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Thread: Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    But Croats at the time lived behind Bagibaree, where now are White Croats (Belohrobatoi).
    Emperor Heraclius was sent, and brought from Rome, priests, and made of them an archbishop and a bishop and priests and deacons, and baptized the Croats.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius
    From the Croats who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian), they also had their own independent prince.
    From a letter of Pope Gregory I (Grgur) 600. year
    Because of the Slavs that threatens you, etc.. worried because they (Slavs) started entering Italy through Istria(Croatia).
    Pope John IV (640-642)
    He sent abbot Martin to Dalmatia and Istria to redeem prisoners who Pagans captured.
    642.(from the letter of Paul Deacon)
    Slavs near the city Siponta (southern Italy)...they come with ships from dalmatia.
    Historia Salonitana 13th century..
    From the Polish territories called Lingonia seven or eight tribal clans arrived under Totilo. When they saw that the Croatian land would be suitable for habitation because in it there were few Roman colonies, they sought and obtained for their duke...The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Salonitana
    The Croatian R1a-Y2608 also expanded from Poland during the early medieval period, but via Czechia, Slovakia, Austria and Slovenia..
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
    While we agree that the white croats ( some say they are known as the Antes)entered Dalmatia no earlier than 610AD , we have no proof on what ydna they brought.
    Since we have knowledge than illyrian origins are basically the lands of east-austria, slovenia, friuli, dalmatia and pannonia we know what ydna are basically in these areas pre-roman times in the early iron age from the 2014 paper by Francesca Brisighelli
    Granted we do have a high mix of Illyrian and venetic ydna for these areas.
    Since R1a, R1b, I1 is the majority in these areas in the early iron age , we have no idea what the white croats brought with them
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    While we agree that the white croats ( some say they are known as the Antes)entered Dalmatia no earlier than 610AD , we have no proof on what ydna they brought.
    Since we have knowledge than illyrian origins are basically the lands of east-austria, slovenia, friuli, dalmatia and pannonia we know what ydna are basically in these areas pre-roman times in the early iron age from the 2014 paper by Francesca Brisighelli
    Granted we do have a high mix of Illyrian and venetic ydna for these areas.
    Since R1a, R1b, I1 is the majority in these areas in the early iron age , we have no idea what the white croats brought with them
    When Slavs (White Croats) come to Dalmatia local people fled to Italy and Albania.

    There are not many mutation I-S17250 in Italy, which means that in time of Croats arrival to Dalmatia they(local people) have not much I2a I-S17250.

    I2a I-S17250 exist in south Italy, probably from escaped Croats during Turks occupation ... In that area currently live Croatian minority that escaped during Turks okupation.

    In northwestern Albania exists I2a I-S17250, but there are records of Croatian state(Red Croatia) all the way Drač in today's northwestern Albania.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs

    "And from the field of Dalmae (Duvno) (Southe Bosna) to the city of Dyrrachium (Durrës) (Albania) is Red Croatia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Croatia


    As we can see genetics of Croats who fled from Croatia to Italy(Turkish occupation), also we should see genetics of local population fled from Dalmatia(White Croats occupation).







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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    There is no historical record that Serbs come as neighbors of White Croats to Dalmatia.

    For that reason your statement is not correct.

    This land of the Zachlumi was under the emperor of the Romans, but when it and its folk were enslaved by the Avars, it was rendered wholly desolate. Those who live there now, the Zachlumi, are Serbs from the time of that prince who claimed the protection of the emperor Heraclius.
    The country of the Terbouniotes and the Kanalites is one. The inhabitants are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, from the time of that prince who came out of unbaptized Serbia and claimed the protection of the emperor Heraclius until the time of Blastimer, prince of Serbia.
    The country in which the Pagani now dwell was also previously possessed by the Romaniwhom the emperor Diocletian translated from Rome and settled in Dalmatia. These same Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, of the time of that prince who claimed the protection of the emperor Heraclius.
    And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans;
    Quotes are from De Administrando Imperio .

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Quotes are from De Administrando Imperio .
    Originally Posted by hrvat22There is no historical record that Serbs come as neighbors of White Croats to Dalmatia.


    For that reason your statement is not correct.
    You did not mentioned fact that Serbs coming to Dalmatia, for that reason your statement is not true.Serbs never came to Dalmatia from neighborhood of White Croats and that's a fact. There is no written record of it.

    For this reason they can not be a source of I-PH908 and your claim
    The predominant haplogroup of early Serbs was I-PH908
    is incorrect.

