Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

[razor]

I see you prefer theology to science. No problem. De gustibus non est disputandum. Live long and prosper =)))

 

[Dale Cooper]

I see you prefer theology to science. No problem. De gustibus non est disputandum. Live long and prosper =)))

I prefer Science but also I belive in a God, when it comes about theology in some terms of some particular religious... well, I'm Christian only on paper, so no.. I do not support theology, not christian or any else

In last 2000 years, religions made more chaos than any other human instrument or ideology... just take a look on example of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia 20 years ago, you still have here some users (I will not name it) who are writing some "genetical" theories about their nation with nationalist and religious interests, and that is a shame, but... hey... unfortunately we are living in that kind of world, expecially that's true for south-east Europe, here, european medieval state of mind is still current subject of discussion.

I didn't came on this forum as Croat even though I am Croat, I came here as a person who want to discuss about genetic in correlation with some historic migrations of some particular people or ethnos, I didn't came here to start a competition "who piss further" (sorry for this expression), even though some of users here like to do that (not you, but I will not name them, there is no need).

 

[zanipolo]

I'm calling it still I2a2, you call it I2a1b, we both know about which HG we are talking about, so... You wanna tell me that such a great amount of HG I2a2 was "transported" with Croats and Serbs from today Ukraine, all the way trough Poland to present day Croatia in this precentege of I2a2 as we have today in Croatia and Bosnia (highest in Europe)? How can that be possible? Were they traveling with Space ships? Because we are not talking about few days or years of migrations, but 4 and 5 centuries, we are talking here about 500 years of Croatian traveling from Today Ukraine, once Sarmatian lands, across Poland to Croatia...

Croats as also Serbs, brought with them only one HG... and that is R1a, that was a dominant HG of Croats and Serbs who orginally came to present day area of Cro and Ser... that's a logical conclusion, I2a2 was adopted from autohtone people of this area, I'm not speaking about "Illyrians" but about pre-croatian and pre-serbian people of this are with who croats made a contact after they came here to Croatia...

Term Illyrian is a twisted term, that's way I've said that I'm not talking about Romanized Illyrians.

pre-croation ?? was romanized illyrians
pre them was celtic- illyrians
pre them was illyrians
its simple all the world knows them as illyrians , all the ancient historians know them as illyrians. let us not confuse this issue

 

[Dale Cooper]

pre-croation ?? was romanized illyrians
pre them was celtic- illyrians
pre them was illyrians
its simple all the world knows them as illyrians , all the ancient historians know them as illyrians. let us not confuse this issue

Oh really... and can you explain to me why are they Illyrians? I mean those tribes who lived on present day Croatia, I will tell you, they were "Illyrians" only because they were intergrated into roman province Illyricum, and you know how would romans give to some large area a name when they conqured it? Well, they sure didn't pay attention are all tribes in that "Province" same as the name of the province, anyway, for your information, there is a large debate about tribes northern from today Montenegro in pre-roman times, were they Illyrians or were they ethnic tribes with different genetical and language background from those Illyrians on area of present day Albania and Montenegro.

For example, today Albanians say for themselfs that they are decendets of Illyrians, and when you take a look on genetical map of southeast Europe, you will see the large (highest) proportion of I2a2 haplogroup present in area of today Croatia (45%), Bosnia (50%) and Serbia (35%), and take a look how many percentage of this I2a2 HG (which is autohtone HG for this area) have Albanians? Albanians have it beneath 10%... so... how can that be? can you explain to me that? You cant, you know why? Because Illyrians as you see them, were not homogeneus people, and there is genetical and cultural difference between autohtone people of present day Croatia in pre-roman times, and those from Epirus in today Albania...

Saying this, I don't want to denie Albanian Illyrian heritage, I'm just saying you should make a difference between Illyrians in Epirus and today Montenegro, and those autohtone people of present day Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia...Because those autohtone people of present day croatia, bosnia and serbia were ethno-cultural mix of Illyrian, Celtic and Panonian influence, and yes, there were a tribes with term: Pannonic or Pannonians.

