Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

[Shetop]

I've been reading this forum and also other different sources about genetics for some time. There is one thing which constantly catches my eyes and is concerning Slavic settlement in the Balkans.

History says that there was a massive Slavic settlement in Balkans in 6th-7th century. This would imply significant percentage of some Slavic genetic marker in today's population in Balkans but no one credibly explained who genetically are those people that settled in mentioned period.
Usually R1a is considered as Slavic haplogroup but in case of South Slavs this haplogroup does not match needed large share. This further implies that I2a2 could be this haplogroup which would be connected to those people.

It is also known from history that Serbs and Croats migrated to Balkans from regions in Central Europe but there are theories which explain their previous migration (in 4th centurty) from north Black Sea region to those areas in central Europe. And it is also almost a fact that Bulgaria was settled by tribes who lived between Carpathians and Black Sea.

And as last thing, there are several sources which support the idea of Iranian language origin of names for Serbs, Croats, Antes. History also says that before being Slavicized Sarmatian tribes (and it is confirmed Antes are related to Sarmatians) spoke language belonging to Iranian group of languages.

By connecting all these facts and assumptions do you think I2a2 could be connected to people who lived North of the Black See in Roman times and those are Sarmatians. This would of course imply that Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Bosnians and Bulgarians can trace their origin in Sarmatia.

That kind of conclusion would set R1a as only Slavic marker and would also explain genetic difference in South and the rest of the Slavs.
One more thing that backs up this theory is high I2a2 frequencies in historical area of Sarmatians (around today’s Moldova).

[LeBrok]

I think Slavic is more like R1a1a7, most likely I2a2 was slavonized and goes hand in hand with R1a1a7 for good 2000-3000 thousand years. But I wouldn't bet on it maybe it was vise versa. I'm not sure if we can call R1a Slavic in general, more like protoslavic, but about 4000 years ago it was same as protobaltic. Maybe we should call it Scythian, most likely they gave rise to Slavic, Baltic, Iranian, Arians before the split. Before that 5000 years ago, R1a Battle Axe culture dominated central, east and North Europe. Genetic record show it was the first incursion into central and north Europe. I think that's the time they started mingling with I2a2.
I'm really looking forward to extensive genetic testing of old graves from this region to really shine light on the subject. Bustards didn't leave us any written word, lol.

PS. Did you came upon info about who were Venedi?
PS. There was a legend in Poland that the ruling class came from Sarmatia.
I was looking at maps showing Sarmatea and Scythea, they all show something different lol, hard to trust one.

[LeBrok]

Strong signature of I2a2 in Moldova is very interesting considering that once gates opened in 4th century many nations went through there like Huns, Magiars, Bulgars, Turks.
If Sarmatia was rich in I2a2 and Iranian tribes came from there we should see some I2a2 in Iran. I don't have any data about this, just a thought. If there is none I2a2 in Iran then Iranians came from around Caspian Sea and not the Black Sea, or I2a2 showed later in this region.
Maybe I2a2 was a late migration from Balkans between 5-10th century? Most likely though it was all over south and central Europe for thousands of years mixed with R1a.

[Shetop]

Slavs got their present name in 6th century so I'm pretty confident that Venedi is how Slavs were called before 6th century.

Maps on wikipedia seem fine to me. There we can see that Sarmatia is the most western part of Scythia.

And maybe it is not precise to consider Sarmatians as Iranian tribes. They did spoke language which is in the group of Iranian languages, but all tribes in Scythia were obviously a part of one cultural region so accepting languages by different tribes inside this region was possible.

[Maciamo]

Slavic speakers emerged from the fusion of Proto-Indo-European R1a1a from the Pontic steppe with non-IE I2a2 farmers from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture. I believe that the Proto-Slavic speakers coincided with the Globular Amphora culture in western Ukraine, Belarus and eastern Poland. The progressive fusion of these two ethnic groups after thousands of years of living side by side resulted in the replacement of the language(s) of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people by an new IE dialect with loans words from this non-IE language. This is how Proto-Slavic was born.

The South Slavic branch is a later offshoot of R1a1a and I2a2 people from Ukraine-Poland who moved to the Dinaric Alps and mixed with the indigenous I2a2 people there. This explains why there is more I2a2 in Croatia and Bosnia, although they are also Slavic speakers.

