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Thread: Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post
    I did not understand..
    For I2a is proven to be Europian ..
    No Iranian, no Martians
    Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
    White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.
    Last edited by Joro; 02-05-10 at 21:09. Reason: maybe that would be hard to accept...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post
    I did not understand..
    For I2a is proven to be Europian ..
    No Iranian, no Martians
    How is it proven?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Obri was the way how they called Avars, please be sure if you really read it.
    yes, I'm sure that I read it, but it could be difficult for me to find it now.
    it was written by russian chroniclers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,SW Serbia,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
    White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.
    Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
    But all these tribes came to this central Europe Area from somewhere. There is no proof they were there forever.
    My assumption is that Migration Period, Huns, Goths and other different causes moved them from their previous homeland in Sarmatia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
    you are the most open minded Serb I've met ever in my life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    They just spoke Iranian in that period. But half of Asia did at that time so this doesn't mean they are Iranian.
    You probably means on that Sarmatian tribe Serboi that is mention by Plinie and Strabo on the river Volga. The question is what was the haplogroup of those tribes? When the Serbs was formed as a nation with name Serbs, and what was dominant haplogroup of that people. We simply now can not answer that questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
    White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.
    This is similar to what iapodos was writing about "Bojka".
    And Red Croats is a bit tendentious don't you agree. Let's just skip it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Yes I agree that could be possible. Even though I'm Serb. ;)
    But all these tribes came to this central Europe Area from somewhere. There is no proof they were there forever.
    My assumption is that Migration Period, Huns, Goths and other different causes moved them from their previous homeland in Sarmatia.
    what about the possibility that Serbs are actually Sarmatians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    This is similar to what iapodos was writing about "Bojka".
    And Red Croats is a bit tendentious don't you agree. Let's just skip it.
    well, let's put it aside for now, but Red Croats are an undeniable possibility.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    what about the possibility that Serbs are actually Sarmatians?
    Yes, there are many possibilities.
    I think it may be the best to forget Serbs and Croats and focus on Sarmatians. If we understand them we will understand everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    How is it proven?
    I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

    GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
    The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.


    From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
    ..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
    ..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
    ..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
    ....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

    Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

    You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

    I do not have license...to link the map
    "ORTHODOXIA E THANATOS"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joro View Post
    well, let's put it aside for now, but Red Croats are an undeniable possibility.
    This Joro is really a joker. Typical serbian mentality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post
    I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

    GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
    The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.


    From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
    ..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
    ..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
    ..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
    ....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

    Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

    You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

    I do not have license...to link the map
    That is not a proof to me.
    This is an eminent Russian site. So if you know Russian:
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,206.30.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post
    I2a is a major subHaplogroup of Y-Haplogroup "I"

    GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTION OF I2A SUBCLADES
    The Balkan countries likely harbored subclade I2a during the Last Glacial Maximum. Today, this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations; also extends north and west through Europe and into the British Isles.


    From Ken Nordtvedt's "Story of I1b1" comes the following descriptions of the various subclades of I2a:
    ..."Dinaric. (I2a2, M423+) It is mainly found in eastern Europe with frequency peak in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, near the Dinaric Alps."
    ..."Western I2a (I2a* P37.2+)is located more to the northwest in Germany, but appreciable amounts of it are found in the British Isles as well."
    ..."Isles (I2a2, M423+) is almost exclusively found in the British Isles and especially in Ireland."
    ....Sardinian (I2a1, M26+) accounts for about a third of Sardinia ydna, but it is also found at decent frequencies in regions of Italy and Iberia. It is also scattered up the Atlantic seaboard of Europe and into the British Isles. SNP M26+ defines this subhaplogroup of I2a but its extremely unique YCAIIa,b motif makes an SNP unnecessary for its identification." I add to this that Sardinia is not necessarily the origin of M26 but rather, probably a recipient of M26 from the mainland. SubHaplogroup I2a1 is very common in Sardinia and was likely among the first humans to populate the island about 9000 years ago. It is also found in the western Mediterranean and western Europe at lower frequencies. Unlike I2a, I2a1 is not present east of the Adriatic Sea.

    Here's a link to a map showing locations of most of the current SNP's of Haplogroup I throughout Europe ..

    You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 10 posts or more.

    I do not have license...to link the map
    I would say it is little bit too old information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

    Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

    And please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.
    I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
    Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

    Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

    There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    This Joro is really a joker. Typical serbian mentality.
    Serbian mentality...very well described

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    That is not a proof to me.
    This is an eminent Russian site. So if you know Russian:

    Russian site

    When you ask the Russians, the whole world are Slavs...

    I2a are Euopian... no Russian... and no Slavs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
    Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

    Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

    There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.
    I didn't think there would be so many ideas that Sarmatians should be closely related to Iranians.
    Today we have Hungarians speaking their own language group and look at their haplogroups.
    My assumption is that language can be easily accepted or imposed by different reasons. As I already wrote half of Asia was speaking Iranian group of languages around 100 AC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post

    Russian site

    When you ask the Russians, the whole world are Slavs...

    I2a are Euopian... no Russian... and no Slavs...
    Most of the ancestors of today's Russians spoke Iranian also.
    I'll try to explain that to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Most of the ancestors of today's Russians spoke Iranian also.
    I'll try to explain that to them.


    You are very funny man



    There is no evidence for you fantasy.. i guess you are supporter off aryan theory of Slavs roots..


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
    Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

    Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

    There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.
    There are no good maps, but I'll try to explain. The year is 500 BC:
    1. There were Scythians living between Carpathians and river Don (western Scythians). My assumption is they were R1a
    2. Sarmatians living between river Don and Caspian Sea
    3. Scythian Sakas between Caspian Sea and China (eastern Scythians). They were also R1a

    Around 300 BC Sarmatians conquered western Scythians and Sarmatia was then spread from Carpathians to Caspian Sea. That was the time R1a and I2a2 started more intensive mixing but Sarmatians who stayed more at the east preserved more I2a2. Those colud be Croats and Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperium Romanorum View Post


    You are very funny man



    There is no evidence for you fantasy.. i guess you are supporter off aryan theory of Slavs roots..

    Look at this map:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

    And also check the data and you will find out that central Asia was highly populated 3000 years ago. At that time rains were much more often in this region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    There are no good maps, but I'll try to explain. The year is 500 BC:
    1. There were Scythians living between Carpathians and river Don (western Scythians). My assumption is they were R1a
    2. Sarmatians living between river Don and Caspian Sea
    3. Scythian Sakas between Caspian Sea and China (eastern Scythians). They were also R1a

    Around 300 BC Sarmatians conquered western Scythians and Sarmatia was then spread from Carpathians to Caspian Sea. That was the time R1a and I2a2 started mixing but Sarmatians who stayed more at the east preserved more I2a2. Those colud be Croats and Serbs.
    You are now mixed Assyrian,s and Iranians..
    Assyrians are true name for Iranians!

    Assyrians are semites as Hebrews or Arabs.Their language is Aramaic , the language Jesus Christ spoke.Aramaic is similar to Hebrew.


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