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Thread: Mein Gott! I'm...German?!?!

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    Mein Gott! I'm...German?!?!

    My DNA was tested by GeneBase and came back as L21+

    When I checked my GB Matches, the largest group was, unsurprisingly since I am Scottish, European/Celtic with 585 Matches. Some were very close; Genetic Distance of 1/Common ancestor within 24 generations.

    However, the second largest group was European/GERMANIC, with 381 matches, again soem of them very close gentically speaking.

    Am I right to conclude that my father is at least partly descended from one of the Germanic tribes? Or am I way off base?

    Fire at will...

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    What is your autosomal ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    My DNA was tested by GeneBase and came back as L21+

    When I checked my GB Matches, the largest group was, unsurprisingly since I am Scottish, European/Celtic with 585 Matches. Some were very close; Genetic Distance of 1/Common ancestor within 24 generations.

    However, the second largest group was European/GERMANIC, with 381 matches, again soem of them very close gentically speaking.

    Am I right to conclude that my father is at least partly descended from one of the Germanic tribes? Or am I way off base?

    Fire at will...
    Er . . . uh . . . "Celtic" and SW Germany are practically synonymous.

    Check out the R-L21 European Continent Map:

    http://tinyurl.com/qo2e4m

    Remember also what the 1st-century Roman historian Tacitus said of the Caledonians:

    "The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin."
    (Agricola, 11)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Er . . . uh . . . "Celtic" and SW Germany are practically synonymous.

    Check out the R-L21 European Continent Map:

    http://tinyurl.com/qo2e4m

    Remember also what the 1st-century Roman historian Tacitus said of the Caledonians:

    "The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin."
    (Agricola, 11)
    First time I've heard that. I'm not doubting you, I'm just surprised.

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    So this is a prove that Germanic tribes have arrived long before the
    Anglo-Saxons' s arrival! But I cannot believe that all the red haired
    men in UK, Scotland and Ireland are descendants of the Germanics.

    Erik

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    R1b1b2 ht 15 is on West Europe since minimum 7000 years ago (neolithic farmers) so germans or celtic is a very new concept "Saxon" "Celtic" or "italic" is in fact a mixed of I1 (paleolithic) + R1b1b2 (neolithic) + J2 (it depends of someclades) + E1(earlier on north Europe Germany ) .
    Nico

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    So this is a prove that Germanic tribes have arrived long before the
    Anglo-Saxons' s arrival! But I cannot believe that all the red haired
    men in UK, Scotland and Ireland are descendants of the Germanics.

    Erik
    Never trust Roman or other ancient accounts to discuss ethnology or genetics. The Romans had difficulties distinguishing between the Germans and the Celts. Sometimes it was a linguistic or cultural distinction, sometimes a physical one.

    Red hair was very probably diffused to Europe through R1b1b2 people, who also brought Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages with them. Red hair is as common in isolated regions with a Celtic background (Ireland, Scotland) than those with a Germanic one (Scandinavia) or a mixed one (southern Germany, Belgium).

    There were no Germanic tribe in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, but Celtic ones. Celts and Germans are closely related because they descend from a common Bronze-Age ancestral tribe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    R1b1b2 ht 15 is on West Europe since minimum 7000 years ago (neolithic farmers) so germans or celtic is a very new concept "Saxon" "Celtic" or "italic" is in fact a mixed of I1 (paleolithic) + R1b1b2 (neolithic) + J2 (it depends of someclades) + E1(earlier on north Europe Germany ) .
    It is possible that R1b1b2 was in West Europe about 7000 years ago, but I wouldn't use the term "minimum". It may be closer to the maximum.

    Dr. Hammer at FTDNA presented that R1b1b2 in Europe appears to have TMRCA of 4000-8000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Never trust Roman or other ancient accounts to discuss ethnology or genetics. The Romans had difficulties distinguishing between the Germans and the Celts. Sometimes it was a linguistic or cultural distinction, sometimes a physical one.

    Red hair was very probably diffused to Europe through R1b1b2 people, who also brought Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages with them. Red hair is as common in isolated regions with a Celtic background (Ireland, Scotland) than those with a Germanic one (Scandinavia) or a mixed one (southern Germany, Belgium).

    There were no Germanic tribe in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons, but Celtic ones. Celts and Germans are closely related because they descend from a common Bronze-Age ancestral tribe.
    In the 1st century Tacitus would have had knowledge of the "Germans" living closest to the Rhine, that is, to the more Celtic of the tribes inhabiting Germania. Chances are back then they did resemble the Caledonians much more than modern Germans resemble modern Scots now.

    I would not dismiss Tacitus' observations out of hand. He was a careful observer and historian.

    It is also a fact that red hair reaches its current world maximums in the British Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    In the 1st century Tacitus would have had knowledge of the "Germans" living closest to the Rhine, that is, to the more Celtic of the tribes inhabiting Germania. Chances are back then they did resemble the Caledonians much more than modern Germans resemble modern Scots now.