This is just my theory, but it's the best explanation I have come up with at the moment.

[Shetop]

Slavic speakers emerged from the fusion of Proto-Indo-European R1a1a from the Pontic steppe with non-IE I2a2 farmers from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture. I believe that the Proto-Slavic speakers coincided with the Globular Amphora culture in western Ukraine, Belarus and eastern Poland. The progressive fusion of these two ethnic groups after thousands of years of living side by side resulted in the replacement of the language(s) of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people by an new IE dialect with loans words from this non-IE language. This is how Proto-Slavic was born.
The South Slavic branch is a later offshoot of R1a1a and I2a2 people from Ukraine-Poland who moved to the Dinaric Alps and mixed with the indigenous I2a2 people there. This explains why there is more I2a2 in Croatia and Bosnia, although they are also Slavic speakers.
This is just my theory, but it's the best explanation I have come up with at the moment.

Your explanation creates a couple of new questions.

1. If we look at the western Balkans there appears to be more or less one I2a2 haplotype and it is Dinaric South. If there were indigenous I2a2 people before Slavic settlement, then now there should exist at least two different I2a2 haplotypes with higher percentage.
And it shouldn’t be forgotten that R1a1a in South Slavs has its own regions of higher frequencies. For example Pannonian Croatia, Slovenia, northern Bosnia, and maybe northern Serbia. All these areas are geographically divided from I2a2 regions which makes connection between I2a2 and R1a not that close.

2. If we go back to the Roman period, how should be explained Sarmatian language speakers in the region of today's Moldova.
History confirms that Bulgaria was settled in 7th century from this region by Slavic speakers. And it is also accepted that most of the Sarmatians received Slavic languages.

[Joro]

If you want to know about who Serbs are, just read Kōnstantinos VII Porphyrogennētos and his 'De administrando imperio' and it will all be clear to you
I appreciate your effort, but we Croats are Slavic people.

and if Croats were Sarmatians, so were the other Slavs. Croats only possibly inherited their name.

[Haganus]

In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?

[Joro]

In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?

they were assimilated into Slavic newcomers.Romanians are descendants of pre-Slavic peoples, and some Roman colonists.

[Shetop]

In the Roman time Yugo-Slavia and Bulgaria were inhabited by Indo-
European peoples like the Illyrians, Thracians and Rumania by the
Dacians. What has happaned with them after the arrival of the Slavic
immigrants? Did they disappear like snow before the sunshine?

I actually started this thread to make it clear for myself was there or not that Slavic migration to the Balkans. There are two possible but opposite conclusions:

1. The I2a2 is indigenous in Balkans, and opposite from that
2. Official history science describes settlement of the Slavs in 6th-7th century

I’m not defending neither of these theories, I just want to hear serious arguments for both of them. Since I’m new to the forum I can’t post the Wikipedia link but I hope you can find it based on this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Interaction_with_the_Balkan_population
This article could be answer to your question.

If I would defend second theory then genetically indigenous people could be E1b1b1 mixed with R1b. There is 2:1 proportion of those two haplogroups throughout the Balkans. And R1a could have come with I2a2 but in much smaller proportion.

[Maciamo]

Your explanation creates a couple of new questions.

1. If we look at the western Balkans there appears to be more or less one I2a2 haplotype and it is Dinaric South. If there were indigenous I2a2 people before Slavic settlement, then now there should exist at least two different I2a2 haplotypes with higher percentage.

Actually, Croatia and Bosnia have the highest diversity of I2a2 STR's. I don't think it is because I2a2 originated in this confined part of Europe. Paleolithic people were mobile hunter-gatherers and would have roamed over vast expanses of land. It's more likely that the current diversity was caused by another group of I2a2 joining the indigenous one.

And it shouldn’t be forgotten that R1a1a in South Slavs has its own regions of higher frequencies. For example Pannonian Croatia, Slovenia, northern Bosnia, and maybe northern Serbia. All these areas are geographically divided from I2a2 regions which makes connection between I2a2 and R1a not that close.