 

[hawklutz]

Now that I think about possible connections between I2a2 and Scythians, the first thing which enters my head is Chernoles culture - the Scythian ploughmen. Ethnically and anthropologically these were different from Scythian warriors - the ruling elite class, which resided in the Pontic steppe and were the migrants from the east. The high figures of I2a2 in Moldova should be attributed to the Slavic tribes of Ulychs and Tyverts who came from the north (Western Ukraine).
I also support the hypothesis of Verenich that I2a2 is the result of Medieval slavic migrations from the territory of Western Ukraine.

 

[Bodin]

Actually no, the oldest known coats of arms (and flag) representing Croatia was different. It was, to cite from Croatian wikipedia page of "Coat of arms of Croatia" ( where you can see the two pictures ) translated "According to medieval coins that were in use on the Croatian territory, it seems that at least of 12 Century (1196) Croatian coat of arms was a [yellow or golden] six-pointed morning star (or Danica - actually planet Venera) above a [white or silver] crescent moon." [on a red flag] "...These elements of the arms are included in many Croatian noblemen [dunno who] and city coat of arms (eg coat of arms of Gradec and Zagreb (capital of Croatia), at least since the 14th century, the coat of arms of Varaždin at least since the 15th century)..."

As for noblemen families Frankopan family used this CoA until 1430 year.

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Stari_grb_Frankopana_(do_1430).JPG

" The Frankopan family ranked next to the Zrinski family in importance by virtue of their power, wealth, fame, glory and role in Croatia's public life. They were so called only by the first half of the fifteenth century because of their affinity with the Roman patrician Frangipani family. However, they were mentioned in the year 1133 (with Dujam being the first recorded name of the Frankopans) as rulers and lords of the island of Krk and part of the littoral. " Were Frankopan family a nobility with Croatian gene lines?

"Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people..."

Indeed, can this "oldest known Croatian CoA/Flag" somehow be connected with what how yes no wrote in his post

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...-and-their-DNA&p=377703&viewfull=1#post377703

To cite:

" Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...

Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english

Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....


The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

thus, Seri = day
Zorya = dawn
Sera = Dera = fleece..
Seri = day and bull



The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....


Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these

this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....

land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...

Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart



interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


Zorya is also associated with moon


Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya



13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

thus,
Dera = Sera = fleece
Zorya = dawn
dan = day
Seri = day and bull
Sar = moon

Sar+dan = moon+day

moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")

The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...

isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...

isn't it same motive as celtic cross?

Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart "

Is this picture representing veritable the Sarmatians?

Can we connect Croatian "oldest CoA" and "sahovnica" with coat of arms of Polish nobility?:

http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/archives/RTP/Polish1.html

Did Croats, Serbs, (or Sea people) influenced the Coat of Arms of the:

Czech Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Czech_Republic

Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria

Romania [ note the bull ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania

as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_heraldry with Wallachia CoA

Look at the Caucasian Avars flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars

Is the crescent moon heritage of Avars in Croatia?

Crescent moon and six pointed star is Illyrian coat of arms , not Croatian . Yes Poland and Chezch coat of arms are both related to Croatian - that are the places where White Croats lived .Everything else is only asumptions based on linguistic similarity

 

[Bodin]

Actually this whole notion of the I2a-Din clade as peculiarly associated with the Sarmatians is rather fanciful (and not only because we don't actually have any aDNA to back it up). It's being asserted repeatedly by posters who would like the (or some of the) South Slavs to be "Sarmatians", largely on the basis of what they understand from snippets in Diodorus Siculus and Pliny... Diodorus' notion of an early "Sarmatian" destruction of "Scythia" has recently been devastated by archaeologists (Browse through the online literature at www.pontos.dk) so much so that one must ask oneself what this author could have meant by this ca. 50 BCE when the text first appeared... Perhaps he was thinking of the lambasting of Bastarnia by the Yazigi and Roxolan allies of Burebista in the years following the collapse of Mithradatus' enterprise. This was about the time of the birth of the MCRA of Din-S acc. to Ken Nordvedt's computations. The association of Pliny's Caucasus "Sarmatian" tribal units with the areas south of the Danube hardly predates Avar times. The Slavs they led were largely Din-N and S. But the thin aristocratic groups which gave the new peoples their current names may not have shared this anyway (we don't know and probably never shall).

