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Thread: Y dna haplogroup T

  1. #176
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province.



    Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
    Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province.



    Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
    Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?
    yes on the areas you mentioned. basically from east of the caspian sea to the aral sea.

    aral sea, at end of bronze-age it was 260metres deep, today its about 3 metres deep maximum.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #178
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    T L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
    T* -
    T1 L206, L490, M193
    • • T1* -
    • • T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
    • • • T1a* -
    • • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
    • • • • T1a1* -
    • • • • T1a1a L208/Page2, L905
    • • • • • T1a1a* -
    • • • • • T1a1a1 Z709
    • • • • • • T1a1a1* -
    • • • • • • T1a1a1a P77
    • • • • • T1a1a2 P321
    • • • • • • T1a1a2* -
    • • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
    • • • T1a2 L131
    • • • • T1a2* -
    • • • • T1a2a P322, P328
    • • • • T1a2b L446
    • • • T1a3 L1255

    August branches of T

    latest is that
    T1a1a2 P321
    • • • • • • T1a1a2* -
    • • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
    from above will be renamed T1a4 branch

  4. #179
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    So T1a is in fact M70, where are the basal T branches most common?

  5. #180
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    new SNP's for T

    • CTS6507, CTS9882 are located downstream of P77. Listed 5 December 2013.
    • CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 are possibly equivalent to L446. Listed 5 December 2013.


    T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.


    discrepencies found in Nat Geo for T
    L206 and M193 are at the haplogroup T level according ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html and ISOGG_HapgrpK.html, and at the T1 level according to ISOGG_HapgrpT.html. (Only 2 of 11 haplogroup T Geno kits have been scored L206+ and 1 of 11 scored M193+.)

    I have M193+ and L206- ....both are on same branch ..........so I think it means little

  6. #181
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    What about T-PF7443; there are two of us on genographic project, me and some German fellow, my last genographic PowerPoint slide is T-M70+ followed by L299+.

  7. #182
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    @adamo

    you have as you say I2a

    well by greatgrandmothers father on my paternal side, came from capodistria ( istria ) and is I2c marker, arriving in Veneto under the early austrian rule of 1820

    EDIT - I think the austrians where setting up a slavic buffer lands there which became known as the Austrian Littoral - so they where moving people out of these "slovene/croat" areas before they put more slavs there

  8. #183
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    Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup

  9. #184
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup
    I doubt it, your line seem to arrive in Italy by sea, my line as I gathered from various scholars I spoken and wrote to, came into Italy by Germanic/italic/tyrolese alpine area previous to this via bulgaria/romania pontid area, previous to this azeri/south caucasus ( with a small north caucasus chance......balkar people) and earlier still to bactrian/sogdian lands

    Azeri/south caucasus would be middle bronze-age

    Thats basically what I was told, of course there is some minor flexibility in this

  10. #185
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    So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?

  11. #186
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?
    yes or lived with them and then sailed with them

  12. #187
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    The big Sile was a sailor

  13. #188
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    The only man I know that is T-M272* at its most basal is an Avar man (avar live just north of Azerbaijan) who now lives in turkey. These people are originally said to have migrated from the Khorasan region of Iran towards the northeastern Caucasus (Dagestan region more or less).

  14. #189
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    Sile, what is T-pages00002?

  15. #190
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    T-CTS6901; which form of t is that?

  16. #191
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    FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
    1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
    2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by RZA79 View Post
    FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.
    Welcome to Eupedia RZA79
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  18. #193
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    There are Jewish clusters within the T network, that is correct. T is very rare in Ashkenazi Jews (making up significantly less than 5% of their lineages). It's interesting that you point out that you are y-DNA J, as it is the dominant haplogroup in the Middle East (Arabs,Semites,Turks etc.) It is a mutation shared with both Arabs and Jews (Semites). As for T, it is also present in Jewish and non-Jewish populations, and certainly originated long before the creation of the Jewish ethnos, somewhere on the Iranian peninsula. It is far more frequent in mizrahim Jews than in European ones. Welcome to the forum, RZA79! : )
    Last edited by adamo; 15-01-14 at 11:27.

