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Thread: Should Greece Leave the Euro?

  1. #26
    Regular Member Marianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    50 to 100 euro per consultation ? I suppose that only for famous specialists.
    Not really. The really specialist ones are getting payed around 100 but the average doctor gets 40-60 euros per visit. Then it depends on the area you live at, if you live at a high class area you pay more even if the doctor is not a specialist. For example in a low class area in Athens you might pay 40-50 euros for a dermatologist whereas where I live I pay 80 euros.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It strange that it should be more in Greece, where the salaries are lower.
    The cost of living in Greece is outrageous while salaries are lower than many countries in EU. Journalists often compare prices in Greek markets with prices in French, Italian, German and Spanish ones and we are always the most expensive, sometimes twice more expensive than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How are patients reimbursed by their health insurance if doctors don't give receipts ? I don't know anybody here who would pay without a receipt.
    If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.

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    The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way. Ultimately, this can all be reduced to social and cultural issues and, more importantly, a habitus comprised of inclinations, preferences and sentiments formed through behaviors of avoidance and paths of least resistance.

    Greece is certainly not the only country in Europe where serious destructive practices are taking place day in and day out. "We have seen the enemy and it us."

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way...
    This is why I said before that reducing salaries of middle/lower class won't solve the problem. It's just a temporary "patch" to get money fast so we don't go bankrupt. The root of the problem is lying on tax evasion, corrupted politicians, under-the-table deals etc and the current government is doing almost nothing to fix this.

    You can't reduce people's salaries indefinitely to cover up the problem. You need to solve the problem itself.

    Scandals like the "Siemens Scandal" in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Si...ndal_in_Greece) have cost millions of euros to the Greek tax payers, but as you can read in the link no one was charged and of course no one has gone to jail. The same applies for other similar cases and who knows how many other scandals haven't been revealed yet... It might seem weird to someone from the outside why Greek people are protesting about the situation but how long can someone stand paying for the mistakes of others?

    Would you accept making sacrifices for nothing while a few steal billions of euros off you, off your country? People in the streets demand justice for the previous scandals, reassurance that such things won't happen again and proof that their sacrifices won't vanish into thin air.

    No matter what the communist party is saying, if people were sure that things will become better no one would complain about the new measurements.

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    The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.

    The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.

    It's game over.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyllgi View Post
    The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.
    The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.
    It's game over.
    I don't agree with this.

    I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

    Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

    What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...

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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    I don't agree with this.

    I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

    Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

    What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...
    You miss the point. The Greek people as a whole are livinmg beyond the means the country has to make the wealth available to them.

    People are being paid too much, they are getting social services they can't afford to fund, the whole nine yards is out of sync between imports and exports.

    It's payback time and it's not going to be pretty. Mind you, the UK is going to have to face the same and for the same reasons, it's just serendipity that the basis of our gross overspend isn't yet causing a collapse because money traders continue to lend money with confidence that the uK will borrow yet more to pay the interest on its existing debts.

    We live in interesting times.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.
    How comes nobody denounces these doctors or sue them ?
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyllgi View Post
    The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.
    Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.

  10. #35
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    Endemic corruption can be considered as a viral socio-cultural disease. Over time, it turns the organism zombie like or brings an end to its existence.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Marianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.
    It was estimated that corruption costs Greece 8% of it's GDP annually (more than 20 billions)!!! Italy has the same problem and Spain and Portugal less...

    To give you an idea, in a country of 11 million people in 2009, only 6 people declared income more than 1 million euros and less than 5000 declared an income of more than 100.000 euros.

    Greece's revenue from taxes is around 4.7% of GDP (8% is the average in EU), and shadow economy is estimated to be around 25% of GDP while Spain's and Portugal's is around 20%.

    The problem is that these figures of corruption and bribery derive from around 1,4% of the population, so you can understand why most Greeks feel that the plan to get the country out of the crisis is wrong and unfair, as it targets law-abiding citizens...
    Last edited by Marianne; 04-05-10 at 21:54.

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    I enjoyed this article about Greece this morning so thought to post.

    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/...t-tax-evasion/

    Greece’s Problem Is High Tax Rates, Not Tax Evasion

    Posted by Daniel J. Mitchell

    The New York Times has an article describing widespread tax evasion in Greece, along with an implication that the country’s fiscal crisis is largely the result of unpaid taxes and could be mostly solved if taxpayers were more obedient to the state. This is grossly inaccurate. A quick look at the budget numbers reveals that tax revenues have remained relatively constant in recent years, consuming nearly 40 percent of GDP. The burden of government spending, by contrast, has jumped significantly and now exceeds 50 percent of Greek economic output.

    The article also is flawed in assuming that harsher enforcement is the key to compliance. As this video shows, even the economists at the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development admit that tax evasion is driven by high tax rates (which is remarkable since the OECD is the international bureaucracy pushing for global tax rules to undermine tax competition and reduce fiscal sovereignty).

