Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

Really informative thread. Has anyone noticed that I2a and E-V13 have very similiar distribution patterns? Please check the maps for verification.

I've seen stronger. In Southeastern Europe, Greece+Albania continue to have high E-V13 while I2a peters off a bit, and the reverse is true as we head toward Bosnia. E-V13 has a solid presence in Sicily that I2a doesn't share so much; the reverse is true for Sardinia. Both I2a and E-V13 have interesting presences in Spain, but their primary geographic distribution is in opposite regions (East for I2a, West for E-V13). So I think E-V13 and I2a owe their current distributions to different expansions on nearby regions, but I don't see an indication of a particularly ancient expansion together.

What if both used the off shore islands to escape/avoid the incoming waves of horse-riding hg R?

I see their island and isolated area distributions as evidence of expansions rather than retreats. The I2a-Din expansion is very young... think 1st millenium CE, with the Slavs playing no small part. The I2a-M26 expansion on Sardinia is older, but there are plenty of ancient Sardinian cultures that could be candidates for an expansive introduction of I2a-M26. I'm less familiar with E-V13, but much of its modern distribution is usually attributed to a relatively recent expansion.
 
I still wonder,

why we do not observe also the diversities,
where I2a2 Din has diversities?
and
where E-V13 has diversities,
and how many years-generations are needed to give a Y-Hg a diverse?

does Dinaric Alp have same diversity with areas of I2?
 
I still wonder,

why we do not observe also the diversities,
where I2a2 Din has diversities?
and
where E-V13 has diversities,
and how many years-generations are needed to give a Y-Hg a diverse?

does Dinaric Alp have same diversity with areas of I2?
According to Nordvedt highest diversity of I2a1b is near today Moldova.
Highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia&Herzegovina according to Steven Bird.
 
I've seen stronger. In Southeastern Europe, Greece+Albania continue to have high E-V13 while I2a peters off a bit, and the reverse is true as we head toward Bosnia. E-V13 has a solid presence in Sicily that I2a doesn't share so much; the reverse is true for Sardinia. Both I2a and E-V13 have interesting presences in Spain, but their primary geographic distribution is in opposite regions (East for I2a, West for E-V13). So I think E-V13 and I2a owe their current distributions to different expansions on nearby regions, but I don't see an indication of a particularly ancient expansion together.



I see their island and isolated area distributions as evidence of expansions rather than retreats. The I2a-Din expansion is very young... think 1st millenium CE, with the Slavs playing no small part. The I2a-M26 expansion on Sardinia is older, but there are plenty of ancient Sardinian cultures that could be candidates for an expansive introduction of I2a-M26. I'm less familiar with E-V13, but much of its modern distribution is usually attributed to a relatively recent expansion.

Sparkey, yes I agree that both distributions now indicate expansion--I was referring to what would have been an earlier retreat away from hg R and then a later come back.

But if is I2a expansion is very young and E-V13 is of relatively recent expansion-- wouldn't these two branches be canidates for Sea Peoples? Both appear to have "landed" on the Aegean coast according to the maps. And when we have each group showing up individually or together in Greece, Albania, Sicily, Sardinia, and Spain... that also looks sea-faring.
 
Sparkey, yes I agree that both distributions now indicate expansion--I was referring to what would have been an earlier retreat away from hg R and then a later come back.

I see that you're trying to pair I2a and E v-13; you're on the right track that there should be pairs of I and E retreating from R, but a more fitting pair might be I1 and E v-13. (hint: their densities both peak in kosovo)
 
I'll check it out Kamani... I had I1 avoiding hg R in the Bothian Sea either in the Turku archipelago or the Aland Islands. I didn't even know there was much I1 in Kosovo.
 
I didn't even know there was much I1 in Kosovo.
There is about 5-6% [Pericic et al]. Which is a percentage that make sense, since I1 is paleolithic in europe. I have a hunch you also might find out I1 has been avoiding I2a in this area.
 
we need precise study about the I1 SNPs there: I think better Y-I1 is a "stranger" in southern Europe and that its presence in SE Europe is due to east germanic tribes (Goths and Cy) for the most - the Kosovo 6% Y-I1 checks very well the 10% of Makedonia ("slavic"):
I think too Y-I2a1 and E1b-V13 are concurrents and not friends in Mediterranea area - concerning Sea People (a medley?) I don't forget that first neolithical people was seas runners too -
 
we need precise study about the I1 SNPs there: I think better Y-I1 is a "stranger" in southern Europe and that its presence in SE Europe is due to east germanic tribes (Goths and Cy) for the most - the Kosovo 6% Y-I1 checks very well the 10% of Makedonia ("slavic"):
I think too Y-I2a1 and E1b-V13 are concurrents and not friends in Mediterranea area - concerning Sea People (a medley?) I don't forget that first neolithical people was seas runners too -
I agree that I1 there is probably due to Germanic tribes but i wonder where do you get the 10% I1 for Macedonia?

F2.large.jpg
 
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.
100,000 Polish immigrants from Krakow area identified themselves as Bielo-Chorbati(White Croats) when they came to USA.
 
