Y dna haplogroup T

[adamo]

I already anticipate zanipolo will ignore your post and continue on the correct subject probably : ) but thank you for your input albanopolis

 

[zanipolo]

I saw several individuals on genographic 2.0 classed under Z709, I don't know what it is

Z709 is only a few months old and IMO is west-med. ( Iberia -Italy ) its found in central and south american old spanish lands.

You are ATM a L208+ which is eastern anatolia .............either Armenian or Kurdish....maybe even Azeri.
You do not seem to have south-west asian numbers ( i.e saudi-arabia or Jordan areas )

 

[zanipolo]

So basically I'm somehow kurdish or Iraqi Jewish as this is the highest % areas of P-77, also the Quaish tribe of Saudi Arabians Nejd/Hejaz regions have quite some P-77, do you have any more info on P-77?

you are not P77 because you have not been tested for it

 

[adamo]

What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...

 

[zanipolo]

What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...

talks to the guys I linked, I cannot help anymore, I do not know enough

 

[zanipolo]

What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"[/QUOTE
The way the sampling is carried out is very misleading. The population of Italy should be divided in areas with equal number of populations, and out of them should be extracted the same sample size. I am sure the genetists have taken statistics at school but they should tell us, how they did it. People like me are very sensitive in mathematical way the study was carried. Othewise the generalisations are misleading. I have seen the Greek studies and they will tell you how the Egean Islands population Cluster genetically and then they average it out with the rest of the areas to come with national numbers. Bot when you see it closely, Egean Island population is 150 000 you cant average it out with 7 milion that live in south, even if the sample size is the same. South and Central Italy are predominntly middle Eastern extraction. I never thought about it.

the numbers are justified because it deals with ONLY one area, if it was done by nation or split it will be 100% wrong and results for some markers would be diluted.
its like rome numbers would be different from taranto numbers and a person can read it better, but if they where joined then the numbers would be irrelevant .

Genetics does not recognise national borders, its only people like us that carry on about national borders and what genetic place we are from.

 

[adamo]

It seems that the Elamites where the ancestors of all Persians, so judging on haplogroup T's low but relatively higher frequency in that region, hg T was probably a first, ancestral substratum of Persians ( Iranians) as using the term Persians would be incorrect, considering they where an indo-European group, the Persians where new foreign migrants whereas the Elamites where the original iranian group.

 

[zanipolo]

@Adamo

Haplogroup T (known as Haplogroup K2 until May 2008) is defined by SNP M184 and is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Most lines in T belong to subgroup T1a defined by SNP M70 which until March 2011 was considered equivalent to M184.
T1a in turn splits into T1a1 (T-L162), T1a2 (T-L131) and T1a3 (T-L1255).
T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.

Recent developments including the Geno 2.0 chip have identified the following major subgroups of T1a:

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)
Most lineages in T will belong to one of these 5 branches. The first two are strictly speaking paragroups and may split into several branches when more data is available.

Thomas Jefferson is believed to have belonged to haplogroup T, based on tests carried out on individuals sharing his paternal line.
For more information on T and the Jefferson family link see:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/114108057/ABSTRACT
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6332545.stm

..................................
You are L208, you need to test for either Z709 or P77 ...........you cannot be positive in both. your decision. Once you are positive ignore the other unless the first tested is negative

 

[adamo]

T1a P-77 dominates mizrahim Jews (Iraqi,Kurdish,Iranian) and Ashkenazi Jews. European members of early T1a branches, such as T1a or T1a1, probably reflect older Neolithic gene flow to Europe coming from Jordanians or Assyrians, for example. Once we touch T1a2 (P77), these Europeans cluster heavily with middle eastern/European branches of Jewish diaspora. Within the T network, there are 29 links to middle eastern populations, 27 links to Jews, 8 to Europeans and 5 to Africans. The entire P77 family is predominantly Jewish.

 

[adamo]

Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?

 

[adamo]

The early a branch you are, the more Assyrian/Jordanian you are...anything more downstream ( younger or as young as) P77 (other than T3 kuwait)is probably spread by Jews. Whereas many T1a's are ancient Neolithic non-Jewish.

 

[Sile]

Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?

Z709 is before P77 , IIRC its only a few months old

L-208 is found in russian site only in assyria and britain

 

[adamo]

So L-208 is found in Russians, British and Assyrians, P77 is found predominantly in various Jewish communities from the mizrahim to the Ashkenazim, where is Z709 found, any more areas where L208 can be found?

