Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

[Issachar]

Haplogroup I2, I2a and I2a2 are very common among Kurdish people in North Iraq (Kurdistan) 17 % and Turkey (Kurdistan) 20%. This haplogroup most likely originated in Middle East.

 

[sparkey]

Haplogroup I2, I2a and I2a2 are very common among Kurdish people in North Iraq (Kurdistan) 17 % and Turkey (Kurdistan) 20%.

There are indications that I2 is unexpectedly high among Kurds, but we don't really understand yet which subclades. I2a2a (old I2b1) has been found in a Kurd, as has I1 and maybe I2c. Otherwise, no studies have confirmed subclades. All of these have good evidence that they originated in Europe, and since the I2a2a Kurd is P78-, that indicates that they all came from Central Europe, at least those that we have found so far.

But so far we haven't found in any Kurds the I2a1b (old I2a2) that's being discussed in this thread. It has been found in an Iraqi Arab, but it's the non-Eastern European I2a1b2-Isles type, not I2a1b1a-Dinaric that's present in the Balkans.

This haplogroup most likely originated in Middle East.

No, it most likely originated in Europe. At least, that's where the highest diversity of every subclade discovered so far is. And it's highest in Central and Western Europe to boot. See my Paleolithic Remnants map for a visualization of that.

 

[Issachar]

No, it most likely originated in Europe. At least, that's where the highest diversity of every subclade discovered so far is. And it's highest in Central and Western Europe to boot.

My assumption based on IJ haplogroup ( Proto-semitic ? ) as you know haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia and Southwest Asia and IJ is still exists but it is very rare

 

[sparkey]

IJ haplogroup ( Proto-semitic ? )

There's no serious doubt that the IJ haplogroup predates the proto-Semitic language. A typical guess for when proto-Semitic existed is about 4000 BCE IIRC. But IJ is probably over 35,000 years old.

The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia and Southwest Asia and IJ is still exists but it is very rare

It's a good assumption that IJ originated in Asia, probably the Near East, considering that one of its children (I) apparently originated in Europe, and the other (J) apparently originated in the Near East. And since we know that the movement of people has been from the Near East into Europe, it's a good assumption that the Near East was the origin of the whole.

Haplogroup I in Asia, although present, has not yet been shown to be ancient there. I2c-B is quite common among Armenians, for example, but it's a very young subclade with origins around the Rhine, consistent with the fact that Haplogroup I appears to be most ancient in Europe.

And there's no indication that undifferentiated IJ still exists, I don't know why you suggest that.

 

[Issachar]

oldest I*-M170 shows clear I haplogroup was generated in Middle east

Unfortunately I can not place a link

I*-M170 (oldest)
The composite subclade I contains individuals directly descended from the earliest members of Haplogroup I, bearing none of the subsequent mutations which identify the remaining named subclades.
Several haplogroup I-M170 individuals who do not fall in known subclades, with some of the greatest Y-STR diversity, have significantly been found among the populations of Turkey (8/741) Adygea (2/138), and Iraq (1/176),even though as a whole Haplogroup I-M170 occurs at only very low frequencies among modern populations of the Middle East and Caucasus. This is consistent with the belief that the haplogroup first appeared in that region. Overall, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I-M170 appear to be found among the Andalusians (3/103 )French (4/179),Slovanians (2/55), Tabassarans (1/30) and the Saami (1/35). The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21), although only 21 Laks were tested.

 

[sparkey]

Unfortunately I can not place a link

I*-M170 (oldest)
The composite subclade I contains individuals directly descended from the earliest members of Haplogroup I, bearing none of the subsequent mutations which identify the remaining named subclades.
Several haplogroup I-M170 individuals who do not fall in known subclades, with some of the greatest Y-STR diversity, have significantly been found among the populations of Turkey (8/741) Adygea (2/138), and Iraq (1/176),even though as a whole Haplogroup I-M170 occurs at only very low frequencies among modern populations of the Middle East and Caucasus. This is consistent with the belief that the haplogroup first appeared in that region. Overall, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I-M170 appear to be found among the Andalusians (3/103 )French (4/179),Slovanians (2/55), Tabassarans (1/30) and the Saami (1/35). The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21), although only 21 Laks were tested.

