to G2a3b1

When you copy a text from an other web site you must have the honesty to tell it. See: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/12...anatolian.html badly modified with G2a3 haplogroup, and http://www.archaeology.org/0807/abstracts/urkesh.html

[willy]

When you copy a text from an other web site you must have the honesty to tell it. See: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/12...anatolian.html badly modified with G2a3 haplogroup, and http://www.archaeology.org/0807/abstracts/urkesh.html

Not from these pages you gave us so TY for it so it comes from here http://aratta.wordpress.com/category...orized/page/5/ "Osseterne og de indoeuropeiske språkene" they have may be made a copy paste from an other web sites ? so this is not a question of honesty just relaying these informations who seem really interesting . Anyway my question is why the Raetian descendants in Switzerland seem to be G2a3b1 ( according FTDNA clusters) and NOT G2a3a1 so why the Greeks are G2a3a1 so the Swiss (from the Rhaetian tribe ? ) are they really from an Etruscan origin ? This is a pity we have no more Y DNA data from Tuscany they are G men OK so are they G2a3a or G2a3b ? it will be interesting to know it because as I said the sea root is more correlated to G2a3a ... if someone could have the answer somewhere on the net you are welcome .

[MPA]

The aratta website focus on the region south of the Caucasus Mountains / the slope facing the Asian side.

Thw Aratta website ignored the adyghe tribes Y-DNA results (study of the shabsugh tribe in wikipedia ) the adyghe's historical homeland , the Northwest of the Caucasus Mountains/ the side facing the European side.
according to wikipedia: Adyghe (Circassian) tribes:
Abazekh ,Adamey (Adaley) .Besleney ,Bzhedugh ,Chemgwi, earlier Kemirgoy (Temirgoy, a Russified version) ,Hakuchi (sub-group of the Shapsugh) ,Hatuqway ,Jilax'steney (Eastern Kabardians),Kabarday ,Makhosh (Mex'wesh) ,Mamxegh ,Natukhay ,Shapsugh ,
Yegerkway

In wikipedia there is a mention about a study on the shapsugh and the shabsugh is one of the adyghe tribes that belong to the northwest of the Caucasus and the y-DNA G2a3b ratio is 81% accordingng to wikipedia ,


I would like to point that the Caucasus Mountains is a difficult terrains. there is a slope facing the European side and there is a slope facing the Asian side.
there is also highest mountain area in Europe Elbrus summit separting the two sides.

the near impossible to pass terrains from east to west and north to south created isolations and differrent languages ,and the y-dna proved that there is differrent y-dna types and ratio from east , west , north and south.

The adyghe tribes of the northwest of the caucasus mountains speak the same adyghe language .

the ossetian , the armenian and the georgian do not speak the same language of the people who historically lived in the northwest of the caucasus mountains.

the adyghe tribes historical homeland is in the northwest of the caucasus mountains
, the slope facing the european side, the ossetian , the georgian and the armenian historical homeland is on the caucasus mountains area facing the asian side.

In my family library , there is an old book written by a circassian in the mid twenty century ,the book compare the adyghe language with the hittite language and in the book there is mention about similarity of the name of several hittite kings to the adyghe language.
and it mentioned that there is an adyghe family that hold the a hittite name.

i do not have an access to the book now ,
the past and the future findings and discovery of the old graves in Maikop area and in the northwest area of the caucasus and the middle east may answer many questions.

My mother family( now live in diaspora after the ninteen century exodus from the caucasus mountains) is Adyghe from the bzedugh tribe , historical land is the krasnodar area near Maikop .
The ossetian , armenian , and georgian represent the south side of the Caucasus mountains.

my two questions:

is the Y-DNA of the Adyghe shabsugh G2a3b close to the Swiss y-dna G2a3b ?

is the the Y-DNA of the Ossetian , Armenian and Georgian G2a3a . close to the greek ?

[willy]

is the Y-DNA of the Adyghe shabsugh G2a3b close to the Swiss y-dna G2a3b ?

is the the Y-DNA of the Ossetian , Armenian and Georgian G2a3a . close to the greek ?

To answer the question "is the Y-DNA of the Adyghe shabsugh G2a3b close to the Swiss y-dna G2a3b ?"
I say YES !

About G2a3b1 U1 +
There is no more "Caucasus cluster" cause the Europeans and the Caucasus
people G2a3b1 U1+ are the same .