 

[adamo]

T2 for example, (L131) is found in Northern Europe, east and south Eastern Europe and parts of Anatolia.it is also prevalent among African Lemba, and some people from XInjiang and parts of southeastern Iberia and Tunisia. The main sub-branches of T2 , P322 and P327 are found predominantly in middle eastern Palestinians and Yemenite Jews. In Europe, these sub branches are found in parts of Scandinavia, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands.

 

[adamo]

The T1a2 network is composed of 5 Jewish, 5 middle eastern, 5 African and 5 European links. Some of the most basal branches of haplogroup T (L206) have been found in Syrians (T-M184). As for T1 (M70), it is first attested in Iranian Jews and Iraqi Jews, from where it probably arrived from further eastwards of Iran ( keeping in mind that K2 mutated after the K-M9 polymorphism. ( K-M9 originated in north-central Iran and K2 originated afterwards, probably further east.) As for T1a (PS21) which is first attested as being found in "Iran", it makes up the vast majority of Egyptian, Ethiopian, Druze, Jordanian, Assyrian, Iranian, Moroccan Jewish, Ethiopian Jewish and Ashkenazi Jewish T haplotypes; also most haplogroup T is T1a in Iraqi and Syrian samples, as well as 40% of Turkish samples. A more downstream mutation T1a-P77, is found primarily in mizrahim Jews ( Iraqi, Kurdish, Iranian Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.) so most Jewish T is downstream forms of T1a as well. P77 is found in a minute (minimal) amount of Egyptian, Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian and half of Iraqi T is also P77, not to mention half of Turkish Jews. The P77 network has something like 14 Jewish links, 5 middle eastern, 2 European 1 African link. Downstream of that P330, is found in Assyrians. Downstream of that P321 is found once more, in Syrians and Ashkenazi Jews. P317 further downstream, is found only in "Syrians and italian Jews."

 

[adamo]

It seems that F ( southern Mesopotamia ) gave birth to I,J,H,G and K. K was born in central Iran. It produced P which moved to the plains of kazakhstan and would create R and Q. K also created N and O which would penetrate deep into east Asia, (N would move into Siberia and then to extreme northeastern Europe,). L would move from central iran, through southern pakistan and into India. T would move from central Iran to southern Afghanistan/ extreme east Iran.

 

[Sile]

Paper below is an important ancient history for T

http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-08-01.pdf

it follows this paper below

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html

they involve Sumerians, Elamites and the important Uruk people

Note: In Dnatribes, terms are different to most others, example...Greek means , Greece, Albania and southern Italy.
Thracian means Bulgarian, Romanian and Moldovian
Belgic means Kent ( England ) Netherlands, Belgium and parts of NE France

 

[adamo]

Given the inhospitable climatic conditions4 and paucity of archaeological remains3 in Armenia from the millennia preceding the Neolithic, the predominance of Neolithic Y-chromosomes in Armenia suggests that the region was sparsely settled before the arrival of early farmers.5 Settlement during the Mesolithic, such as those observed near Sasun,4 were likely only fleeting. We envision a hypothetical, yet compelling, scenario in which Neolithic agriculturalists from the Levant occupied a vacant Armenian Plateau. This is reflected in the contour plots in Figure 4, where variance estimates indicate a demic decreasing gradient from the Levant toward Armenia, while frequencies illustrate an inverse cline, supporting the idea that the migrants from the Levant constitute a great proportion of the Armenian population. According to this contention, most Paleolithic genetic signals currently detected in the Armenian highlands represent influx of chromosomes from continuously settled areas and not vestiges from older occupations. This is supported by time estimates for Haplogroup T-M184, a clade believed to have originated in the Near East during the Paleolithic,46 as we observe dates in Armenia (~12–13 kya) lower than those in other regions of the Near East, including Iran and the Levant (~20 kya). Such a disparity suggests the Haplogroup T lineages presently observed in Armenia were introduced by migrations that are more recent than those that carried Haplogroup T to the Levant and Iran. Given the difficulties associated with absolute dating, it is also possible that these markers were carried by migrants entering Armenia during an even later era, such as the Bronze Age if the T lineage within genetic contributors has been lost to genetic drift. Interesting information on hg T

 

[adamo]

The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya).

 

[adamo]

According to a study on Armenian haplogroups, it seems haplogroup T arrived later there than in the levant or Iran, for example. The center of the T diagram depicts a Levantine network, with all other groups radiating out from there. This potentially points to a Levantine origin for T, further supported by a very high network diversity in the levant as well.