Economy Should Greece Leave the Euro?

Because among the higher earners are the ones who vote for these laws...

I feel your pain and despair Marianne, but I can't agree with your solutions.
First of all, there is not enough rich Greeks and if you even taxed them 100% you wouldn't make a dent in Greece deficit and debt.
Secondly, they already pay biggest taxes like in every country. If you tax them much more they will leave the country with a big lose to Greece. Keep in mind that generally speaking they are the smartest, most educated, best business people, great investors, etc. If you scare these people away Greece will be in even bigger sh*t. I'm pretty sure most of them have a second house already somewhere in Europe and they speak languages. I guess all they need is a little push.

Here is a solution. Reform your economy and open country for business. Make the big capital come to town, invest, double and triple GDP. If you increase GDP 3 fold in next 10 years, your debt level becomes half of GDP, manageable and easy to pay. Also you'll have more money for education, better universities, attract students from abroad (reverse the current trend) and increase intelligentsia and business elite in Greece, this will spur farther GDP growth, and this....etc

Even though, it was shown again and again, how economic growth can do miracles in any country, it's not being duplicated too often. Almost every government has to try it's own model, because they all special and so different, and smartest.
Now we'll have Papandreou model. And the communists protesting in the streets are even farther away from the realism. I'm pretty sure, most of it is an education problem, they don't freakin know how economy works, with heads floating in Utopian and selfish world, me, me, me! I had same problem with my kids after high school. Took me few year and they grown up somewhat to understand better how things are. Schooling system in Canada and probably all around the world is filled by socialistically oriented teachers, and off course it's all fortify by the strongest Unions.
 
I totally agree with your post LeBrok.

The difference is that I wasn't talking about the rich who pay their taxes normally (those are the minority).

The problem in Greece is that the majority of the rich aren't paying the taxes they should. For example, doctors who have their own office: when people go to the doctor, they pay 50-100euros per visit (depending on the doctor, the area etc), but the doctor doesn't give them receipts. That means he doesn't pay taxes. Recently it was revealed that there are tons of doctors in Greece who get more than 100.000 euros per year and they are paying 0 taxes because their income is less than 10.000, some of them were even getting money from the state because their income is so low!!!(because they don't give receipts).

The same applies for lawyers, accountants etc. These people make fortunes every year and the average people, middle and lower class who are paying all their taxes the way they should, are now called to sacrifice their small income to get the country out of the crisis...
 
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The bottom line is that a nation is like a family.

A family can only live to a standard consistent with the earning capacity of that family. It may be that the family live in a village in which some families that earn a great deal contribute to assist other families who can’t get by.

But there comes a point when if that family who are poor try to live beyond what they can afford based on their earning capacity plus the charity from others and try to “con” the rest then things have to be brought back into line.

In the case of Greece the family have not only been living way beyond that level that they can afford, but in addition the head of the family (the government) has taken out “credit cards” without telling anyone just to make himself popular with the rest of his tribe and live a better life than is justified by their earning plus charity capacity.

Now the bills are coming in and the whole family must cut back and they don’t like it, and are in effect demanding that their charitable gifts be increased to cover their (fraudulent) profligacy.

Well basically tough. The family must now put up and shut up because they’ve brought shame on the whole village.

Funny how it is that when you reduce the macro closer to the micro so many complex things have simple solutions. In this case,:” Hey, Greece, it’s payback time. Live with it”.

And think yourselves dammned lucky we don’t evict you from the village.
 
How can Greece not make the higher earners share the pain? Why would the E.U. allow a deficit reduction structure where the lower and middle classes bear the greatest part of the burden?

Higher earners are more mobile. In any country when trouble arise those with good qualifications and speaking several languages can always seek employment elsewhere. When one only speaks the local language and has nothing special to offer to foreign companies, they have little choice by stay at home.
 
The problem in Greece is that the majority of the rich aren't paying the taxes they should. For example, doctors who have their own office: when people go to the doctor, they pay 50-100euros per visit (depending on the doctor, the area etc),

50 to 100 euro per consultation ? I suppose that's only for famous specialists. Here in Belgium a visit to a GP is 22 euro. For a specialist doctor, it ranges from 40 to 70 euro. It strange that it should be more in Greece, where the salaries are lower.

but the doctor doesn't give them receipts. That means he doesn't pay taxes. Recently it was revealed that there are tons of doctors in Greece who get more than 100.000 euros per year and they are paying 0 taxes because their income is less than 10.000, some of them were even getting money from the state because their income is so low!!!(because they don't give receipts).

How are patients reimbursed by their health insurance if doctors don't give receipts ? I don't know anybody here who would pay without a receipt.
 