    I would not dismiss Tacitus' observations out of hand. He was a careful observer and historian.

    It is also a fact that red hair reaches its current world maximums in the British Isles.
    Even in Scotland red haired people are just a small minority. John Gray's survey of hair and eye pigmentation in Scotland during the early 1900s only found about 5% of Scots to be red haired ("Memoir on the pigmentation survey of Scotland", in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, V. 37, 1907. Page 382), the large majority having different hues of brown hair. These ancient Roman "descriptions" are not always entirely reliable. Often those writers used to fix their attention on some trait which they considered unusual or "exotic" and tried to make it the norm among the foreign peoples they were talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    Even in Scotland red haired people are just a small minority. John Gray's survey of hair and eye pigmentation in Scotland during the early 1900s only found about 5% of Scots to be red haired ("Memoir on the pigmentation survey of Scotland", in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, V. 37, 1907. Page 382), the large majority having different hues of brown hair. These ancient Roman "descriptions" are not always entirely reliable. Often those writers used to fix their attention on some trait which they considered unusual or "exotic" and tried to make it the norm among the foreign peoples they were talking about.
    My understanding is that true red hair (excluding non-auburn or chestnut shades) averages out to approximately 3% in Europe. Scots may have the most legitimate red-haired people in the world (6-7% possibly) with Ireland second.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 29-04-10 at 14:47.

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    We don't know if red-hair is a Celtic trait, since it is not even sure if the British isles had more Celtic populations than continental Europe. In Brittany, France, Northern Italy, central Europe or western Iberia redhair is average (2-3 %) so most probably red-hair is a Germanic trait

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    We don't know if red-hair is a Celtic trait, since it is not even sure if the British isles had more Celtic populations than continental Europe. In Brittany, France, Northern Italy, central Europe or western Iberia redhair is average (2-3 %) so most probably red-hair is a Germanic trait
    It may actually be Nordic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    It is possible that R1b1b2 was in West Europe about 7000 years ago, but I wouldn't use the term "minimum". It may be closer to the maximum.

    Dr. Hammer at FTDNA presented that R1b1b2 in Europe appears to have TMRCA of 4000-8000 years ago.
    Yes ! we can say 8000 years maximum sorry you are ok !

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    Saying things like, "These ancient Roman 'descriptions' are not always entirely reliable", is what is known as a bald assertion. The point is whether or not one can show that Tacitus' observations were unreliable and specifically that his observations regarding the Caledonians of the 1st century were unreliable.

    Where is the actual evidence that Tacitus was so unreliable that we should entirely disregard his remarks concerning the physical appearance of the ancient Caledonians?

    I doubt there is any such evidence.

    In its absence, perhaps we should just take his statement at face value.

    No doubt many of the Caledonians of the 1st century did in fact have "red hair" and "large limbs".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    We don't know if red-hair is a Celtic trait, since it is not even sure if the British isles had more Celtic populations than continental Europe. In Brittany, France, Northern Italy, central Europe or western Iberia redhair is average (2-3 %) so most probably red-hair is a Germanic trait
    Red hair is not that common in Germanic regions. It is much more common in those places where Celtic language and culture survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Red hair is not that common in Germanic regions. It is much more common in those places where Celtic language and culture survive.
    red-hair is not that common in Brittany, which has a Celtic language and culture

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    Red hair is NOT COMMON ANYWHERE - and don't go by what you find on Wikipedia since the way things are presented there "red hair" could mean anything from strawberry blond to chestnut. The great majority of people who have TRUE red hair are European or unmixed descendants of Eurasian Berbers. Europe as a whole averages about 3-4% legitimate red hair, with Scotland ranking highest, I believe at 6-7% (a significant minority of Scots also carry the recessive "red hair gene"). So, no, the overwhelming majority of people ANYWHERE in Europe do not have TRUE red hair. Now, if you want to include auburn and chestnut shades then the percentage goes up noticeably, even in some countries with no "Celtic" influences.

    BTW, no accurate anthropological field studies have been accomplished as regards red hair frequencies. People keep going by the same horribly flawed information passed down through the ages, for the most part.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 29-04-10 at 20:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Saying things like, "These ancient Roman 'descriptions' are not always entirely reliable", is what is known as a bald assertion. The point is whether or not one can show that Tacitus' observations were unreliable and specifically that his observations regarding the Caledonians of the 1st century were unreliable.

    Where is the actual evidence that Tacitus was so unreliable that we should entirely disregard his remarks concerning the physical appearance of the ancient Caledonians?

    I doubt there is any such evidence.

    In its absence, perhaps we should just take his statement at face value.