I can place a link. It's from Wikipedia. And it's basically wrong. The links it gives are to studies that did not test for I2a2b, I2b, or I2c SNPs, which are probably the subclades that are popping up as "I*." The claim to "some of the greatest Y-STR diversity" seems to be made up, as the cited studies only tested SNPs from what I can tell. Both Nordtvedt and ISOGG confirm that true I* is unobserved. As I've already said, the greatest STR diversity for every subclade of I that has been found in Asia so far is in Europe.

 

[Montenegro]

Hallo from Montenegro!
Montenegrins, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians obviously has the same DNA.Than, we are the same people, or nation, whatever.Plus, we have the same language, with some variations less than 5%. DNA is in blood, and blood is not water and doesnt lying. However, I respect ethnic diversity, but I belive thats emotional condition of consence of every individuals, only. There is many proofs of our common ethnicity - The South Slavs.And that I will contribute in the future.So long!

 

[Malsori]

It is obvious to me that I2a2-Dinaric among South Slavs came with Slavic expansion.All of the I2a2 among South Slavs is from the I2a2-Dinaric kind which means a recent founder effect.Moreover the highest diversity seems to be inbetween Romania and Ukraine.

 

[Eldritch]

I'm calling it still I2a2, you call it I2a1b, we both know about which HG we are talking about, so... You wanna tell me that such a great amount of HG I2a2 was "transported" with Croats and Serbs from today Ukraine, all the way trough Poland to present day Croatia in this precentege of I2a2 as we have today in Croatia and Bosnia (highest in Europe)? How can that be possible? Were they traveling with Space ships? Because we are not talking about few days or years of migrations, but 4 and 5 centuries, we are talking here about 500 years of Croatian traveling from Today Ukraine, once Sarmatian lands, across Poland to Croatia...

I2a1b is brought from Slavs in present day Balkans.

 

[Eldritch]

Hallo from Montenegro!
Montenegrins, Serbs, Croats and Bosnians obviously has the same DNA.Than, we are the same people, or nation, whatever.Plus, we have the same language, with some variations less than 5%. DNA is in blood, and blood is not water and doesnt lying. However, I respect ethnic diversity, but I belive thats emotional condition of consence of every individuals, only. There is many proofs of our common ethnicity - The South Slavs.And that I will contribute in the future.So long!

Well i would exclude Montenegrins from the list you mentioned, they have too high E-V13.

 

[zanipolo]

Well i would exclude Montenegrins from the list you mentioned, they have too high E-V13.

history says that montegrians where originally serbians, since IMO serbians where originally thracians triballi tribe who became slavic after knowing the slavic tongue , then it makes sence that this central thracian people are E-V13

 

[Yetos]

history says that montegrians where originally serbians, since IMO serbians where originally thracians triballi tribe who became slavic after knowing the slavic tongue , then it makes sence that this central thracian people are E-V13

I don't think so

Montenegrins are a tribe of their own
Simply in Montenegro exist strong Serbian (better say wider Slavic) and Albanian component
Montenegrin are not considered Slavs or Albanians neither Thracians, but in Montengro settled a lot of Slavs (Serbs) and Albanians

 

[Eldritch]

I don't think so

Montenegrins are a tribe of their own
Simply in Montenegro exist strong Serbian (better say wider Slavic) and Albanian component
Montenegrin are not considered Slavs or Albanians neither Thracians, but in Montengro settled a lot of Slavs (Serbs) and Albanians

Indeed they're to a large degree Slavicized Albanians.

 

[Bodric]

Well, you are a Serb, aren't you? The fact that Serbs probably were named after their serving to Byzantium won't change anything today.