I agree that I1 there is probably due to Germanic tribes but i wonder where do you get the 10% I1 for Macedonia?

F2.large.jpg

sorry for late answer: I have to look for my (unequal) sources concerning Y-I1 - maybe Maciamo, but I'm not sure (answer later)
thanks for communication
 
100,000 Polish immigrants from Krakow area identified themselves as Bielo-Chorbati(White Croats) when they came to USA.

As I know, not 100000 but quite a large number. The problem is that we don't have any material sources which could explain this fact. It is the perion of early XX century and we don't have written documents from that period and before which will show that White Croats lived there in that period of time. Quite a strange thing.
 
100,000 Polish immigrants from Krakow area identified themselves as Bielo-Chorbati(White Croats) when they came to USA.

As I know, not 100000 but quite a large number. The problem is that we don't have any material sources which could explain this fact. It is the perion of early XX century and we don't have written documents from that period and before which will show that White Croats lived there in that period of time. Quite a strange thing.

According to this article there are two independent of each other stories of White Chorvats.
Use the translate button.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biała_Chorwacja


One story are some surviving records, around 10th century, about White Chorvats tribe living in Krakow area in Poland. Unfortunately nothing really precise, with some conflicting records. Over all most likely some truth in it.

One important record tells us that Krakow area belong to catholic district of Praga in Bohemia. This is important, because this document was used by Austro-Hungarian Empire to justify acquisition of Polish lands during the end of 18th century. And to be consistent with their justification, they called polish nationals of acquired lands White Chorvats.
Now, when it happened that these guys emigrated to USA and they showed Austro-Hungarian documents of citizenship, it's said White Chorvats as ethnicity, and not Polish. And this is what was written in american emigration records, confusion people today a lot.

From about 12th to 19th century there are no polish records about White Chorvats living in this area. This land is only known as Poland Minor, or Land of Wislans (from Vistula river). They've spontaneously reappeared during Austro-Hungarian occupation of Poland. This is mistaken identity or mis-labeling case more than anything else.
 
I've expected something like that. Some political dirty games because there were not any White Croats in the region of southern Poland in the XIX century. Probably, they existed in the VII or VIII century but it was very suspicious for the beginning of 20th.

I checked your Wiki link and when I came on Croatian page of this topic I was shocked with this map:
Velika_Bijela_Hrvatska_9_st.jpg

OMG... this is simply crazy! :petrified:
Great Croatia in the 9th century... ))))
 
Actually, Croatia and Bosnia have the highest diversity of I2a2 STR's. I don't think it is because I2a2 originated in this confined part of Europe. Paleolithic people were mobile hunter-gatherers and would have roamed over vast expanses of land. It's more likely that the current diversity was caused by another group of I2a2 joining the indigenous one.
If I am right then the I2a2 found in regions with more R1a1a should be more similar to that found in Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland than to the native Dinaric I2a2.
The Samartians were not Slavic but Turkic speakers. They are closely related to the Scythians (in fact seen as a western branch of the Scythians) and originated in Central Asia, probably as the descendants of the Indo-Iranians who were later conquered by the original Turkic speakers from Mongolia in the late Antiquity.
The Bulgars were not Slavic either, but Turkic. Modern Bulgarian language is not related (except for a few loan words) to the language of the Bulgarian invaders. No more than French was the language of the Franks...
It is interesting to see how Indo-Iranian speakers in Central Asia became Turkic speakers, but those who moved into Europe converted back to an Indo-European language, Slavic, which is quite closely related to Indo-Iranian. Both Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages are strongly associated with R1a1a people. You can read more about this in my article Turkic speakers and R1a.

Maciamo; are you sure that Sarmatians was turkic speakers? from where did you get this statement? (I am neither for nor against, but I thought they were considered I-E iranic sepakers by the most of the "scientific community" ??? thanks beforehand - I know this question made debate
 
According to mean ancient Bulgarian tribes were Iranic originally from Kurdistan. Those NOMADIC Aryan tribes left the Iranian palteau and went to the steppes and Central Asia.

There is lots of Y-DNA hg. J2a in Bulgaria, Ukraine etc. Also Zoroastrianism (/Magianism) and more preciselyZurvanism connects Bulgaria with Kurdistan.

Biggest Bulgarian feast nowadays is SURVA. Surva is derived form an Kurdish Aryan (Magian) God Zurvan. Zurvan is relaed to a Sanscrit word for sun god - SURYA.

Zurvan is the supreme GOD of Time, Space, Life etc. and he is the father of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.