This is not truth first : many other sources not only Diodorus telling about Saramathian conquest of Scythia second : Emperor Constantine settled 500.000 Sarmathian Yazigi on Balkans and that is south of Danube and before Avars

 

[Bodin]

Now that I think about possible connections between I2a2 and Scythians, the first thing which enters my head is Chernoles culture - the Scythian ploughmen. Ethnically and anthropologically these were different from Scythian warriors - the ruling elite class, which resided in the Pontic steppe and were the migrants from the east. The high figures of I2a2 in Moldova should be attributed to the Slavic tribes of Ulychs and Tyverts who came from the north (Western Ukraine).
I also support the hypothesis of Verenich that I2a2 is the result of Medieval slavic migrations from the territory of Western Ukraine.

I2a1b in Ukraine and Moldova are from Antes and Rusini ( Boiki ) and white Croats that settled there in VII century

 

[razor]

What sources other than Diodorus pray tell?
Constantine is reputed to have settled 300,000 Sarmatian "Argagarantes" (also called "masters" by Ammianus), and not just in the Balkans but also in Italy. But we don't see much I2a1b1 in Italy. The Roman empire absorbed these new arrivals just as easily as it had absorbed the Bastarnians and the Carpi. The plague of Justinian also decimated these older populations. Then the Slavs arrived en masse.

 

[Bodin]

What sources other than Diodorus pray tell?
Constantine is reputed to have settled 300,000 Sarmatian "Argagarantes" (also called "masters" by Ammianus), and not just in the Balkans but also in Italy. But we don't see much I2a1b1 in Italy. The Roman empire absorbed these new arrivals just as easily as it had absorbed the Bastarnians and the Carpi. The plague of Justinian also decimated these older populations. Then the Slavs arrived en masse.

For instance Tacitus , ...
Argaragantes were real Sarmathians , Limigantes were they "slaves " - subdued nations mainly composed of Dacians and Scythians - Slavs among others . This is first time I hier Constantine settled them in Italy , he settled them only in Thracia - no Barbarian nation had ever been settled in Italy - they needed them to protect borders - and there is no borders in Italy , and they wanted them away from capitol city - Rome .
Who say Slavs arrived in masses - there is only few Slavic tribes that entered Balkans and mainly in Thracia , Thesalonici aeria and two in Peloponesus ( Milingi could be Serbian tribe , so maybe only one Slavic tribe - Jezerites ) . We dont even know how and when do they get in - no source speack about that , we could only guess they entered betwen Fokas rebelion and first attack on Thessaloniki . We also dont know how many of them was there - so it is realy bold to say masses

 

[Bodin]

Serbs and Croats entered Balkans separately from Slavs after 626 and was called by emperor Herakleos -Croats : to protect Dalmatia from Avars ( so Avars was in Dalmatia , not Slavs ) and Serbs : to protect Thessaloniki from Slavs , only they didnt like it there and moved to Dalmatia next to Croats .

 

[razor]

For instance Tacitus , ...
Argaragantes were real Sarmathians , Limigantes were they "slaves " - subdued nations mainly composed of Dacians and Scythians - Slavs among others . This is first time I hier Constantine settled them in Italy , he settled them only in Thracia - no Barbarian nation had ever been settled in Italy - they needed them to protect borders - and there is no borders in Italy , and they wanted them away from capitol city - Rome .
Who say Slavs arrived in masses - there is only few Slavic tribes that entered Balkans and mainly in Thracia , Thesalonici aeria and two in Peloponesus ( Milingi could be Serbian tribe , so maybe only one Slavic tribe - Jezerites ) . We dont even know how and when do they get in - no source speack about that , we could only guess they entered betwen Fokas rebelion and first attack on Thessaloniki . We also dont know how many of them was there - so it is realy bold to say masses

Tacitus wrote nothing about the conquest of Scythia by the Sarmatians.
And it's too bad you didn't read the Origo Constantinis imperatoris (with details of the settlement of Sarmatian refugees in Italy)
Generally speaking you seem to need a lot of refresher courses =))
I advise you to start with some of the recent articles available in www.pontos.dk to which I earlier referred you.