    Ironically, the New York Times article quotes Friedrich Schneider of Johannes Kepler University in Austria, but only to provide an estimate of Greece’s shadow economy. The reporter should have looked at an article that Schneider wrote for the International Monetary Fund, which found that:

    Macroeconomic and microeconomic modeling studies based on data for several countries suggest that the major driving forces behind the size and growth of the shadow economy are an increasing burden of tax and social security payments… The bigger the difference between the total cost of labor in the official economy and the after-tax earnings from work, the greater the incentive for employers and employees to avoid this difference and participate in the shadow economy. …Several studies have found strong evidence that the tax regime influences the shadow economy. …In Austria, the burden of direct taxes (including social security payments) has been the biggest influence on the growth of the shadow economy… Other studies show similar results for the Scandinavian countries, Germany, and the United States. In the United States, analysis shows that as the marginal federal personal income tax rate increases by one percentage point, other things being equal, the shadow economy grows by 1.4 percentage points. …A study of Quebec City in Canada shows that people are highly mobile between the official and the shadow economy, and that as net wages in the official economy go up, they work less in the shadow economy. This study also emphasizes that where people perceive the tax rate as too high, an increase in the (marginal) tax rate will lead to a decrease in tax revenue.

    It is worth noting the Schneider’s research also shows why Obama’s tax policy is very misguided. The President wants to boost the top tax rate by nearly five percentage points, and that’s on top of the big increase in the tax rate on saving and investment included in Obamacare. Based on Schneider’s research, we can expect America’s underground economy to expand.

    Shifting back to Greece, Schneider does not claim that tax rates are the only factor determining compliance. But his research indicates that more onerous enforcement regimes are unlikely to put much of a dent in tax evasion unless accompanied by better tax policy (i.e., lower tax rates). Moreover, compliance also is undermined by the rampant corruption and incompetence of the Greek government, but that problem won’t be solved unless politicians reduce the size and scope of the public sector. Needless to say, that’s not very likely. So when I read some of the details in this excerpt from the New York Times, much of my sympathy is for taxpayers rather than the greedy politicians that turned Greece into a fiscal mess:

    In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools. So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools. That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here. …Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before. …To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker. …Various studies have concluded that Greece’s shadow economy represented 20 to 30 percent of its gross domestic product. Friedrich Schneider, the chairman of the economics department at Johannes Kepler University of Linz, studies Europe’s shadow economies; he said that Greece’s was at 25 percent last year and estimated that it would rise to 25.2 percent in 2010.

    Daniel J. Mitchell • May 3, 2010 @ 8:41 am
    Filed under: International Economics and Development; Tax and Budget Policy
    Tags: big government, debt, deficit, fiscal crisis, government spending, Greece, imf, oecd, tax avoidance, tax evasion, tax rates

  13. #38
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    I think the EU should simply collapse. I'm tired of the loss of soverignty that comes with a having a European parliament. I'm tired of one nation having to bail out another nation. The EU is the modern-day USSR.

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    The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.
    The collapse of the EU may lead to an economic for the Eurozone, but it wouldn't lead to the social collapse of the EU. At this point of time, the European Parliament has too much over the parliaments of its member nations. The Schengen Area makes it easy for drug traffickers to distribute their goods throughout Europe. The EU has gone too far.

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    Every currency has weeker and better periods, Euro too. Nonetheless EU should be more thoughtful and secure herself from such lawlessness as it took place in Greece. I am also a follower of an idea of obliging UK, Denmark and Sweden to introduce Euro as well.

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    No, but it might be kicked out from the Eurozone.

    Not all members of the EU are part of the Eurozone. The UK is a major player in the EU, but does not use the Euro as its currency. Greece may be forced to leave the Eurozone if things get worse.

  18. #43
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    The best option for Greece might be to go bankrupt. Wipe out the debt, rebuild and reform economy without crippling interest payments. Surely they would be kicked out of Euro, but it wouldn't be a big price to pay in their situation. In 10-20 years if everything works fine they wouldn't have problem joining Euro again, if they wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atzerrian View Post
    ...... At this point of time, the European Parliament has too much over the parliaments of its member nations. ........... makes it easy for drug traffickers to distribute their goods throughout ....... The EU has gone too far.
    I don't know if your right here about the EU, but what you write exactly describes the relationship of our own over government in Washington aka "USA", with the member states of our own union. Substitute "USA" for "EU" and you describe the situation here in the USA precisely. In fact, one could even draw an analogy between Greece and California. So should we kick California out of the union. I think not!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Maybe there should be consequences for cooking accounting books and keeping country in financial mess. That's a serious breach of trust and confidence for the whole EU. Kicking out a member for mentioned sins should be an option.
    The worse part is that most of Greeks don't understand seriousness of their county's financial situation and protest against any sacrifices. At least this is what I'm getting from watching BBC news about Greece.
    I like the country, I like the people, but I'm for some discipline, and I hate any kind of mess.

    the mess is what the western media portray about what is happening in Greece..if they told you exactly what is going on in the country, you would protest too, because it could be you next on the same agenda....

    recently Mr Juncker said that european powers knew the misuse by Greece of european funds, but they let the country go bust..according to them greek economy will be transformed after it recovers from the crisis...he also implied that the germans and the french encouraged the procedure...so all is not what it seems...

    the bottom line is, people are suffering, while the bankers and the corrupt elite always get away with it, and not just in greece, but all over europe...most of you have accepted the situation...we did fight it, although with no results...nothing can be done...why should the people bail out the mistakes of the bankers and the rich?

    we will not be kicked out of the euro, europeans do not want that...in fact Estonia is going to join the eurozone in 2011..that is the answer to all the speculations for the collapse of the euro.....