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50 to 100 euro per consultation ? I suppose that only for famous specialists.

Not really. The really specialist ones are getting payed around 100 but the average doctor gets 40-60 euros per visit. Then it depends on the area you live at, if you live at a high class area you pay more even if the doctor is not a specialist. For example in a low class area in Athens you might pay 40-50 euros for a dermatologist whereas where I live I pay 80 euros.

It strange that it should be more in Greece, where the salaries are lower.

The cost of living in Greece is outrageous while salaries are lower than many countries in EU. Journalists often compare prices in Greek markets with prices in French, Italian, German and Spanish ones and we are always the most expensive, sometimes twice more expensive than the others.

How are patients reimbursed by their health insurance if doctors don't give receipts ? I don't know anybody here who would pay without a receipt.

If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.
 
The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way. Ultimately, this can all be reduced to social and cultural issues and, more importantly, a habitus comprised of inclinations, preferences and sentiments formed through behaviors of avoidance and paths of least resistance.

Greece is certainly not the only country in Europe where serious destructive practices are taking place day in and day out. "We have seen the enemy and it us."
 
The Greece mess did not just spring up overnight. Something is obviously terribly out of balance with the Greek socio-economic equation, and this has been the case for some time. Things such as endemic corruption, tax evasion and poor fiscal management are significant problems that have hurt Greece in a major way...

This is why I said before that reducing salaries of middle/lower class won't solve the problem. It's just a temporary "patch" to get money fast so we don't go bankrupt. The root of the problem is lying on tax evasion, corrupted politicians, under-the-table deals etc and the current government is doing almost nothing to fix this.

You can't reduce people's salaries indefinitely to cover up the problem. You need to solve the problem itself.

Scandals like the "Siemens Scandal" in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Siemens_alleged_scandal_in_Greece) have cost millions of euros to the Greek tax payers, but as you can read in the link no one was charged and of course no one has gone to jail. The same applies for other similar cases and who knows how many other scandals haven't been revealed yet... It might seem weird to someone from the outside why Greek people are protesting about the situation but how long can someone stand paying for the mistakes of others?

Would you accept making sacrifices for nothing while a few steal billions of euros off you, off your country? People in the streets demand justice for the previous scandals, reassurance that such things won't happen again and proof that their sacrifices won't vanish into thin air.

No matter what the communist party is saying, if people were sure that things will become better no one would complain about the new measurements.
 
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.

The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.

It's game over.
 
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.
The solution is to reduce the living standard to the level that the Greek people can sustain by their efforts and not rely on taking in loans the repayment of which is beyond them.
It's game over.
I don't agree with this.

I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...
 
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Effect of Greece crisis on Portugal
 
I don't agree with this.

I read English newspapers everyday, as well as French, German and Dutch ones and I see many unrealistic data posted there, that most of the time are over exaggerated.

Yes it is true that many Greeks use their credit cards a lot but people aren't living la vida loca with money they don't have as they are saying in your news.

What you are saying applies 100% for the state. The Greek government is the one that was spending money it didn't have. Greek politicians used to promise to their voters jobs in public departments and this lead to 1.5million Greeks working for the state, more than what countries with triple the population Greece has. They were spending extreme amounts of money for constructions just to justify their under-the-table deals with private companies, and the list goes on and on...

You miss the point. The Greek people as a whole are livinmg beyond the means the country has to make the wealth available to them.

People are being paid too much, they are getting social services they can't afford to fund, the whole nine yards is out of sync between imports and exports.

It's payback time and it's not going to be pretty. Mind you, the UK is going to have to face the same and for the same reasons, it's just serendipity that the basis of our gross overspend isn't yet causing a collapse because money traders continue to lend money with confidence that the uK will borrow yet more to pay the interest on its existing debts.

We live in interesting times.
 
If you ask for a receipt you pay more. For example my eye doctor charges 50 euros without receipt and 70 with receipt. If you go to a private doctor the reimbursement you get from the health insurance isn't much. If you want to be treated completely for free you must go to the public hospitals but there you must wait around a month for an appointment.

How comes nobody denounces these doctors or sue them ?
 
The root of the problem is that Greek people are living way beyond their earning capacity.

Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.
 
Endemic corruption can be considered as a viral socio-cultural disease. Over time, it turns the organism zombie like or brings an end to its existence.
 
Based on Marianne's explanations, the root of the problem is corruption, at every level of society.
It was estimated that corruption costs Greece 8% of it's GDP annually (more than 20 billions)!!! Italy has the same problem and Spain and Portugal less...

To give you an idea, in a country of 11 million people in 2009, only 6 people declared income more than 1 million euros and less than 5000 declared an income of more than 100.000 euros.