From Ray Banks : G FTDNA PROJECT

Newcomers: You need to understand "SNPs" to understand some items here. SNPs are permanent DNA mutations that are passed on to all males in the direct line of male descent. They are used to subgroup G persons. who share specific SNPs Abbreviated terms, such as L141, are used to designate SNP locations on the chromosome. To see G categories, link to the ISOGG listing of these at

General News
U1 Category (G2a3b1a1) significantly expanded -- In the latest results Mr. Deniz from the northwestern Caucasus who has marker values common there was found to be U1+. In addition, Mr. Nikitin whose marker values are found in the Republic of Georgia also found U1+. And Mr. Gusmanov from Russia also found to be U1+. These men were earlier listed in what I had designated at the G2a3b1a "Caucasus Subgroup." In addition to these three men there are other samples in the "Caucasus Subgroup" which seem related to them, and all these were thus moved to the U1 category. As a result, the "Caucasus Subgroup" is now abolished, and those remaining samples were transferred to the Miscellaneous G2a3b1a group.

http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/G_U1.html

[Maciamo]

I think that this G2a3b1 U1+ cluster around the Caucasus reinforce the presumption that G2a3b1 is of Indo-European origin.

[Melusine]

Hello,

For anyone interested as to how haplogroups are divided "downstream" from original parent such as G (R etc). (This method also applies to all haplgroups).

http://www.members.cox.net/banksfami...planation.html

If this URL does not work go to Yahoo: archives rootsweb y-dna forum haplogroup G 2010. Results under Y-DNA Haplogroup Archives, Explanation of DNA concepts pertinent to family and population genetics.

Without understanding what "downstream" in your personal pylogenetic tree means, it not possible to understand the deep ancestry of your own haplogroup such as R etc. The best course of action would appear to be to first study about the haplogroup parent/haplogroup (R, I G etc.) originated, then go downward to your own haplogroup subclade and then study it with what is available on the web.

Also, geneticists and population experts have had to go back and re evaluate timelines and places where ancestors lived/migratated, many genetic migration maps "out there", are now practiclly "obsolete", much has evolved since the very beginnings of genetic-testing by regular (consumer) males (mostly for genealogical purposes)

Melusine

[willy]

Hello,

For anyone interested as to how haplogroups are divided "downstream" from original parent such as G (R etc). (This method also applies to all haplgroups).

http://www.members.cox.net/banksfami...planation.html

If this URL does not work go to Yahoo: archives rootsweb y-dna forum haplogroup G 2010. Results under Y-DNA Haplogroup Archives, Explanation of DNA concepts pertinent to family and population genetics.

Without understanding what "downstream" in your personal pylogenetic tree means, it not possible to understand the deep ancestry of your own haplogroup such as R etc. The best course of action would appear to be to first study about the haplogroup parent/haplogroup (R, I G etc.) originated, then go downward to your own haplogroup subclade and then study it with what is available on the web.

Also, geneticists and population experts have had to go back and re evaluate timelines and places where ancestors lived/migratated, many genetic migration maps "out there", are now practiclly "obsolete", much has evolved since the very beginnings of genetic-testing by regular (consumer) males (mostly for genealogical purposes)

Melusine

Mesuline is your French noble father line G2a3b1 belongs to L140 + or L13 + or U1+ ? is the DYS 388 = 13 ?

Thank you
Willy

[Melusine]

Hi Willy,

G2a3b1a1a L13+ DYS 12

Melulsine

[DejaVu]

Hi!

Want to mention that my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) Haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.

[willy]

Hi!

Want to mention that my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) Haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.

On the G distribution map Macedonia is well represented with a quite high level of G the very surprising thing is to found in Macedonia the famous G2a3b1 DYS 388 =13 found in Northern West Europeans ! Are you listed in the FTDNA G project ? Anyway the ancient Macedonians who came to Greece were surely G men as may be Alexander the Great called also the Macedonian ...

[how yes no 2]

On the G distribution map Macedonia is well represented with a quite high level of G the very surprising thing is to found in Macedonia the famous G2a3b1 DYS 388 =13 found in Northern West Europeans ! Are you listed in the FTDNA G project ? Anyway the ancient Macedonians who came to Greece were surely G men as may be Alexander the Great called also the Macedonian ...