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    Doesn't matte who you want to blame now, or who's fault it really was. The only question is what you're going to do now, and what your options are.
    What these public protests are going to achieve now? There is no more money, and on top of it huge interest payments for past excesses.
    What do you think Greek government should do to keep populous quiet? Or should they care? What would you do to fix the problem?
    Print more money?
    Increase taxes for rich?
    Make a miracle?

    I would guess that now it's time to stand united for Greeks and pull it out from the hole. Some nationalistic sentiment, I'm feeling here, should help the process. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Doesn't matte who you want to blame now, or who's fault it really was. The only question is what you're going to do now, and what your options are.
    What these public protests are going to achieve now? There is no more money, and on top of it huge interest payments for past excesses.
    What do you think Greek government should do to keep populous quiet? Or should they care? What would you do to fix the problem?
    Print more money?
    Increase taxes for rich?
    Make a miracle?

    I would guess that now it's time to stand united for Greeks and pull it out from the hole. Some nationalistic sentiment, I'm feeling here, should help the process. ;)
    united europeans.....aye...!! a nice dream but in reality...??
    tax the rich deffinately....the people can not carry all the weight of the payments of the loans...
    the populous can't stay quiet..they are right to be angry...in iceland their prime minister is facing the court for all the mismanagements..why not in greece too? (and ireland,and spain,and italy,and protugal and and and...)...

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    There is obviously something very wrong with our political systems. We should have smarter people at the helm of the countries to understand how economy works and not to do stupid moves that puts all the nations in dismal situation.
    Unfortunately taxing rich is not much of the option to get out off the big debt. There are not enough rich around, or corporations to pay for the huge debts. If you tax them too much they simply leave, leaving the country in bigger recession.
    At the end populous has to face the harsh reality and pay for the debt. Even though if I don't like this option, that's reality.
    That's why I would be voting, if I'm Greek, for bankruptcy, reforms and fresh start. The reforms need to be smart enough to encourage business to invest, make good jobs, and make sure there is no overspending in the future.
    Is this feasible? Possibly under some kind of dictatorship if ordinary folks won't cooperate?
    What am I talking about? lol

    The question that I'm asking myself more often, looking for solution too, is why don't we have smartest and most honest people of us all running our countries?
    Obviously we don't have right democratic system to select them and reward them for good work. We have to reinvent democracy so we can find people like that to lead us.......to the bright future. :) How difficult is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is obviously something very wrong with our political systems. We should have smarter people at the helm of the countries to understand how economy works and not to do stupid moves that puts all the nations in dismal situation.
    Unfortunately taxing rich is not much of the option to get out off the big debt. There are not enough rich around, or corporations to pay for the huge debts. If you tax them too much they simply leave, leaving the country in bigger recession.
    At the end populous has to face the harsh reality and pay for the debt. Even though if I don't like this option, that's reality.
    That's why I would be voting, if I'm Greek, for bankruptcy, reforms and fresh start. The reforms need to be smart enough to encourage business to invest, make good jobs, and make sure there is no overspending in the future.
    Is this feasible? Possibly under some kind of dictatorship if ordinary folks won't cooperate?
    What am I talking about? lol

    The question that I'm asking myself more often, looking for solution too, is why don't we have smartest and most honest people of us all running our countries?
    Obviously we don't have right democratic system to select them and reward them for good work. We have to reinvent democracy so we can find people like that to lead us.......to the bright future. :) How difficult is that?

    i agree with you in most things, but why is it the poorest and the ordinary people who must suffer..?? in a post above someone mentioned that the Greeks lived beyond their means...what..?? Greece was one of the most expensive countries in the eurozone, but the salaries of the people were not near as those of ireland, norway, sweden, luxembourg the UK or germany....now they are bringing all the prices even higher, but the wages of the people even lower...how are the people going to survive..??

    there is no democracy in the world...some people and nations are forced to be poor, in order others to be very rich....there is no equality, nor fairness....we think we are governed by a democratic system, but in fact we have an oligarchy, established after the WW2...The new world order as they call it...we need to unite first in europe and then the world to get rid off this elite that governs us, unfairly .........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atzerrian View Post
    I think the EU should simply collapse. I'm tired of the loss of soverignty that comes with a having a European parliament. I'm tired of one nation having to bail out another nation. The EU is the modern-day USSR.
    Atzerrian
    There will be no collapse of Europe, on the contrary I think that in years to come, Europe will become stronger.

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