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Thread: Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    Actually no, the oldest known coats of arms (and flag) representing Croatia was different. It was, to cite from Croatian wikipedia page of "Coat of arms of Croatia" ( where you can see the two pictures ) translated "According to medieval coins that were in use on the Croatian territory, it seems that at least of 12 Century (1196) Croatian coat of arms was a [yellow or golden] six-pointed morning star (or Danica - actually planet Venera) above a [white or silver] crescent moon." [on a red flag] "...These elements of the arms are included in many Croatian noblemen [dunno who] and city coat of arms (eg coat of arms of Gradec and Zagreb (capital of Croatia), at least since the 14th century, the coat of arms of Varaždin at least since the 15th century)..."

    As for noblemen families Frankopan family used this CoA until 1430 year.

    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datotek..._(do_1430).JPG

    " The Frankopan family ranked next to the Zrinski family in importance by virtue of their power, wealth, fame, glory and role in Croatia's public life. They were so called only by the first half of the fifteenth century because of their affinity with the Roman patrician Frangipani family. However, they were mentioned in the year 1133 (with Dujam being the first recorded name of the Frankopans) as rulers and lords of the island of Krk and part of the littoral. " Were Frankopan family a nobility with Croatian gene lines?

    "Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people..."

    Indeed, can this "oldest known Croatian CoA/Flag" somehow be connected with what how yes no wrote in his post

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post377703

    To cite:

    " Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
    btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...

    Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
    serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english

    Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....


    The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    thus, Seri = day
    Zorya = dawn
    Sera = Dera = fleece..
    Seri = day and bull



    The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....


    Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these



    this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....

    land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...





    Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart



    interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


    Zorya is also associated with moon


    Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya



    13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

    thus,
    Dera = Sera = fleece
    Zorya = dawn
    dan = day
    Seri = day and bull
    Sar = moon

    Sar+dan = moon+day

    moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")




    The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
    The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
    The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

    tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...

    isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...


    isn't it same motive as celtic cross?


    Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart "

    Is this picture representing veritable the Sarmatians?



    Can we connect Croatian "oldest CoA" and "sahovnica" with coat of arms of Polish nobility?:

    http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/archives/RTP/Polish1.html

    Did Croats, Serbs, (or Sea people) influenced the Coat of Arms of the:

    Czech Republic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of...Czech_Republic

    Bulgaria

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria

    Romania [ note the bull ]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania

    as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_heraldry with Wallachia CoA

    Look at the Caucasian Avars flag
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars

    Is the crescent moon heritage of Avars in Croatia?
    Crescent moon and six pointed star is Illyrian coat of arms , not Croatian . Yes Poland and Chezch coat of arms are both related to Croatian - that are the places where White Croats lived .Everything else is only asumptions based on linguistic similarity

  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Actually this whole notion of the I2a-Din clade as peculiarly associated with the Sarmatians is rather fanciful (and not only because we don't actually have any aDNA to back it up). It's being asserted repeatedly by posters who would like the (or some of the) South Slavs to be "Sarmatians", largely on the basis of what they understand from snippets in Diodorus Siculus and Pliny... Diodorus' notion of an early "Sarmatian" destruction of "Scythia" has recently been devastated by archaeologists (Browse through the online literature at www.pontos.dk) so much so that one must ask oneself what this author could have meant by this ca. 50 BCE when the text first appeared... Perhaps he was thinking of the lambasting of Bastarnia by the Yazigi and Roxolan allies of Burebista in the years following the collapse of Mithradatus' enterprise. This was about the time of the birth of the MCRA of Din-S acc. to Ken Nordvedt's computations. The association of Pliny's Caucasus "Sarmatian" tribal units with the areas south of the Danube hardly predates Avar times. The Slavs they led were largely Din-N and S. But the thin aristocratic groups which gave the new peoples their current names may not have shared this anyway (we don't know and probably never shall).
    This is not truth first : many other sources not only Diodorus telling about Saramathian conquest of Scythia second : Emperor Constantine settled 500.000 Sarmathian Yazigi on Balkans and that is south of Danube and before Avars

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawklutz View Post
    Now that I think about possible connections between I2a2 and Scythians, the first thing which enters my head is Chernoles culture - the Scythian ploughmen. Ethnically and anthropologically these were different from Scythian warriors - the ruling elite class, which resided in the Pontic steppe and were the migrants from the east. The high figures of I2a2 in Moldova should be attributed to the Slavic tribes of Ulychs and Tyverts who came from the north (Western Ukraine).
    I also support the hypothesis of Verenich that I2a2 is the result of Medieval slavic migrations from the territory of Western Ukraine.
    I2a1b in Ukraine and Moldova are from Antes and Rusini ( Boiki ) and white Croats that settled there in VII century