If I am right then the I2a2 found in regions with more R1a1a should be more similar to that found in Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland than to the native Dinaric I2a2.

2. If we go back to the Roman period, how should be explained Sarmatian language speakers in the region of today's Moldova.

The Samartians were not Slavic but Turkic speakers. They are closely related to the Scythians (in fact seen as a western branch of the Scythians) and originated in Central Asia, probably as the descendants of the Indo-Iranians who were later conquered by the original Turkic speakers from Mongolia in the late Antiquity.

History confirms that Bulgaria was settled in 7th century from this region by Slavic speakers. And it is also accepted that most of the Sarmatians received Slavic languages.

The Bulgars were not Slavic either, but Turkic. Modern Bulgarian language is not related (except for a few loan words) to the language of the Bulgarian invaders. No more than French was the language of the Franks...

It is interesting to see how Indo-Iranian speakers in Central Asia became Turkic speakers, but those who moved into Europe converted back to an Indo-European language, Slavic, which is quite closely related to Indo-Iranian. Both Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages are strongly associated with R1a1a people. You can read more about this in my article Turkic speakers and R1a.

[iapodos]

What is essential is that I2aDinaric haplogroup is somehow tightly coneccted both with Serbs and Croats. Not exlusively with Croats as it is usually interpretted. It appears as dominant haplogroup in regions wich was in history or nowadays inhabited with Serbs or Croats- Carpathians and Dinaric Alps. According to Constantine Porfirogenitus Serbs came to Balkan from the country called Boiki in Carpathians. Today there is ethnic group of carpathian highlanders with the name Bojki. Coincidance?

The region with highest percentage of I2a in former Yugoslavia is Herzegovina. Historically it was the first place where Serbs came when they settled in Balkans. They form principalities on the Adriatic cost- Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunia, Konavle which later all together were incorporated into unified serbian medieval state under Nemanjic dinasty. The Nemanjics, and other noble families which ruled Serbia for centuries origins from the ruling families of these principalities known also as Primorje or Land by the Sea. In 14th century these region became known as Duchy of Saint Sabbas (Saint Sabbas was Serbian prince Rastko Nemanjic who became serbian spiritual leader, patron and saint) or Herzegovina according to german title herceg.
For the prince Michailo Vishevic who ruled Zahumlje was specificially said that he originated from river Vistula.

After Turkish conqest of Serbia in 15th century, Herzegovina was the last principality which fell under the turkish domination and neighboring Montenegro survived certain autonomy even later. Serbian refugees from all over Serbdom find shelter in high and isolated herzegovinian and montenegrian mountains. To preserve national identity and Christian faith they formed specific clan system which survived to nowadays. That clan system saved the memory of national pride, Nemanjics dinasty as many of these clans were derived their origins from Nemanjics dinasty. In documents of that time, mostly Venetian, they are called Vlachs. Actually, except for way of living, sheperdic and nomadic they having nothing in common with Aromanians and other indigenous Balkan populations. Their society was patriarchal and military. They moved westward and became main population element in Military Frontier and North Dalmatia where they became known as krajisniks. They became dominant element both in Serbian and Croation sociaties, as the standard for Serbo-Croatian language became East Herzegovinian shtokavian dialect of ijekavian pronunciation.
If you see surnames and haplotypes listed in I2a project FTDNA there are few individuals which belong to herzegovinian clans Banjani,Drobnjaci, Pivljani, Piperi, Ozrinici. There is legend of that clans that they came to nowadays Herzegovina somewhere from the northwest, supressing and occuping land of inferior (how they thought) indigenous tribes of Bukumiri, Luzani, Ridjani, Kricke. Most historians consider these tribes mixed population of Balkan indigenous groups and Slavs which came in the region before coming of the Serbs.
These Herzegovian clans and their descendants are the main bearers of haplogroup I2a2 and I want to show that their origin can be traced from the White Serbs which came to Balkan in 7th century. It is also the most national conscienceness part of serbian nation and honestly speaking core one.
So my conclusion is that genetics proved migration of Serbs and Croats in the 7th century from north to south. It is obvious that high percentage could be easily explained with high natality rate typical for mountainous people.
I also think that there is something non Slavic both in Serbs and Croats, but that Non Slavic element has nothing to do with indigeneous population of Balkan and Serbs and Crats brought that element with themselves from the northern homeland.