  19. #194
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    J2 is another interesting haplogroup, I consider it to be the "Mesopotamian one" as it originated somewhere between southern turkey and northern Syria/Iraq. It is the dominant male lineage in the Fertile Crescent (northern Middle East). It is found in 35% of Lebanese, Cretans and Azeris, 30% of Syrians, Iraqis,Georgians,armenians,turks, Cypriots and at a similar frequency in southern Italians and Greeks. It is also found in 20% of Jews. Overall, the J marker represents about half of all Iraqi, Jordanian , Jewish, Lebanese and Syrian lineages, regardless of the subclade. You should be proud of having a subclade of this marker : )

  20. #195
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    So your a paternal J-L210 and your other grandfather is T-M70+, do you know what your maternal lineages are?

  21. #196
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    Interesting fact: Zoroastrian fire temples were built on the island of Zanzibar. The Zoroastrian religion originated in Iran.

  22. #197
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    Thanks LeBrok!

  23. #198
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    Hi adamo, thanks for the warm welcome. My direct maternal lineage is M33, but not sure about my father's maternal side. Perhaps I can convince him to do Geno 2.0. My wife (Hungarian Ashkenazi) is H1b.

    While membership in the J2 paternal haplogroup makes perfect sense to me, I was very surprised with my "Indian" M mtDNA....

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Sile, what is T-pages00002?
    just a different genetic tester person

    all are below

    AF = Fernando Mendez, Ph.D., University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona
    CTS = Chris Tyler-Smith, Ph.D., The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, England
    DF = anonymous researcher using publicly available full-genome-sequence data, including 1000 Genomes Project data; named in honor of the DNA-Forums.org genetic genealogy community
    F = Li Jin, Ph.D., Fudan University, Shanghai, China
    FGC = Full Genomes Corp. of Virginia and Maryland
    G = Verónica Gomes, IPATIMUP Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology of the University of Porto)
    IMS-JST = Institute of Medical Science-Japan Science and Technology Agency
    KHS = Functional Genomics Research Center, Korea Research Institute of Bioscience and Biotechnology
    KL = Key Laboratory of Contemporary Anthropology, School of Life Sciences and Institutes of Biomedical Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai, China
    L = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center; snps named in honor of the late Leo Little
    M = Peter Underhill, Ph.D. of Stanford University
    N = The Laboratory of Bioinformatics, Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
    NWT = Northwest Territory, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
    P = Michael Hammer, Ph.D. of University of Arizona
    Page, PAGES or PS = David C. Page, Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research
    PF = Paolo Francalacci, Ph.D., Università di Sassari, Sassari, Italy
    PK = Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan
    PR = Primate (gorilla and chimpanzee), Thomas Krahn's WTTY
    S = James F. Wilson, D.Phil. at Edinburgh University
    SA = South America, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
    TSC = Gudmundur A. Thorisson and Lincoln D. Stein, The SNP Consortium, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, Cold Spring Harbor, NY
    U = Lynn M. Sims, University of Central Florida; Dennis Garvey, Ph.D. Gonzaga University; and Jack Ballantyne, Ph.D., University of Central Florida
    V = Rosaria Scozzari and Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “Charles Darwin” , Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy.
    VL = Vladimir Volkov, Tomsk University, Russia
    Y = Y Full Team using data from the 1000 Genomes Project
    YSC = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center
    Z = Gregory Magoon, Ph.D., Richard Rocca, Vince Tilroe, David F. Reynolds, Bonnie Schrack, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, Ray H. Banks, Roman Sychev, Victar Mas, Steve Fix, Christian Rottensteiner, and an anonymous individual, independent researchers of publicly available whole genome sequence datasets, and Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.), with support from the genetic genealogy community.

  25. #200
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    Mtdna M is way "out there" for a middle easterner, but it just comes to solidify that you aren't European in terms of genetic composition.

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