G haplogroup from Slavic settled area (Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia + areas in north Greece above G hotspot) might also be due to some remaining group of Alans that are likely to have arrived with Macedonian Slavs...

hotspot of G related to ancient Macedonians is bellow Slavic settlements...
based on the position of the hotspot my guess is that ancient Macedonians have lost their identity and were completely hellenized..the name Macedonia stayed as geographical term, and Slavs who settled in province of Macedonia (which actually fitted more to ancient Peonia) eventually accepted geographic term Macedonia as their own ethnonym...

and no, ancient Macedonians were not exclusively G2a... they also had some other haplogroup since hotspot of G2a doesnot go over 12% in areas 21 and 23 that are clearly related to ancient Macedonians
in paper: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf
(btw. Figure 1 also clearly separates ancient Macedonians from Greeks)

looking at the table I would say they had large R1a, E-V13 and I haplogroup(probably I2a2)...
so they might have been one part of R1a wave that arrived to Europe, while large G indicates that they did dwell a lot somewhere near Caucasus before doing so... and E-V13 is probably related to Thracian Illyrian and Dardanian influence..


R1a there probably dominantly does not origin from Slavs/Serbs since R1a is there in significantly higher percentages 25% and 20% than among neighbouring Slavic populations

and I being 20% and 12% might be influence of Serbs (also very high in Macedonian Slavs that are often considered to be south Serbs who were dominated by Bulgarians and developed language somewhat closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian), since in nearby Serrai area that was Serb stronghold in 14th century (last settlement was thus done by Serbs in 14th century, since later came Turkish empire and Turks didnot massively settle those areas) it is 36% which is alike to levels in Serbia...
in fact Serbs initially settled in a place Servia in area of ancient Macedonia... where hotspot of G2a is, but they didnot stay there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia,_Greece

so, haplogroup I might be signature of Serbs there, though it may have also been present in ancient Macedonians...

thus, ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a and G2a and E-V13 (and maybe I2a2)
and before moving to Balkans they probably did not carry E- V13


I would say that G2a, I2a2 and R1a pinpoint to their iranian origin..

I am personally inclined to see I2a2 there as native to ancient Macedonians, because of ancient legend of Queen of Sheba
Queen of Sheba was also known as Makeda in south part of her country (similarly as south of Serbia is Macedonia) and she was known as Balkis in arab countries...(as Balkan got its name during the rule of Ottoman empire that was under the influence of Arabs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba
for me this is clear ancient relation of names Serbs, Macedonians, and Balkan...
and ancient Macedonians might have been early offshot of iranian Serbs
iranian origin coupled with wide spread of Serb tribes in Iran (e.g. today Pashtun Serbans and Kurds are probably branches that origin from iranian Serbs as attested by similarity of names and by hotspots of haplogroup I in both Sarbans and Kurds) allowed Alexander Macedonian to do quick conquer not so much by battles as by trying to unite iranian people in single kingdom... how else could tiny ancient Macedonia spread so fast so far away?

[DejaVu]

Are you listed in the FTDNA G project ? Yes I am.
My Antic Tribe is Celtic or Viking. (iGENEA)

[willy]

Are you listed in the FTDNA G project ? Yes I am.
My Antic Tribe is Celtic or Viking. (iGENEA)

If you are G2a3b1 L140 + DYS 388 =13 your antic tribe is not Celtic or Germanic nor Viking but Indo Iranian
with 2 possibilities :

1) Indo European migration from Caucasus to the West 4000 years ago
2) recent migration 2000 years ago

The only thing we can to observe is G2a3b1 is found mostly among the Germans this is why iGENEA say "Germanic"
so Germanic people were effectively from different origin and haplogroups particularly on Central Europe and for instance on Austria to the North of Germany there are some E and etc ... iGenea look at the distribution on each countries so the most influential haplogroup is R1b1b2 .

[LeBrok]

how else could tiny ancient Macedonia spread so fast so far away?

Where should I start. Maybe the same way Attila the Hun destroyed Roman Empire and ruled half of Europe?
Or did you hear about small corporal from Corsica. :) Almost nobody that conquered half of Europe.
Hittites showed up from nowhere and destroyed the Great Kings with their Great Kingdoms.
And even though the Alexander could have been related to other Indo-Iranians, they wouldn't necessarily let him have it. It's all about the money, taxes, and pride too. Every country is rich in history of bloody domestic wars for power, domination, ideas, etc, and in most of them spoke the same language.