    It is true that in Serbians mutation I-PH908 is White Croatian origin and comes to Roman Dalmatia with Croats who later became Serbs and others.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 20-09-17 at 17:36.

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    hrvat22 is a same-titled ignorant trell from Croatian "Forum.hr". He does not know the difference between terms haplogroup (SNP) and haplotype (STR), he believes that Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North haplotypes are outdated terms related to nomenclature like I1, EU7 not in use anymore because he, literally, cannot find "Dinaric-South" on the phylogenetic tree at ISOGG, while repeatedly calling I-S17250 and other haplogroups as haplotypes. When citing YFull he does not how to cite it properly nor knows the difference between "formed age" and "TMRCA", hence considering that I-PH908 is older than I-S17250. He is basically spamming the threads with delusional and chauvinistic idea, see previous page, that the I-S17250 is "indefensible and ultimately", "exclusively", "forever and irrefutably" White Croatian mutation i.e. that all Slavs are of (White) Croatian origin, irrelevant the fact that the majority of South Slavs (including Croats) belong to Dinaric-South cluster and SNP I-PH908 (although until now was not found a single ancient sample to confirm such White Croatian hypothesis nor current age estimation support it), while the vast majority of I-S17250 is being made by Dinaric-North cluster and haplogroups. He is practically propagating an extremist pro-Croatian perspective in revolt to the extremist pro-Serbian perspective about I-PH908, but he expanded it to the I-S17250 also.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miroslav View Post
    hrvat22 is a same-titled ignorant trell from Croatian "Forum.hr". He does not know the difference between terms haplogroup (SNP) and haplotype (STR), he believes that Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North haplotypes are outdated terms related to nomenclature like I1, EU7 not in use anymore because he, literally, cannot find "Dinaric-South" on the phylogenetic tree at ISOGG, while repeatedly calling I-S17250 and other haplogroups as haplotypes. When citing YFull he does not how to cite it properly nor knows the difference between "formed age" and "TMRCA", hence considering that I-PH908 is older than I-S17250. He is basically spamming the threads with delusional and chauvinistic idea, see previous page, that the I-S17250 is "indefensible and ultimately", "exclusively", "forever and irrefutably" White Croatian mutation i.e. that all Slavs are of (White) Croatian origin, irrelevant the fact that the majority of South Slavs (including Croats) belong to Dinaric-South cluster and SNP I-PH908 (although until now was not found a single ancient sample to confirm such White Croatian hypothesis nor current age estimation support it), while the vast majority of I-S17250 is being made by Dinaric-North cluster and haplogroups. He is practically propagating an extremist pro-Croatian perspective in revolt to the extremist pro-Serbian perspective about I-PH908, but he expanded it to the I-S17250 also.
    This is a father I2a1b2a1a1aS17250/YP204

    This is a son ​I2a1b2a1a1a3PH908

    Therefore son can not be older than father, this is logic.

    https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html


    Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
    Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of affiliates that have the common denominator of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. It can not be said about Lužičani Serbs and Danubian Serbs - they are too different in the line.
    http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel...j-civilizacii/

    the principal determining event that allowed I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

    In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.
    So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
    originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
    extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
    course Date: 20 May 2014.
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1400615460
    White Croats are group of Slavic tribes who lived among other West and East Slavic tribes in the area of Bohemia, Lesser Poland, Galicia (north of Carpathian Mountains) and Western Ukraine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

    The second haplotype of Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now it does not know the source of the same ... probably in southern Poland but it needs to be determined.
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2000000001&z=2

    http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdf


    Since genetics only confirms arrival of the Croat to the Balkans(written record from the 10th), the only logical conclusion is that mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin and everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin.

    This is logic and logic is stronger than steel.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miroslav View Post
    hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.
    Since genetics only confirms arrival of the Croat to the Balkans(written record from the 10th), the only logical conclusion is that mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin and everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin.
    All that I have quoted historical record nor genetics challenged, logically leads to conclusion that I'm telling truth and that you lie.

    Regarding experimental Ytree and age of some subclade this is not relevant, only what is officially relevant is https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

    And there is written that subclade I2a1b2a1a1aS17250/YP204 is older than subclade ​I2a1b2a1a1a3PH908. End of story.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Informal logic is the study of natural language arguments. The study of fallacies is an important branch of informal logic. Since much informal argument is not strictly speaking deductive, on some conceptions of logic, informal logic is not logic at all.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From White Croatia to Croatia comes Croats.
    This is logic.