 

[Bodin]

Maybe you should read Tacitus once more he say Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them .
I didnt read Origo Constantinus Imperatoris so you would have to help me : where in Italy did they were settled ? How many of them ? Because I know 500.000 was settled in Thracia .
Which article ? If you talk about one about burial customs he refers at time period betwen 500-200 BC and in that time Sarmathians werent there . There is clear difference betwen Sarmathians and Scythians - Sarmathians had woman wariors and burried them , Scythians havent , ofcourse there is lot of simmilarities .

 

[razor]

Maybe you should read Tacitus once more he say Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them .
I didnt read Origo Constantinus Imperatoris so you would have to help me : where in Italy did they were settled ? How many of them ? Because I know 500.000 was settled in Thracia .
Which article ? If you talk about one about burial customs he refers at time period betwen 500-200 BC and in that time Sarmathians werent there . There is clear difference betwen Sarmathians and Scythians - Sarmathians had woman wariors and burried them , Scythians havent , ofcourse there is lot of simmilarities .

1) Where does Tacitus write that "Sarmathians live in land that previosly belonged to Scythians that they taken from them "? Reference please.
2) Here is an English translation of the OIC (=Anonymus Valesianus, composed around 390 CE):
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/Constantine/Origo.html
"When peace with the Goths had thus been secured, Constantine turned against the Sarmatians, who were showing themselves to be of doubtful loyalty. But the slaves of the Sarmatians rebelled against all their masters and drove them from the country. These Constantine willingly received, and distributed more than three hundred thousand people of different ages and both sexes through Thrace, Scythia, Macedonia, and Italy."
So it's not 500,000, but 300,000 "of different ages and both sexes". To make things simpler, say 1/2:1/2 male-female (arbitrary). Of the 150,000 males (we know from another source) some (the warriors) were directly incorporated into the Roman cavalry. Others were settled on the land. Four distinct areas: By "Scythia" here is meant the Dobrudja south of the Danube. Divide by four (we have no reason not to): that makes 37,500 each for the four areas. And so the question: where is the Italian I2a-Din? Of course since in my view there was no I2a-Din among these anywhere, it's no surprise there wasn't any in Italy.
3) One of the Pontos articles demonstrates that classical Scythia was depopulated between ca. 300 BCE and ca. 175 BCE. Archaeology knows of no Sarmatians there at that time (they stayed east of the Don). The first Sarmatians appear in the later 2nd c. BCE, as vassals of the Scythians. Then all that complex is conquered by Mithradates and his generals. After the death of Mithradates, there is a "war of all against all" there (including the newcomer Bastarnians). The Sarmatians (Yazigi and Roxolani) ally with Burebista's Getae and help Burebista to destroy Olbia plus a number of other Lower Dnipro Scythian cities. I think that is probably what Diodorus was writing about in the edition of his work which came out in 49 BCE. Historians have misunserstood the Scythian withdrawal to Central Asia in 300 BCE as a Sarmatian-prompted event. It was not.

 

[Yosepei]

Don'tbreak the interesting discussion with childish croat-nazi propaganda

1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.

JORO please, this was a very interesting thread until you came into saying nonsense things such as the serbs come from the slaves. In spanish CROAT is said CROATA which is similar to CROQUETA (the meal "croquette") but we are not so silly to infer that croatians come from croquettes.
I have reading theories on the origins of serbs and croats for months, from authors of many countries, and that theory you quote from De Administrando Imperio (that of the serbs name derive from the slave word) is that which every scholar rejects as absurd. There is so overwhelming scientific information about this matter, that I will not lose time arguing; you can search it easily. Please get you STUPIDITY RELATED TO YOUR CROAT PURE RACE out of this interesting forum.

 

[sparkey]

childish

nazi

you STUPIDITY

Infraction... not a good start, Yosepei. Try to adopt a more civil tone. Feel free to cite and quote from the sources that you say contradict Joro. That will be a lot more effective than your first post.