Before Islamisation Kurds were the 'SUN' and 'fire' worshippers. There's still a native Kurdish religion called the Yezidisme where the SUN symbolises the supreme being (GOD). I'm anYezidi Kurd by myself.
Zoroastrianismwas an official religion of the Medes and Magi (who prophesied the birth of Jesus Christ according to the Bible) were Iranic Kurds from Kurdistan.


http://ianf.hyperboards.com/action/view_topic/topic_id/841

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism
 
Eldritch said:
"In Kosovo, especially in its eastern part, most Albanians were gradually assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox faith by numerous methods, including the baptism of infants with Serbian names and the conducting of all religious ceremonies such as marriages in the Serbian language. In Montenegro entire tribes such as the Kuc, Bjellopavliq, Palabardha, Piprraj and Vasovic were assimilated; those who resisted assimilation retreated into the hills of what is now northern Albania"

They were Christians long before that. They were islamized gradually in the last 600 years. In fact there is a large number of Albanian Christians now days. Those are the ones that never turned to Islam. The same applies to Serbs, the difference is only that there is an islamic majority amongst Albanians, while Christianity prevails among Serbian population.

Eldritch said:
Highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia&Herzegovina according to Steven Bird.
Where did you get this from?
 
I came across something interesting:

EU7
Croats 44,8%
Lapps (Saami): 41,7%
Germans: 37,5%

EU19
Hungarians 60%
Poles 56%
Ukrainians 54%
Croats: 29%


Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup (Eu7 or I) is the most frequent in West Balkans (to 73% in Dalmatia and Herzegovina), reaching across Germany northwards to Scandinavia (48 %) and eastwards to Caucasus (58 %), Kurdistan and Teheran (to 34%). It includes 4 similar regional subtypes. The Germanic-Dinaric haplogroup is divisible into the Germanic haplogroup (I1), which is most common in Scandinavia, and the Dinaric haplogroup (I2), which is most common in the West Balkans.


.....21 Horithi, Horiti, C.'— Horigti, L. A Slavonic race, placed by Alfred the Great to the east of the Slavi Dalamenti, who occupied the district north-east of Moravia...... See note 23. R. T. Hampson,. Notes and Qrs, No 17,. p. 258.— S. W. Singer says,— The Horiti of Alfred are undoubtedly the Croati, or Crowati of Pomerania, who still pronounce their name Horuati, the h supplying the place of ch. Nor does it seem unreasonable to presume that the Harudes of Csesar (De Bel. Gall. I, 31, 37, 51) were also Croats; for they must have been a numerous and widely spread race. They are also called Charudes, *ApovO€^, The following passage from the Annales Fuldenses, A. 852, will strengthen this supposition ; — '' Inde transiens per Angros, Harudos,. Suabos, et Hosingos • . .. Thuxdngiam ingreditur." Notes and Qrs, No 20, p. 314


This would mean that the Harudes (Χαροῦδες) were in all likelihood a Slavic-Gothic alliance, which would account for their large numbers and highly regarded standing and privileged position. This root name is the genesis of the emerging 'Hrvati' ethnonym and people down to this day. (As seen it also had a part to play in topography, names and place names elsewhere, even the very Carpathians mountains...[Horvatya/Harvathi/Harvaða in the later Gothic epics] This again would partly explain and emphasize the truth of the descriptions of Croats being called Goths as well as Slavs in later Roman and Byzantine accounts also.


From the Polish territories called Lingonia seven or eight tribal clans arrived under Totilo. When they saw that the Croatian land would be suitable for habitation because in it there were few Roman colonies, they sought and obtained for their duke...The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia..... (Historia Salonitana)


According to the etymologist, E. Forstemann, the Gothic root "Hroth!" had various forms such as Hruad, Hruat, Hroad, Hruot, and Chrout. During the time of 10th century Croatian King Stephen Držislav there is a Royal Inscription which in Latin reads "Dux Hroator" - "Duke of the Croats".

Prof. V. Giuffrida Ruggeri at the Anthropological Institute in Naples also offered the claim that long ago the original Croats of Europe were not Slavs, but rather Goths/Germanic who were then Slavicized

"The Saga of Hervör and Heithrek (Translated by Nora Kershaw in 1921)....notice the names..".....By her he had twelve sons. The eldest was Angantyr, then Hervarth, thenHjörvarth, Sæming and Hrani, Brami, Barri, Reifnir, Tind and Bui.......... "This pike at the mouth of the river, Has paid the penalty, For the slaughter inflicted on Heithrek, "Neath the Mountains of Harvathi....."
 
High percentage of Hg I in todays inhabitants of Croatia is purely coincidental. Gothic Hg I is totally different of what is found in todays Croatia and those split up many thousands years ago. Original Croats were probably R1a people that came from territories between todays Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia.


Poland_under_Boleslaw_Chrobry.jpg



Even their coat of arms suggests strong connection with those areas (from left to right: Moravian, Croatian)

491px-Moravia.svg.png306px-Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Banate_of_Croatia.svg.png

Until we get more info, this theory is most probable.
 
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High percentage of Hg I in todays inhabitants of Croatia is purely coincidental. Gothic Hg I is totally different of what is found in todays Croatia and those split up many thousands years ago. Original Croats were probably R1a people that came from territories between todays Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia.

Even their coat of arms suggests strong connection with those areas (from left to right: Moravian, Croatian

Well it is quite clear Croats dwelled around Moravia. But you still haven't addressed the EU7 haplotype data which suggests they are closer to Saamis and Germans than to Slavs. It's especially interesting to note how Serbia or any neighbouring Slav countries isn't even close when it comes to EU7.
 

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