Intelligent argument u made there.

Do you speak any other slav tongue than your native "croat" ? (Croat being ikavian and not the serb stokavian u are speaking)

Ask a russian or slovak what serbyam /Serblyem means etc.

Do you know of slavic languages?

Knowledge of the polabian slavic fiefdoms?

Niklot of the Obotrites (Bodrici) ?

Do you know anything about something ?

 

[Bodric]

Indeed they're to a large degree Slavicized Albanians.

How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know that the Montenegrins to a large degree slavicized vlachs? Vlachs that came to the region in the 9-10th century.

Deriving the mountain laws that the highland clans (serb and albanian) use today? Kanun / Katun are vlach words derived from latin.

Some people just want to watch the world burn by their ignorances.... Your probablt albanian anyhow. I've noticed most albanians are very keen in subverting facts to suit them.

Well 60 years of Hoxha made you guys forget about being self-critical

 

[kamani]

I don't have any online sources for this, but I remember reading some folk stories about a mythical albanian noble named Muji who was always battling or forming alliances with the the Krajl of Kotor (Montenegro). The location of Muji is not precise because on some of the songs his home is in Bjeshket e Namuna (North Albanian alps), in other songs is in Jutbina (Udbina, Kroatia). These songs were transmitted through the village bards and were not written until 20-th century. Geographically Muji (North-albanian alps) would be the closest highlander to someone living in Kotor.

 

[Eldritch]

How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know that the Montenegrins to a large degree slavicized vlachs? Vlachs that came to the region in the 9-10th century.

Deriving the mountain laws that the highland clans (serb and albanian) use today? Kanun / Katun are vlach words derived from latin.

Some people just want to watch the world burn by their ignorances.... Your probablt albanian anyhow. I've noticed most albanians are very keen in subverting facts to suit them.

Well 60 years of Hoxha made you guys forget about being self-critical

"Mountains of Giants: A Racial and Cultural Study of the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs - Carleton S Coon, p. 7"

"In Kosovo, especially in its eastern part, most Albanians were gradually assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox faith by numerous methods, including the baptism of infants with Serbian names and the conducting of all religious ceremonies such as marriages in the Serbian language. In Montenegro entire tribes such as the Kuc, Bjellopavliq, Palabardha, Piprraj and Vasovic were assimilated; those who resisted assimilation retreated into the hills of what is now northern Albania"

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html?_r=2

 

[Malsori]

How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know that the Montenegrins to a large degree slavicized vlachs? Vlachs that came to the region in the 9-10th century.

Deriving the mountain laws that the highland clans (serb and albanian) use today? Kanun / Katun are vlach words derived from latin.

Some people just want to watch the world burn by their ignorances.... Your probablt albanian anyhow. I've noticed most albanians are very keen in subverting facts to suit them.

Well 60 years of Hoxha made you guys forget about being self-critical

You are right, he is probably an Albanian t r o l l acting as Finn to appear as more objective. He is quite pathetic. But, he is right to some degree. Montenegrins have absorbed some Gheg Albanians. That cannot be declined.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Really informative thread. Has anyone noticed that I2a and E-V13 have very similiar distribution patterns? Please check the maps for verification.

What if both used the off shore islands to escape/avoid the incoming waves of horse-riding hg R?

 

[zanipolo]

"Mountains of Giants: A Racial and Cultural Study of the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs - Carleton S Coon, p. 7"




http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/v/vickers-serb.html?_r=2

thanks, are'nt these ghegs "tribes" actually family names of the ghegs?

your link agrees with the book Moesia and Pannonia which I recently placed in another thread.

- Since kosovo have more E than Albania and there is much less E in the northern balkans, the consensus is that dardanians, being ancient kosovo people are a branch of thracians or completly seperated , they do have some paeonian influences. Kosovo ( ancient dardanian lands ) was victim to continous wars against macedonians, illyrians and dacians