    No doubt many of the Caledonians of the 1st century did in fact have "red hair" and "large limbs".
    No, it's what's known as a hardly uncommon occurrence; it is not rare for ancient historians to be quite mistaken. Many times they spoke of places they had never been to in their lives, writing about them from hearsay. And when the more modern anthropological evidence does not seem to correlate with their statements, the more reason we have of doubting them. What happened to these so overwhelmingly red-haired "Caledonians" then? Red hair is hardly the norm among their modern counterparts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    No, it's what's known as a hardly uncommon occurrence; it is not rare for ancient historians to be quite mistaken. Many times they spoke of places they had never been to in their lives, writing about them from hearsay. And when the more modern anthropological evidence does not seem to correlate with their statements, the more reason we have of doubting them. What happened to these so overwhelmingly red-haired "Caledonians" then? Red hair is hardly the norm among their modern counterparts.
    My wife is Scottish and knows the country and its people very well and she will be the first to tell you that, although you find a higher percentage of people in Scotland with true red hair compared to other parts of Europe, it still amounts to a very small minority. I've been to Scotland many times and fully agree with her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    No, it's what's known as a hardly uncommon occurrence; it is not rare for ancient historians to be quite mistaken. Many times they spoke of places they had never been to in their lives, writing about them from hearsay. And when the more modern anthropological evidence does not seem to correlate with their statements, the more reason we have of doubting them. What happened to these so overwhelmingly red-haired "Caledonians" then? Red hair is hardly the norm among their modern counterparts.
    A lot of time has passed since the 1st century.

    You still have not produced any real solid reason not to take Tacitus' observations at face value or any evidence that he was "quite mistaken".

    Note that he did not say anything about the Caledonians being "overwhelmingly red-haired"; he merely noted the apparent prevalence of red hair and large limbs among them, and it could be that red hair was more common among them then than it is now (although red hair is still fairly common among the Scots).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    A lot of time has passed since the 1st century.

    You still have not produced any real solid reason not to take Tacitus' observations at face value or any evidence that he was "quite mistaken".

    Note that he did not say anything about the Caledonians being "overwhelmingly red-haired"; he merely noted the apparent prevalence of red hair and large limbs among them, and it could be that red hair was more common among them then than it is now (although red hair is still fairly common among the Scots).

    When you try to use hair color to supposedly identify a people's origin, it does indeed imply that this is one of their chief characteristics. That's what Tacitus did by trying to claim that Caledonians had a "German" origin because of that characteristic. Again, this prompts the pertinent question: what happened to all these so characteristically red-haired people that helped identify them as "Germans"? As far as I know, Scotland has not gone through any major ethno-demographic change since those times (and the influx of other "Germans" should not have altered such a trait, since he also implies that "Germans" are characterized by the same hair color.)

    As mentioned before, Gray's large scale survey of hair and eye pigmentation in Scotland in the early 1900s only found about 5% of them to be red-haired. This is hardly the predominant hair color among Scots. Certainly not something you would try to use to attempt to guess their origins.

    Either the "Caledonians" were just a tribe with lots of people with red hair (and not the whole of the inhabitants of Scotland), or he's just exaggerating things.

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    Well, I'm willing to argue, if you are.

    You are apparently unwilling to just take Tacitus' comments at face value, i.e., that during the 1st century the Caledonians had a lot of big guys with red hair among them.

    I am willing to accept the comments for what they are: the observations of a well-respected 1st-century Roman historian, largely based on information from his father-in-law Agricola, who would have seen Caledonian warriors and captives first hand.

    Do I think Tacitus was saying that every last Caledonian man, woman and child had large limbs and red hair? No. But those traits must have been prevalent enough to have been marked among that people.

    Many of Tacitus' other observations have been born out by archaeological evidence.

    Why assume that he did not know what he was talking about when he commented on the large limbs and red hair of the 1st century Caledonians?

    What about his comments on the dark, curly hair and generally Iberian look of the Silures of southern Wales?

    Are those bogus, too?

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    I highly doubt that the Caledonians were any more red-haired than the Scots of today.

    Ancient history is filled with exaggerations and gross misconceptions on everything from foreign phenotypes to geography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, I'm willing to argue, if you are.

    You are apparently unwilling to just take Tacitus' comments at face value, i.e., that during the 1st century the Caledonians had a lot of big guys with red hair among them.

    I am willing to accept the comments for what they are: the observations of a well-respected 1st-century Roman historian, largely based on information from his father-in-law Agricola, who would have seen Caledonian warriors and captives first hand.

    Do I think Tacitus was saying that every last Caledonian man, woman and child had large limbs and red hair? No. But those traits must have been prevalent enough to have been marked among that people.

    Many of Tacitus' other observations have been born out by archaeological evidence.

    Why assume that he did not know what he was talking about when he commented on the large limbs and red hair of the 1st century Caledonians?

    What about his comments on the dark, curly hair and generally Iberian look of the Silures of southern Wales?

    Are those bogus, too?
    Actually, the Silures may have been indigenous to Wales. It seems there is little clarity as regards their origins.

    I wonder, do we know with any certainty if Tacitus ever traveled to Iberia and / or Wales and / or Scotland?

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