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    What sources other than Diodorus pray tell?
    Constantine is reputed to have settled 300,000 Sarmatian "Argagarantes" (also called "masters" by Ammianus), and not just in the Balkans but also in Italy. But we don't see much I2a1b1 in Italy. The Roman empire absorbed these new arrivals just as easily as it had absorbed the Bastarnians and the Carpi. The plague of Justinian also decimated these older populations. Then the Slavs arrived en masse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    What sources other than Diodorus pray tell?
    Constantine is reputed to have settled 300,000 Sarmatian "Argagarantes" (also called "masters" by Ammianus), and not just in the Balkans but also in Italy. But we don't see much I2a1b1 in Italy. The Roman empire absorbed these new arrivals just as easily as it had absorbed the Bastarnians and the Carpi. The plague of Justinian also decimated these older populations. Then the Slavs arrived en masse.
    For instance Tacitus , ...
    Argaragantes were real Sarmathians , Limigantes were they "slaves " - subdued nations mainly composed of Dacians and Scythians - Slavs among others . This is first time I hier Constantine settled them in Italy , he settled them only in Thracia - no Barbarian nation had ever been settled in Italy - they needed them to protect borders - and there is no borders in Italy , and they wanted them away from capitol city - Rome .
    Who say Slavs arrived in masses - there is only few Slavic tribes that entered Balkans and mainly in Thracia , Thesalonici aeria and two in Peloponesus ( Milingi could be Serbian tribe , so maybe only one Slavic tribe - Jezerites ) . We dont even know how and when do they get in - no source speack about that , we could only guess they entered betwen Fokas rebelion and first attack on Thessaloniki . We also dont know how many of them was there - so it is realy bold to say masses

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    Serbs and Croats entered Balkans separately from Slavs after 626 and was called by emperor Herakleos -Croats : to protect Dalmatia from Avars ( so Avars was in Dalmatia , not Slavs ) and Serbs : to protect Thessaloniki from Slavs , only they didnt like it there and moved to Dalmatia next to Croats .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    For instance Tacitus , ...
    Argaragantes were real Sarmathians , Limigantes were they "slaves " - subdued nations mainly composed of Dacians and Scythians - Slavs among others . This is first time I hier Constantine settled them in Italy , he settled them only in Thracia - no Barbarian nation had ever been settled in Italy - they needed them to protect borders - and there is no borders in Italy , and they wanted them away from capitol city - Rome .
    Who say Slavs arrived in masses - there is only few Slavic tribes that entered Balkans and mainly in Thracia , Thesalonici aeria and two in Peloponesus ( Milingi could be Serbian tribe , so maybe only one Slavic tribe - Jezerites ) . We dont even know how and when do they get in - no source speack about that , we could only guess they entered betwen Fokas rebelion and first attack on Thessaloniki . We also dont know how many of them was there - so it is realy bold to say masses
    Tacitus wrote nothing about the conquest of Scythia by the Sarmatians.
    And it's too bad you didn't read the Origo Constantinis imperatoris (with details of the settlement of Sarmatian refugees in Italy)
    Generally speaking you seem to need a lot of refresher courses (:=))
    I advise you to start with some of the recent articles available in www.pontos.dk to which I earlier referred you.