Greece's revenue from taxes is around 4.7% of GDP (8% is the average in EU), and shadow economy is estimated to be around 25% of GDP while Spain's and Portugal's is around 20%.

The problem is that these figures of corruption and bribery derive from around 1,4% of the population, so you can understand why most Greeks feel that the plan to get the country out of the crisis is wrong and unfair, as it targets law-abiding citizens...
 
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I enjoyed this article about Greece this morning so thought to post.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/05/03/greeces-problem-is-high-tax-rates-not-tax-evasion/

Greece’s Problem Is High Tax Rates, Not Tax Evasion

Posted by Daniel J. Mitchell

The New York Times has an article describing widespread tax evasion in Greece, along with an implication that the country’s fiscal crisis is largely the result of unpaid taxes and could be mostly solved if taxpayers were more obedient to the state. This is grossly inaccurate. A quick look at the budget numbers reveals that tax revenues have remained relatively constant in recent years, consuming nearly 40 percent of GDP. The burden of government spending, by contrast, has jumped significantly and now exceeds 50 percent of Greek economic output.

The article also is flawed in assuming that harsher enforcement is the key to compliance. As this video shows, even the economists at the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development admit that tax evasion is driven by high tax rates (which is remarkable since the OECD is the international bureaucracy pushing for global tax rules to undermine tax competition and reduce fiscal sovereignty).

Ironically, the New York Times article quotes Friedrich Schneider of Johannes Kepler University in Austria, but only to provide an estimate of Greece’s shadow economy. The reporter should have looked at an article that Schneider wrote for the International Monetary Fund, which found that:

Macroeconomic and microeconomic modeling studies based on data for several countries suggest that the major driving forces behind the size and growth of the shadow economy are an increasing burden of tax and social security payments… The bigger the difference between the total cost of labor in the official economy and the after-tax earnings from work, the greater the incentive for employers and employees to avoid this difference and participate in the shadow economy. …Several studies have found strong evidence that the tax regime influences the shadow economy. …In Austria, the burden of direct taxes (including social security payments) has been the biggest influence on the growth of the shadow economy… Other studies show similar results for the Scandinavian countries, Germany, and the United States. In the United States, analysis shows that as the marginal federal personal income tax rate increases by one percentage point, other things being equal, the shadow economy grows by 1.4 percentage points. …A study of Quebec City in Canada shows that people are highly mobile between the official and the shadow economy, and that as net wages in the official economy go up, they work less in the shadow economy. This study also emphasizes that where people perceive the tax rate as too high, an increase in the (marginal) tax rate will lead to a decrease in tax revenue.

It is worth noting the Schneider’s research also shows why Obama’s tax policy is very misguided. The President wants to boost the top tax rate by nearly five percentage points, and that’s on top of the big increase in the tax rate on saving and investment included in Obamacare. Based on Schneider’s research, we can expect America’s underground economy to expand.

Shifting back to Greece, Schneider does not claim that tax rates are the only factor determining compliance. But his research indicates that more onerous enforcement regimes are unlikely to put much of a dent in tax evasion unless accompanied by better tax policy (i.e., lower tax rates). Moreover, compliance also is undermined by the rampant corruption and incompetence of the Greek government, but that problem won’t be solved unless politicians reduce the size and scope of the public sector. Needless to say, that’s not very likely. So when I read some of the details in this excerpt from the New York Times, much of my sympathy is for taxpayers rather than the greedy politicians that turned Greece into a fiscal mess:

In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools. So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools. That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here. …Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before. …To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker. …Various studies have concluded that Greece’s shadow economy represented 20 to 30 percent of its gross domestic product. Friedrich Schneider, the chairman of the economics department at Johannes Kepler University of Linz, studies Europe’s shadow economies; he said that Greece’s was at 25 percent last year and estimated that it would rise to 25.2 percent in 2010.

Daniel J. Mitchell • May 3, 2010 @ 8:41 am
Filed under: International Economics and Development; Tax and Budget Policy
Tags: big government, debt, deficit, fiscal crisis, government spending, Greece, imf, oecd, tax avoidance, tax evasion, tax rates
 
I think the EU should simply collapse. I'm tired of the loss of soverignty that comes with a having a European parliament. I'm tired of one nation having to bail out another nation. The EU is the modern-day USSR.
 
The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.
 
The collapse of the EU would lead to the collapse of Europe as a whole, economically and socially. Let's hope the EU endures and thrives.

The collapse of the EU may lead to an economic for the Eurozone, but it wouldn't lead to the social collapse of the EU. At this point of time, the European Parliament has too much over the parliaments of its member nations. The Schengen Area makes it easy for drug traffickers to distribute their goods throughout Europe. The EU has gone too far.
 

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