[Joro]

1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants'). Why do you always leave out that favorite part of mine?
2)Vlachs are an ethnic group, so yes,a good part of the 'Serbs' who came with Turks are of non-Serbian and non-Slavic origin.

[iapodos]

Well Joro, if you are I2a2 and came from Herzegovina and neighboring regions then you also must be Vlach and "servant" as you said.

[Joro]

Well Joro, if you are I2a2 and came from Herzegovina and neighboring regions then you also must be Vlach and "servant" as you said.

servi/servants is a political construction, not genetical.

[iapodos]

servi/servants is a political construction, not genetical.

It is very interesting opinion. One whole European nation is a political construction of Byzantine Emperor and word play of Latin verb servare. I think that Serbs actually never existed. Enlight me, Joro, who am I indeed if I am not Serb.

[Joro]

It is very interesting opinion. One whole European nation is a political construction of Byzantine Emperor and word play of Latin verb servare. I think that Serbs actually never existed. Enlight me, Joro, who am I indeed if I am not Serb.

Well, you are a Serb, aren't you? The fact that Serbs probably were named after their serving to Byzantium won't change anything today.

[iapodos]

Well, you are a Serb, aren't you? The fact that Serbs probably were named after their serving to Byzantium won't change anything today.

if I understand correctly Serbs are actually Croats who served Byzantines and that's how they got name.

[Joro]

if I understand correctly Serbs are actually Croats who served Byzantines and that's how they got name.

that is one of the possibilities.not to get me wrong, today's serbs are a totally disctinct people with their own ethogenesis process, however, i just wanted to cut down potential Serbian mytomania on this thread in it's root.

[iapodos]

that is one of the possibilities.not to get me wrong, today's serbs are a totally disctinct people with their own ethogenesis process, however, i just wanted to cut down potential Serbian mytomania on this thread in it's root.

And it is not mytomania speaking fairytales about origins of Serbian name from word servants and that Byzantines gave them name. About origin of the name Serb, was a lot of theories but yours is most stupid one.
1. In the Eastern Germany till nowadays lives Lusatian Serbs or Sorbs, in their own language they called themselves Serbja.They never lived even near to Byzantine Empire so who gave them name
2. Frankish chronicles describes both the northern and southern Serbs as Sorabos
3. Constantine Porfirogenitus strictly describes that Serbs descended from White Serbs

[Joro]

1) and 2) are most probably not related to Balkan Serbs.
3)yes, and there is quite a possibility that he just copied that from story about arrival of Croats from White Croatia.

my theory is not stupid, because it is based on most credibile source for early history of Croats and Serbs.

[LeBrok]

Can someone explain this. What Serbs are doing in Sachsen region? Was this the place they occupied before moving south, or they came here later from south. I think history of Serbs there is long, at least from 8th century AD.
I found this link in polish only, sorry.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo%C5%82u%C5%BCyczanie
There is a mention that Serbs here are 63%R1a1

[Joro]

Can someone explain this. What Serbs are doing in Sachsen region? Was this the place they occupied before moving south, or they came here later from south. I think history of Serbs there is long, at least from 8th century AD.
I found this link in polish only, sorry.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo%C5%82u%C5%BCyczanie
There is a mention that Serbs here are 63%R1a1

those are Sorbs, not Serbs.

[iapodos]

1) and 2) are most probably not related to Balkan Serbs.
3)yes, and there is quite a possibility that he just copied that from story about arrival of Croats from White Croatia.

my theory is not stupid, because it is based on most credibile source for early history of Croats and Serbs.

Joro, with all respect for your effort to be amateur forum historian, I shall not further discuss with you about origin of Serbs and Croats.

What I want was to underline two important phrases in your statements above and it is most probably and there is a quite possibility. if you want to play historians you must give much more than that. Some credible source as you said. Otherwise it is all matter of your personal opinion, better said nationalistic opinion.
All the best for Serbian brother.

[LeBrok]

What are you 12 Joro. You behave like kid on a playground, ridiculing other kids just because they are different. We all know by now you don't like Serbs, but please, give people a chance!