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Thread: Y dna haplogroup T

  1. #201
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Also, your wife seems to be a rare Jew with a more European maternal side. Your markers though are overwhelmingly middle eastern from the little we know, with an additional M marker thrown in there (I don't know how it got in a Jew) which seems to have an Indian/southeast Asian center of weight, although basal M1 seems to be found in Egypt, the Horn of Africa and a small portion of the Arabian peninsula , it has North African + mild middle eastern presence. All other forms of M past M1 (M2 and etc.) seem to have India as a center of weight.

  2. #202
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.

  3. #203
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.
    Hungarians came from the Ural mountains, are you saying central asians or the much much later magyar hungarians?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  4. #204
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L210
    MtDNA haplogroup
    M33

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Adamo- do you have an academic background in genetic anthropology or did you gain all your knowledge from personal interest and practice?


    And are you saying that you feel my M mt-DNA more likely originates from a westward migration from India to the Near East in ancient times, rather than admixture with Eastern Europeans in relatively more modern times? Apparently the M33c subclade is somewhat commonly found in Belarus/Russia.

    My outward features are more typically northern European- I'm 6'2" (188 m), fair skin, light hair, blue eyes. But this seemingly contrasts with my autosomal DNA makeup, according to NG Geno 2.0 and with the analysis you made, based on my haplogroups.

    Mediterranean: 59%
    SW Asian: 20%
    N European: 16%
    NE Asian: 3%
    Subsaharan Africa: 2%

  5. #205
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L210
    MtDNA haplogroup
    M33

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!

    What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.

  6. #206
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by RZA79 View Post
    Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!

    What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.
    so, your uncle is T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454, Found in northern Anatolia and Germany. why are you talking about your J marker?

    Your uncle would have come from anatolia either via the danube or via the pontic steppes

  7. #207
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    So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.

  8. #208
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.
    I agree with a Phoenician origin,

    pisans where involved heavily in merchant trade in the levant, engaged in the crusades and had a "warehouse" in pala in constantinople. The genoese basically destroyed the pisan merchants by the 13th century.

    you never know , your pisan line could be associated with the ibelins
    from the film...kingdom of Heaven
    The Ibelin family rose from relatively humble origins to become one of the most important noble families in the Crusader states of Jerusalem and Cyprus. The family claimed to be descended from the Le Puiset viscounts of Chartres, but this appears to be a later fabrication. They were more probably from Pisa Italy, the name 'Barisan' being found in Tuscany and Liguria related to Azzopardi family.
    They originally took a lot of their people( household) back with them to Italy once their lands in the levant got taken by the saracens

  9. #209
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.
    what is this M33c? is this your Italian or ?

    I found this
    M33c seems to be the clade related to Belarus, and Ashkenazi Jews in the Lithuania/Belarus/Russian region.

    There is also a mtDNA M* project in Family Tree DNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/M%2 ... Haplogroup
    Background
    Family Tree DNA's haplogroup description of M: Haplogroup M cluster has been characterized as generally of east Eurasia—a geographic region that includes south Asia, east Asia, and Australasia.

    this talks about M33c in India , but I see no M33c in the tree
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0007447

  10. #210
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    No Sile, my pisan side is I2a3 paternal. Southern italian (south-central) is T1a1a3.

  11. #211
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    M33 belongs to RZA79 not me. Again, I'm typing from an iPad so bear with me it takes a long time to type things out. Also, RZA79's cousin is T-Z10, which I know has both middle eastern and Jewish clusters on ftdna, same for Z709, it is one of the T subclades that is most present in Jews (T-P77).

  12. #212
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L210
    MtDNA haplogroup
    M33

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Sile: I initially explained my interest in the T1a1 haplogroup despite belonging to J2 and then adamo was nice enough to give me general information on J2, then elaborate on my personal background. I hope you don't mind me going off topic from the thread.

  13. #213
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    No, my account was blocked. I know because of the "denied access" error code I received. I don't give a rats patoonia who I pissed off, there gonna fix this issue.
    ok, i was confused in that I thought you where also RZA79

  14. #214
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    M33

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    Obviously all we can do is speculate, but a Phoenician origin seems the most logical based on history and geography. Have you considered the possibility of descent from Near Eastern POWs or slaves taken to ancient Rome, then later absorbing into the Roman/Campanian general population. Or perhaps descent from expelled 15th century Sicilian (or even Spanish/Portuguese) Jews who became neofiti? I've read that Ferdinand I of Naples protected these Sicilian exiles. Maybe it's just my personal bias :)

  15. #215
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    Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
    These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).

  16. #216
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    Slaves taken to Rome or near eastern POWs are "way out there" suggestions. I would think of it more like my T marker being part of the natural southern italian landscape, having arrived via some Phoenician ancestor to the general region long ago. I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sephardic or Portuguese Jews, who seem to be higher in the younger T1b variants (T2).

  17. #217
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L210
    MtDNA haplogroup
    M33

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?

  18. #218
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by RZA79 View Post
    I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?
    You confusing yourself and everybody else

    Ydna ( paternal)
    T L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
    T1 L206, L490, M193
    T1a M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
    T1a1 L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
    T1a1a L208/Page2, L905
    T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458

    Above is your uncle's line if he has PF7443.........basically your uncle has one or more markers of every line in his ydna to get to T1a1a3


    Do you have also a Maternal T marker which is completely different from the paternal T marker ?......see maternal below
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28mtDNA%29

  19. #219
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
    These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).
    Every marker has a small jewish percentage in it, i cannot understand you, that if you say T is 30000 years old, how does it match with jews, when Judaism is only 6000 years old. the numbers do not match. Makes zero sense to me.
    Sorry, I believe there is NO such thing as a jewish marker, no such thing as a slavic marker or Germanic marker etc etc

    Either your marker was part Phoenician or it went with the Phoenicians.

    T1b, which I am.....is stated by genetics as the northern branch of T and my tests reveals this. The lowest part of the world I sit is in chios island or ancient lycians , everything else is north of this line. the amazing thing is that I have less than 1% iberian, zero african, ........basically as per Ftdna 100% European and 99.8% European by 23andme

    below are the basic 5 branches of T
    3 with T1a and 2 with T1b

    T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
    T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
    T-P77 (T1a1a1a)

    T-P322 (T1a2a)
    T-L446 (T1a2b)

  20. #220
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    So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.

  21. #221
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.
    there are papers to read on the bottom of
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

    and
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

  22. #222
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Haplogroup T can be originally from the Persian Gulf before it was flooded 9,500 years ago ! http://historycycles.org/flood.html

  23. #223
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    I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.

  24. #224
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    H95a1 ..Pannoni

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    North Alpine Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.
    My theory is that T originated between and including Zargos mountains to the caspian sea SE area ( including modern Tehran)........which is why I associated the marker with more modern tribes of Bactrian and Parthian

  25. #225
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    Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?

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