    From White Croatia to Croatia comes Turkmens.
    This is not logic.

    From White Croatia and areas in White Croatia with a Turkmen national minority to Croatia comes Turkmens.
    This is logic.

    From White Croatia to Croatia comes Bosniaks.
    This is not logic.

    And because it is not logical it is not true either.

    If there was no logic then to the Balkans from White Croatia comes Dukljans, Tribals, Dalmatians, Bosnians, Morlachs, Vlachs, Croats, Rascians, Paganians, Zahumians, Zetas, Montenegrins, Slavs, Serbs,Travunians..

    Let's just keep up the logic...it's a lot healthier.

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    The premises need to be correct !

    Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years.

    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/Featur...roatiaName.htm

    A valid argument moves from premises to conclusions in a logical and consistent manner. Needless to say the premises need to be correct otherwise the argument may be “valid” but not represent reality or “truth”.
    https://www.quora.com/How-do-a-genui...rgument-differ

    "Slavic ethnicity is therefore shown to be a Byzantine invention."

    http://www.limesromanus.org/sites/al...he%20Slavs.pdf

    The origin of the Croats before the great migration of the Slavs is uncertain.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._of_the_Croats'

    The Avar, also known as Avar-Bulgarian, Bulgarian or Turkic theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.[13] He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group, as well derived the Croatian title Ban from the personal name of Avar khagan Bayan I and Kubrat's son Batbayan.[13]

    https://books.google.se/books?id=h_Q...kubrat&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The premises need to be correct !

    Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years.

    http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/Featur...roatiaName.htm

    A valid argument moves from premises to conclusions in a logical and consistent manner. Needless to say the premises need to be correct otherwise the argument may be “valid” but not represent reality or “truth”.
    https://www.quora.com/How-do-a-genui...rgument-differ

    "Slavic ethnicity is therefore shown to be a Byzantine invention."

    http://www.limesromanus.org/sites/al...he%20Slavs.pdf

    The origin of the Croats before the great migration of the Slavs is uncertain.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._of_the_Croats'

    The Avar, also known as Avar-Bulgarian, Bulgarian or Turkic theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.[13] He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group, as well derived the Croatian title Ban from the personal name of Avar khagan Bayan I and Kubrat's son Batbayan.[13]

    https://books.google.se/books?id=h_Q...kubrat&f=false
    But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia. You did not deny genetic arrival of Croats and only Croats to Balkans.
    Everything else is logic.

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    "But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia."


    Can you show some proof,please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "But main haplotype in Croats still comes from White Croatia."


    Can you show some proof,please?
    In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.
    http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
    originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
    extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
    course Date: 20 May 2014.
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1400615460

    Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
    Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of affiliates that have the common denominator of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. The Serbs and the Danubian Serbs can not say that they are too different from the vines ...
    http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel...j-civilizacii/

    White Croats were a group of Slavic tribes who lived among other West and East Slavic tribes in the area of Bohemia, Lesser Poland, Galicia (north of Carpathian Mountains) and Western Ukraine.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

    Over a thousand years ago, the land of Slavs, known as Great or White Croatia, existed in the Carpathian area. In the archives of the Vatican archives, short Greek records were created, dating back to the 1330s at the latest. They reported that between the cities of Galicia and Volodymyr the city of Stolsky - the residence of the Galician metropolis.
    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1...8C%D0%BA%D0%BE

    In this article author describes archaeological excavations in the town of Stiljsko in Ukraine, which enabled researchers to reconstruct some aspects of historical and cultural development in this region during the early middle ages. On the basis of these revelations author points up that in the ninth century there existed one of the greatest fortifi ed settlements of Croats in the eastern-Karpatian region.
    Stiljsko ..From 6. until 9th century of this micro-region in intercourse
    rivers Barvinka, Ilovac, Kolodnica and
    The Zubre, which is left by Dnjistra,
    gave insight into existence in 9th century one
    of the largest in East Carpatian
    region with a strong fortified Croatian
    city. Its fortified area
    it is almost 250 ha long and the length of the defenses
    the line reaches 10 km. Around
    on a site of 200 km2
    .
    there were numerous Croatian sites
    VI.-XI. (naseobine, gradina, grobi-
    what, cult centers). Found rich
    Archaeological material proves that it was old
    Croatian township functioned in
    time from the middle of the IX. to the beginning of XI
    Scientific journals of the Croatian republic
    https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...ak_jezik=17599

    Toponyms in Croatia from Carpathians, one of seven pages
    http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg

