E1b1b1 is indeed the Berber modal haplotype and does indeed originate from the horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen.
But this haplotype has spread all around the Mediterranean sea during the neolithic agricultural revolution. In fact it is the only Y haplotype fund all around the Mediterranean.
And the time of its' expansion the Berbers were not Berbers yet :grin:.
Please post the words that are similar in Berber and Albanian, I gonna show em to my Berber speaking friends (my Berber is quite poor because my Zenete ancestors have been thoroughly arabized).
actually, main distinction between Serbs and Croats is that Croats have significantly more R1a and Serbs significantly more E-V13....(btw. worth noting is that in same time according to Klyosov R1a in Serbs is ancient old, while the one in Croats seems to be much more recent one...)
so, proto-Serbs may have been E-V13 as well...
horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen was part of Sheba and later Sabaeans kingdoms, and those are
Serians who control the Red sea that
Seneca mentions...
let me explain this
[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html
Thus, Serians:
1) control Red sea
2) live in friendly relationship with Sarmatians in caspian mountains of Sarmatia Asiatica
3) live in Europe near Danube where they also rule over Scythians (Dacians in other translations)
4) live in arc of Serians that is big trade route spreading from northwest China (where Serians produce silk) to India
btw. worth nothing is that some Byzantine sources seems to refer to Serbs as to Sarbans, which identifies them to be related to Pashtun Sarbans (who are obviously key part of arc of Serians from north west China to India) and thus to Serians...
Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat.
Sērēs) was the ancient
Greek and
Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern
Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a
wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was
Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres
arc of Serians from north west China to India is clearly visible in spread of haplogroup I
and its key part clearly matches spread of Sarbans
Serboi tribe of Caspian highlands (also known as Serbi and Siraces) are the Serians of Seneca who live among Sarmatians in Caucasian highlands...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces
problem is that spread of haplogroups I and R1a does not fit Red sea settlement (kingdom of Sheba/Sabeans)... so Serians might have originally been E-V13
horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen was part of Sheba and later Sabaeans kingdoms, and those are Serians who control the Red sea that Seneca mentions... they might also be Sherdana sea peoples who attack Egypt, as Sherdana are related to toponym Serbonian bog (Serbonis/Sirbonis )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans
The name of the
Serbonian Bog (
Arabic: مستنقع سربون) applied to the lake of
Serbonis (
Sirbonis or
Serbon) in
Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a
bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as
Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "
Bitter Lakes" to the east of the
Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a
quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term
Serbonian came from the name of the
Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary
Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
important to notice is that Serbs might carry their tribal name after mythological queen of Sheba
as her name was known as Makeda in south parts of her kingdom (Ethiopia), which corresponds to Macedonians located south of Serbs, and ancient Macedonians south of Scordisci...
in same time she was known to Arabs as Balqis/Balkis which explains why in Arab influenced Ottoman empire whole area got name Balkan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba
here is possible scenario:
from kingdom of Sheba they could have travelled to Asia minor and Balkan and merged there with R1a...those would be Serians of Europe which are perhaps Scordisci who are neigbours to Dacians (Serians of Seneca rule over Dacians) and whose name yielded name for Sar mountain....
later I2a2 Veneti might have settled on Balkan and merged with proto-Serbs in east and central part of west Balkan giving Illyrians, and with other autochtonous people in west part of west Balkan giving Liburnians and Adriatic Veneti....
Scordisci are known to have area of influence roughly matching ones of Serbs - from Sar mountain on south (border of Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania) to Slovakia and Czech republic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci
Dardanians arrived from Troad area of Asia minor to Balkan unknown time after Veneti and settled area that is now Kosovo, north east Albania and west Macedonia...they were nomadic people who did not live in houses which made Greek historians write about them as barabarians... they were last wave of E-V13 to enter Balkan...
and in fact if you look at attempt to make clusters of people with recent common origin...
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png
among closest clusters to the one made of south Slavs, Romanians, central Ukrainians and west and east Hungarians, are in fact Albanians, Asia minor and northwest Africa (that is Berbers)
while e.g. Greeks, Bulgarians and Macedonians first cluster with Egypt and Syria and only than with cluster containing Serbia, Bosnia,Croatia, central Ukraine, Romania and east and west Hungary, Berbers and Albanians...
this indicates that Bulgarians and Macedonians have strong Thracian component, and that Thracians were closely related to Greeks
while Serbo-Croat-Romanian-central Ukraine- east/west Hungary cluster and Albanians arrived more recently from Asia minor...Serbo-Croat-Romanian-central Ukraine- east/west Hungary cluster probably matches settlement of I2a2 Veneti on top of R1a, E-V13 and J layer, and second one probably matches settlement of Dardanians on top of E-V13 and J layer... term Illyrians is questionable as it has included both Dardanians and Veneti and some other tribes..
so it is also possible that proto-Serbs might have been E-V13 component that has among Veneti acquired I2a2...
alternatively, proto-Serbs might have been originally R1a (as R1a is dominant in Sorbs and has unprecidentedly high variance in Serbs) or most likely I2a2 (as this is by far most frequent group in Serbs).... thing is we just do not know... it is a puzzle...
strong argument against idea that proto-Serbs are E-V13 is that wide arc of Serians from northwest China (Seres area where silk is produced) to India is clearly marked by haplogroup I (today visible in Pastun Sarbans) and less clear with R1a as well...while E1b1b is only present in the hotspots on two ends of the arc
so, it could be that E-V13 was class of merchants and goods producers situated on ends of arc shaped trade route, while haplogroup I were warriors who protected the merchant route... the merchants and producers might have originated from kingdom of Sheba and their tribal name could have been spread to part of haplogroup I warriors guarding this merchant route...
worth nothing is that Croats seems to always be as an echo of the Serbs...close and related, but diffferent... both have now dominant I2a2, Byzantian sources seems to relate them to Krevatas and Sarban in Caucasus (north of Georgia and close to location of Serboi), iranian theory of Croat origin places them in south most part of Afganistan which is part of I haplogroup arc just bellow Sarbans....
in Greek mythology, among wind gods (known as Venti in latin, which is likely related to tribal name Veneti, same as Germanic Wend used for Slavs is related to word wind) Carpus is son of Zephyrus.
but if Croats are derived from Serbs (as Zephyrus is father of Carpus) and have much less E-V13 than Serbs, this does suggest that E-V13 is afterall likely not the mark of proto-Serbs but acquired later...
this legend of origin preserved in Greek mithology actually indicates that proto-Serbs were key part of (likely I2a2 dominant) Veneti and that it was not the case that their merging with Veneti was rather recent... legend of origin also puts their birth place in Thrace... which is near areas with high variance of R1a (Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia) and I2a2 (north of Black sea and north of Adriatic sea)
in the end, worth nothing is that manuscript of anonymous Bavarian geographer from early medieval period claims that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it. Obviously this is a reference to state/area of influence of Serians as it covers huge areas of Euroasia. In historically recorded times, this state is likely already split in several not related parts...