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    Maybe you should read Tacitus once more :) he say Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them .
    I didnt read Origo Constantinus Imperatoris so you would have to help me : where in Italy did they were settled ? How many of them ? Because I know 500.000 was settled in Thracia .
    Which article ? If you talk about one about burial customs he refers at time period betwen 500-200 BC and in that time Sarmathians werent there . There is clear difference betwen Sarmathians and Scythians - Sarmathians had woman wariors and burried them , Scythians havent , ofcourse there is lot of simmilarities .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Maybe you should read Tacitus once more :) he say Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them .
    I didnt read Origo Constantinus Imperatoris so you would have to help me : where in Italy did they were settled ? How many of them ? Because I know 500.000 was settled in Thracia .
    Which article ? If you talk about one about burial customs he refers at time period betwen 500-200 BC and in that time Sarmathians werent there . There is clear difference betwen Sarmathians and Scythians - Sarmathians had woman wariors and burried them , Scythians havent , ofcourse there is lot of simmilarities .
    1) Where does Tacitus write that "Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them "? Reference please.
    2) Here is an English translation of the OIC (=Anonymus Valesianus, composed around 390 CE):
    http://www.constantinethegreatcoins....ine/Origo.html
    "When peace with the Goths had thus been secured, Constantine turned against the Sarmatians, who were showing themselves to be of doubtful loyalty. But the slaves of the Sarmatians rebelled against all their masters and drove them from the country. These Constantine willingly received, and distributed more than three hundred thousand people of different ages and both sexes through Thrace, Scythia, Macedonia, and Italy."
    So it's not 500,000, but 300,000 "of different ages and both sexes". To make things simpler, say 1/2:1/2 male-female (arbitrary). Of the 150,000 males (we know from another source) some (the warriors) were directly incorporated into the Roman cavalry. Others were settled on the land. Four distinct areas: By "Scythia" here is meant the Dobrudja south of the Danube. Divide by four (we have no reason not to): that makes 37,500 each for the four areas. And so the question: where is the Italian I2a-Din? Of course since in my view there was no I2a-Din among these anywhere, it's no surprise there wasn't any in Italy.
    3) One of the Pontos articles demonstrates that classical Scythia was depopulated between ca. 300 BCE and ca. 175 BCE. Archaeology knows of no Sarmatians there at that time (they stayed east of the Don). The first Sarmatians appear in the later 2nd c. BCE, as vassals of the Scythians. Then all that complex is conquered by Mithradates and his generals. After the death of Mithradates, there is a "war of all against all" there (including the newcomer Bastarnians). The Sarmatians (Yazigi and Roxolani) ally with Burebista's Getae and help Burebista to destroy Olbia plus a number of other Lower Dnipro Scythian cities. I think that is probably what Diodorus was writing about in the edition of his work which came out in 49 BCE. Historians have misunserstood the Scythian withdrawal to Central Asia in 300 BCE as a Sarmatian-prompted event. It was not.
    Last edited by razor; 26-10-11 at 17:23. Reason: spelling

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    Don'tbreak the interesting discussion with childish croat-nazi propaganda

    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
    2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.
    JORO please, this was a very interesting thread until you came into saying nonsense things such as the serbs come from the slaves. In spanish CROAT is said CROATA which is similar to CROQUETA (the meal "croquette") but we are not so silly to infer that croatians come from croquettes.
    I have reading theories on the origins of serbs and croats for months, from authors of many countries, and that theory you quote from De Administrando Imperio (that of the serbs name derive from the slave word) is that which every scholar rejects as absurd. There is so overwhelming scientific information about this matter, that I will not lose time arguing; you can search it easily. Please get you STUPIDITY RELATED TO YOUR CROAT PURE RACE out of this interesting forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yosepei View Post
    childish
    Quote Originally Posted by Yosepei View Post
    nazi
    Quote Originally Posted by Yosepei View Post
    you STUPIDITY
    Infraction... not a good start, Yosepei. Try to adopt a more civil tone. Feel free to cite and quote from the sources that you say contradict Joro. That will be a lot more effective than your first post.

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    interesting parts - see nelow, pages 9. 10 , 11 and beyond
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...danian&f=false

    Is the settlement of Bastanae in south west balkans, surely they bought R1a and some I2a into the balkans before the slavs did
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In my opinion Eupedia's Haplogroup Description fits well with archaelogical data.
    The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture had an heavy influence on ancient populations structure in Eastern Europe.
    The settlements had up to 15,000 inhabitants(the largest in Neolithic Europe) and the density was impressive too.
    So i can't imagine Dacian ethnogenesis without Cucuteni-Triplye people.The haplogroup that fits this description is I2a2.
    The indoeuropeans carried this haplogroup to the North, South and West covering an area who will be known as the Thracian land.The eastern part of this culture is known(in Ucrainian and Southern Russian steppes) as Cimmerian homeland.Herodotus says that Cimmerians were Thracians ruled by a Scythian elite.According to Herodotus the Thracians (including Dacians) were second largest population after Indians,which is an exageration, but if you think of Cucuteni -Tripolye culture he had his reasons to say that.The Scithyans and later the Sarmatians lived in the vast steppes but there's low density there.Roman writers said that The Hunns and The Avars were quite a few(only a rulling elite).They came from these steppes as other Turkic populations.I think most of the Turks were in fact ethnic Scithyans/Sarmatians. They had many names not because they were in great number ,but Turkish elite changed. I don't know when Haplogroup Q spreaded to Baltic and Scandinavia , but i think Scithyans had much greater power in 7th century BC then any other Turkic tribe.
    My opinion is that Tracians had more Neolithic genes J2 and E than I2a2.Cause genetic boundary are different from linguistic one.They had more R1a(Corded Ware,Northern Yamna) than R1b (Cernavoda -Ezero).The Dacians instead had much more I2a2 then E and J2, and R1a/R1b ratio would be 2:1 for R1a.The Getae were the same as Dacians in language(their placemanes ends with -dava too,and they had the same names as Dacians).The Getae lived in the southern Romanian plains and northern Bulgaria across the Danube.They match with Neolithic cultures with southern influences,and with Cernavoda-Ezero culture. They had more J2 and E than the Dacians, but mostly I2a2.As well had more R1b than the Dacians,but mostly R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    In my opinion Eupedia's Haplogroup Description fits well with archaelogical data.
    The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture had an heavy influence on ancient populations structure in Eastern Europe.
    The settlements had up to 15,000 inhabitants(the largest in Neolithic Europe) and the density was impressive too.
    So i can't imagine Dacian ethnogenesis without Cucuteni-Triplye people.The haplogroup that fits this description is I2a2.
    I assume you mean old I2a2, current I2a1b (which includes I2a-Din). How specific are you willing to go in terms of subclades that you think Cucuteni-Tripolye had? Just I2a-Din (I2a1b1a)? Or also Disles? Also Isles?