 

[zanipolo]

interesting parts - see nelow, pages 9. 10 , 11 and beyond
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...dardanian&hl=en#v=onepage&q=dardanian&f=false

Is the settlement of Bastanae in south west balkans, surely they bought R1a and some I2a into the balkans before the slavs did

 

[Diurpaneus]

In my opinion Eupedia's Haplogroup Description fits well with archaelogical data.
The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture had an heavy influence on ancient populations structure in Eastern Europe.
The settlements had up to 15,000 inhabitants(the largest in Neolithic Europe) and the density was impressive too.
So i can't imagine Dacian ethnogenesis without Cucuteni-Triplye people.The haplogroup that fits this description is I2a2.
The indoeuropeans carried this haplogroup to the North, South and West covering an area who will be known as the Thracian land.The eastern part of this culture is known(in Ucrainian and Southern Russian steppes) as Cimmerian homeland.Herodotus says that Cimmerians were Thracians ruled by a Scythian elite.According to Herodotus the Thracians (including Dacians) were second largest population after Indians,which is an exageration, but if you think of Cucuteni -Tripolye culture he had his reasons to say that.The Scithyans and later the Sarmatians lived in the vast steppes but there's low density there.Roman writers said that The Hunns and The Avars were quite a few(only a rulling elite).They came from these steppes as other Turkic populations.I think most of the Turks were in fact ethnic Scithyans/Sarmatians. They had many names not because they were in great number ,but Turkish elite changed. I don't know when Haplogroup Q spreaded to Baltic and Scandinavia , but i think Scithyans had much greater power in 7th century BC then any other Turkic tribe.
My opinion is that Tracians had more Neolithic genes J2 and E than I2a2.Cause genetic boundary are different from linguistic one.They had more R1a(Corded Ware,Northern Yamna) than R1b (Cernavoda -Ezero).The Dacians instead had much more I2a2 then E and J2, and R1a/R1b ratio would be 2:1 for R1a.The Getae were the same as Dacians in language(their placemanes ends with -dava too,and they had the same names as Dacians).The Getae lived in the southern Romanian plains and northern Bulgaria across the Danube.They match with Neolithic cultures with southern influences,and with Cernavoda-Ezero culture. They had more J2 and E than the Dacians, but mostly I2a2.As well had more R1b than the Dacians,but mostly R1a.

 

[sparkey]

In my opinion Eupedia's Haplogroup Description fits well with archaelogical data.
The Cucuteni-Tripolye culture had an heavy influence on ancient populations structure in Eastern Europe.
The settlements had up to 15,000 inhabitants(the largest in Neolithic Europe) and the density was impressive too.
So i can't imagine Dacian ethnogenesis without Cucuteni-Triplye people.The haplogroup that fits this description is I2a2.

I assume you mean old I2a2, current I2a1b (which includes I2a-Din). How specific are you willing to go in terms of subclades that you think Cucuteni-Tripolye had? Just I2a-Din (I2a1b1a)? Or also Disles? Also Isles?

Because if we go with just I2a-Din, it seems too young to me... Cucuteni-Tripolye culture ended before the TMRCA of I2a-Din, meaning we would need a large bottleneck of I2a-Din. It also seems that a culture with settlements as large as Cucuteni-Tripolye culture would then be a poor candidate to have carried a haplogroup, at least in significant numbers, that would later bottleneck so severely.

If you extend it to all of I2a1b1, including Disles, you have my attention. The TMRCA of that subclade as a whole could be dated within the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture, and there's enough temporal distance with it and I2a1b2 to explain the geographic disparity. But we still need a weird/unexpected bottleneck and migration pattern afterward.

IMHO Cucuteni-Tripolye culture is a candidate to have carried I2a1b as a minority, but little more, and I also suspect that modern I2a1b1 individuals are not descended patrilineally from individuals within Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (although I don't discount it entirely). I would look perhaps a bit farther west to find an archaeological culture that fits I2a1b1's distribution so long ago, as I2a1 as a whole is quite a western haplogroup... or would have been, back then.

 

[how yes no 2]

Sarmatians were probably R1a people without significant I2a-Din...


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27187-Sarmatians-in-Gaul&p=390602#post390602