    Family of father White Croatian subclade I-S17250 in south Poland
    I-CTS10228

    Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196

    Gmina Dębica, Poland

    Dębica ([dɛmˈbit͡sa]; Yiddish: דעמביץ‎ Dembitz) is a city in southeastern Poland
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%99bicahttps://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

    I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

    The Croatian R1a-Y2608 also expanded from Poland during the same period,
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    The second haplotype of Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now it does not know the source of the same ... probably in southern Poland but it is still to be determined
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...ufrQJyWb4fD9zg

    Russian conclusion...The privileged presence of the haplogroup of I2a Croats, as well as the past molecular genetic studies of settlements of the group area in the 6-7th century, archeological and historical data indicate that I2a belonged mainly to tribes of Croats,
    http://tatur.su/history/novyiy-vzgly...eskim-dannyim/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
    2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.
    Exactly, i fully agree with you.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is true that in Serbians mutation I-PH908 is White Croatian origin and comes to Roman Dalmatia with Croats who later became Serbs and others.
    How laymen produce "evidence" but it is for fun.

    Laymen sometimes seem to know better than experts but that's because they have touched some matter superficially and do not have enough knowledge about the subject.

    According historian scientists Croatian identity emerged in 9th or 10th century in Dalmatia and surrounding.

    Experts from Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, especially Dr Francesco Borri, explained in scientific papers about De Administrando Imperio, narrative and legendary parts, and motives of Eastern Roman emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos for creating alliance with Croats against Bulgarians.

    Dr Francesco Borri:

    "The migration, although becoming an important element in nationalist thought, is not confirmed by any other source, neither contemporary, nor later, being reported only by Constantine. I propose that the migration was instead a literary pattern deployed by the emperor in order to explain the complex developments which brought a new elite, called Croats, to a leading position in tenth-century Dalmatia."

    "What we can affirm with a degree of certainty is that Constantine lent importance to the Croats because he thought they might make good allies against the Bulgars, and he wanted to bring this dynamic, recently formed group to the attention of his successor. The emperor, however, expressed this judgement in a text destined to have a very poor circulation, dedicating to the Croats much less space in writings reaching a wider audience. Moreover, Constantine’s predictions never came about, and the Croats did not become a leading power in the Balkans. The same emperor stated that the amazing military power of the Croats was in decline at the time he was writing, which is perhaps a trace of the difficulties that the group was experiencing in affirming itself."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miroslav View Post
    hrvat22, you're a pathological liar. You were literally writing that PH908 is older than S17250 because you compared YFull PH908 "formed age/TMRCA" with S17250 "TMRCA" YBP, as well you are recycling one and the same quotes, again and again, it became spam, while your consideration that "everyone behind this mutation are White Croatian origin" is nothing but chauvinistic lunacy. You should receive an infraction.
    He doesn't recognize science, he considers worthless scientists of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, and all other scientists, including Croatian scientists.

    What would have been without scientists, experts, specialists when someone is sick if he or she would go to doctor or witch doctor.

    If someone thinks that knows more than scientists, he or she should write and publish a scientific paper in a relevant scientific journal where he or she will refute, with proofs of his or her hypothesis, the existing evidence of science, forums can not help.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Garrick, you are making the same mistake as Hrvat22, as in thread "I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians", you give those scientists viewpoint undue weight and validity although it represents a minority viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    He doesn't recognize science, he considers worthless scientists of Institute of Medieval Research, Vienna, a department of the Austrian Academy of Science, and all other scientists, including Croatian scientists.

    What would have been without scientists, experts, specialists when someone is sick if he or she would go to doctor or witch doctor.

    If someone thinks that knows more than scientists, he or she should write and publish a scientific paper in a relevant scientific journal where he or she will refute, with proofs of his or her hypothesis, the existing evidence of science, forums can not help.
    This is penicillin for you.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

    You do not exist here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    This is penicillin for you.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

    You do not exist here.
    You don't read enough, look at it again.

    But why penicillin, we can have different views, but it is absurdly to think of someone bad on the forum.

    There is thought of Francis Bacon, which is very earthly: "A false friend is more dangerous than open enemy".

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    I2a2 does not exist in Serbs and Croats so this thread is pointless.



    Mods, can you close this thread or change its pointless title?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    I2a2 does not exist in Serbs and Croats so this thread is pointless. Mods, can you close this thread or change its pointless title?
    It does exist, however, what I2a2 meant at the time but since then nomenclature changed and it does not mean the same haplogroup branch anymore. It definitely needs a change of title.

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