    Because if we go with just I2a-Din, it seems too young to me... Cucuteni-Tripolye culture ended before the TMRCA of I2a-Din, meaning we would need a large bottleneck of I2a-Din. It also seems that a culture with settlements as large as Cucuteni-Tripolye culture would then be a poor candidate to have carried a haplogroup, at least in significant numbers, that would later bottleneck so severely.

    If you extend it to all of I2a1b1, including Disles, you have my attention. The TMRCA of that subclade as a whole could be dated within the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture, and there's enough temporal distance with it and I2a1b2 to explain the geographic disparity. But we still need a weird/unexpected bottleneck and migration pattern afterward.

    IMHO Cucuteni-Tripolye culture is a candidate to have carried I2a1b as a minority, but little more, and I also suspect that modern I2a1b1 individuals are not descended patrilineally from individuals within Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (although I don't discount it entirely). I would look perhaps a bit farther west to find an archaeological culture that fits I2a1b1's distribution so long ago, as I2a1 as a whole is quite a western haplogroup... or would have been, back then.

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    Sarmatians were probably R1a people without significant I2a-Din...


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27187-Sarmatians-in-Gaul&p=390602#post390602

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    Haplogroup I2, I2a and I2a2 are very common among Kurdish people in North Iraq (Kurdistan) 17 % and Turkey (Kurdistan) 20%. This haplogroup most likely originated in Middle East.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar View Post
    Haplogroup I2, I2a and I2a2 are very common among Kurdish people in North Iraq (Kurdistan) 17 % and Turkey (Kurdistan) 20%.
    There are indications that I2 is unexpectedly high among Kurds, but we don't really understand yet which subclades. I2a2a (old I2b1) has been found in a Kurd, as has I1 and maybe I2c. Otherwise, no studies have confirmed subclades. All of these have good evidence that they originated in Europe, and since the I2a2a Kurd is P78-, that indicates that they all came from Central Europe, at least those that we have found so far.

    But so far we haven't found in any Kurds the I2a1b (old I2a2) that's being discussed in this thread. It has been found in an Iraqi Arab, but it's the non-Eastern European I2a1b2-Isles type, not I2a1b1a-Dinaric that's present in the Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar View Post
    This haplogroup most likely originated in Middle East.
    No, it most likely originated in Europe. At least, that's where the highest diversity of every subclade discovered so far is. And it's highest in Central and Western Europe to boot. See my Paleolithic Remnants map for a visualization of that.

  18. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    No, it most likely originated in Europe. At least, that's where the highest diversity of every subclade discovered so far is. And it's highest in Central and Western Europe to boot.
    My assumption based on IJ haplogroup ( Proto-semitic ? ) as you know haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia and Southwest Asia and IJ is still exists but it is very rare

  19. #344
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar View Post
    IJ haplogroup ( Proto-semitic ? )
    There's no serious doubt that the IJ haplogroup predates the proto-Semitic language. A typical guess for when proto-Semitic existed is about 4000 BCE IIRC. But IJ is probably over 35,000 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar View Post
    The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia and Southwest Asia and IJ is still exists but it is very rare
    It's a good assumption that IJ originated in Asia, probably the Near East, considering that one of its children (I) apparently originated in Europe, and the other (J) apparently originated in the Near East. And since we know that the movement of people has been from the Near East into Europe, it's a good assumption that the Near East was the origin of the whole.

    Haplogroup I in Asia, although present, has not yet been shown to be ancient there. I2c-B is quite common among Armenians, for example, but it's a very young subclade with origins around the Rhine, consistent with the fact that Haplogroup I appears to be most ancient in Europe.

    And there's no indication that undifferentiated IJ still exists, I don't know why you suggest that.

  20. #345
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    oldest I*-M170 shows clear I haplogroup was generated in Middle east

    Unfortunately I can not place a link

    I*-M170 (oldest)

    The composite subclade I contains individuals directly descended from the earliest members of Haplogroup I, bearing none of the subsequent mutations which identify the remaining named subclades.
    Several haplogroup I-M170 individuals who do not fall in known subclades, with some of the greatest Y-STR diversity, have significantly been found among the populations of Turkey (8/741) Adygea (2/138), and Iraq (1/176),even though as a whole Haplogroup I-M170 occurs at only very low frequencies among modern populations of the Middle East and Caucasus. This is consistent with the belief that the haplogroup first appeared in that region. Overall, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I-M170 appear to be found among the Andalusians (3/103 )French (4/179),Slovanians (2/55), Tabassarans (1/30) and the Saami (1/35). The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21), although only 21 Laks were tested.


  21. #346
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar View Post
    Unfortunately I can not place a link

    I*-M170 (oldest)

    The composite subclade I contains individuals directly descended from the earliest members of Haplogroup I, bearing none of the subsequent mutations which identify the remaining named subclades.
    Several haplogroup I-M170 individuals who do not fall in known subclades, with some of the greatest Y-STR diversity, have significantly been found among the populations of Turkey (8/741) Adygea (2/138), and Iraq (1/176),even though as a whole Haplogroup I-M170 occurs at only very low frequencies among modern populations of the Middle East and Caucasus. This is consistent with the belief that the haplogroup first appeared in that region. Overall, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I-M170 appear to be found among the Andalusians (3/103 )French (4/179),Slovanians (2/55), Tabassarans (1/30) and the Saami (1/35). The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21), although only 21 Laks were tested.

    I can place a link. It's from Wikipedia. And it's basically wrong. The links it gives are to studies that did not test for I2a2b, I2b, or I2c SNPs, which are probably the subclades that are popping up as "I*." The claim to "some of the greatest Y-STR diversity" seems to be made up, as the cited studies only tested SNPs from what I can tell. Both Nordtvedt and ISOGG confirm that true I* is unobserved. As I've already said, the greatest STR diversity for every subclade of I that has been found in Asia so far is in Europe.

  22. #347
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    Hallo from Montenegro!
    Montenegrins, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians obviously has the same DNA.Than, we are the same people, or nation, whatever.Plus, we have the same language, with some variations less than 5%. DNA is in blood, and blood is not water and doesnt lying. However, I respect ethnic diversity, but I belive thats emotional condition of consence of every individuals, only. There is many proofs of our common ethnicity - The South Slavs.And that I will contribute in the future.So long!

  23. #348
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    It is obvious to me that I2a2-Dinaric among South Slavs came with Slavic expansion.All of the I2a2 among South Slavs is from the I2a2-Dinaric kind which means a recent founder effect.Moreover the highest diversity seems to be inbetween Romania and Ukraine.

  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cooper View Post
    I'm calling it still I2a2, you call it I2a1b, we both know about which HG we are talking about, so... You wanna tell me that such a great amount of HG I2a2 was "transported" with Croats and Serbs from today Ukraine, all the way trough Poland to present day Croatia in this precentege of I2a2 as we have today in Croatia and Bosnia (highest in Europe)? How can that be possible? Were they traveling with Space ships? Because we are not talking about few days or years of migrations, but 4 and 5 centuries, we are talking here about 500 years of Croatian traveling from Today Ukraine, once Sarmatian lands, across Poland to Croatia...
    I2a1b is brought from Slavs in present day Balkans.

  25. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montenegro View Post
    Hallo from Montenegro!
    Montenegrins, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians obviously has the same DNA.Than, we are the same people, or nation, whatever.Plus, we have the same language, with some variations less than 5%. DNA is in blood, and blood is not water and doesnt lying. However, I respect ethnic diversity, but I belive thats emotional condition of consence of every individuals, only. There is many proofs of our common ethnicity - The South Slavs.And that I will contribute in the future.So long!
    Well i would exclude Montenegrins from the list you mentioned, they have too high E-V13.

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