R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

[Haganus]

The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.

[Wilhelm]

The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.

Well that's not quite true. Actually it is the germanic tribes who were blonde, not as much with the Celts. Read some scientists authors like Oppenheimer who believe Celts were dark-haired, atlanto-alpine-mediterranean, also see you can see the Lindow man reconstruction :

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

Why you cannot believe it ?? The R1b in Spain is the same branch (M269-P312) as the found in the rest of Western europeans. And not only are we related by R1b, but also by the maternal H1, H3, V

About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.

Well That's not true. The archeological evidences, linguistic evidences are overwhelimng. This is the expansion of the LaTene and Hallstat culture :

[^ lynx ^]

You're perfectly free to refuse to believe in all historical and genetic researches about Iberia, Haganus.

I will not argue with someone whose best argument is that celtics could have never invaded Iberia because the ancient iberian tribes were "warlike and macho-men like the Spaniards today".

[Haganus]

Many thanks for your information. But why did the R1b Celts have dark
hair and dark eyes? And the fair haired Dutch and Danes have the haplogroup
R1b too. Please explain how it is possible. Celts did never go to north
of the Netherlands, north Germany and Denmark. It is thought that R1a
caused the blond hair. But why did the haplogroup I not cause the fair hair?
The region where the haplogroup I is the most numerous is exactly the
homeland of the ancient Germanic tribes, the so called Northern Bronze Culture.

But the ancient Iberians strenghten the dark haired element of the Celts.
Till the Roman era Iberian languages were spoken in Spain (for example
the words: perro-dog, burro-donkey). And Herodotus described the Celts
who lived in south Germany and Austria as fair haired.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene
Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about
500 BC. Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the
Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by
intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.

I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

About the Celtic tribes: they lived afterwards in France (Gaule) but never
in the norhern areas like Belgium and Netherlands. Celtic tribes have been
restricted to the Latene and Hallstat Culture.

For heavens sake "Celtic" is primarily a cultural category. Moreover, Celticity, given the mounting scientific evidence, could well have risen first in SW Iberia. You are completely clueless... You apparently don't believe in a lot of things that have long been proven.

Again - since you seem to ignore basic information that doesn't correlate with your highly incorrect notions of certain ethnicities - the majority of Spaniards (and Portuguese) are ATLANTIC PEOPLE WITH PALEO-ATLANTID, NORDID ATLANTID AND ATLANTO-MEDITERRANEAN PHENOTYPES. More traditional Mediterranean (people from the eastern Mediterranean) types - in Iberia, semi-Eastern Mediterranean actually - are found essentially in the south and south-east of the Peninsula. Come now, let's start dealing with reality...

Speaking of classic historians, whose writings I hardly trust very much, Herodotus identified the Celts as peoples occupying south-west Iberia.

[Wilhelm]

Many thanks for your information. But why did the R1b Celts have dark
hair and dark eyes? And the fair haired Dutch and Danes have the haplogroup
R1b too. Please explain how it is possible. Celts did never go to north
of the Netherlands, north Germany and Denmark.

The germanics and celts are two different branches of R1b-M269. The germanics (Dutch, Danes, etc) have the U106 branch, while the Celtic branch is the P312/S116.

But the ancient Iberians strenghten the dark haired element of the Celts.
Till the Roman era Iberian languages were spoken in Spain (for example
the words: perro-dog, burro-donkey). And Herodotus described the Celts
who lived in south Germany and Austria as fair haired.

No. Till the Roman era, Celtic languages were spoken in 3/4 of the Iberian Peninsula (Lusitanian, Tartassian, Celtiberian, etc) and Iberian languages in the East

[Haganus]

Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.

[Wilhelm]

Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.

In his book "The Origins of the British - A Genetic Detective Story. 2006

There are other authors also such Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, John Collins, etc. And also :

Saxon Etheldreda's 'Liber Eliensis' documents the Fenland tribe of the Girvii (Gywre), who are cited elsewhere as being an independent people with dark hair and their own (Brythonic) language.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Please which title is Oppenheimer's book in which he wrote that the Celts were dark
haired? In advance many thanks for your information.

You may also wish to read J. Koch's latest book: Tartessian: Celtic from the South-west at the Dawn of History.

[^ lynx ^]

More traditional Mediterranean (people from the eastern Mediterranean) types - in Iberia, semi-Eastern Mediterranean actually - are found essentially in the south and south-east of the Peninsula

"eastern mediterranean" haplogroups peak in the south-west of the Peninsula, actually.

[^ lynx ^]

Balanovsky et al (2008). Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups R1a, R1b, N3, and N2 in Europe.


Population grouping. Most of populations with sample size less than 40 were omitted or pooled. Data on the same group from the different
sources with the sample sizes greater than 40 were pooled when exact localities were not specified in all sources. The map scales are
different for frequent (R1a, R1b, and N3, 10% scale step) and less frequent haplogroups (the other five, 5% step); for all maps, the first
interval indicates virtual absence (less than 1%). The bar graph above the scale shows the portion of the total area covered by the
respective scale interval. Abbreviations in the statistical legend indicate the following: K, number of the studied populations; n, number
of samples in K populations; and MIN, MEAN, and MAX, the minimal, mean and maximum frequencies on the map.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Balanovsky et al (2008). Distribution of Y Chromosomal Haplogroups R1a, R1b, N3, and N2 in Europe.


Population grouping. Most of populations with sample size less than 40 were omitted or pooled. Data on the same group from the different
sources with the sample sizes greater than 40 were pooled when exact localities were not specified in all sources. The map scales are
different for frequent (R1a, R1b, and N3, 10% scale step) and less frequent haplogroups (the other five, 5% step); for all maps, the first
interval indicates virtual absence (less than 1%). The bar graph above the scale shows the portion of the total area covered by the
respective scale interval. Abbreviations in the statistical legend indicate the following: K, number of the studied populations; n, number
of samples in K populations; and MIN, MEAN, and MAX, the minimal, mean and maximum frequencies on the map.

I did say south (all south) and south-east but was referring to phenotypes.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

^Lynx^:

Do you have a direct link to the Balanovsky study? I got only a partial article by Wiik when I googled.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

You're perfectly free to refuse to believe in all historical and genetic researches about Iberia, Haganus.
I will not argue with someone whose best argument is that celtics could have never invaded Iberia because the ancient iberian tribes were "warlike and macho-men like the Spaniards today".

We all know that Spaniards (all Iberians) are a bunch of Neanderthals...such animals.

[^ lynx ^]

^Lynx^:

Do you have a direct link to the Balanovsky study? I got only a partial article by Wiik when I googled.

Sorry Cambria, I've tried to found the complete study as well but no results. I get the map above from flickr.com.

Greetings.

[Wilhelm]

this is the entire study :

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf

[Segia]

Haplogroups don't equate ethnolinguistic genesis. R1b is not necessary IE or others (basque-iberian....), it's only mutations in the Y-chromosome. People interbreed and we don't know which was the ethnolinguistic adscription of its first carrier when the mutation took place. Let's say the same haplogroup can correspond to diverse linguistic strata from the "very first" (some generations of men moving from here to there, mixing with other human populations, converging and diverging lanuages....)

[Cambrius (The Red)]

this is the entire study :
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf

Thanks much.

[^ lynx ^]

Thanks Wilhelm.

I did say south (all south) and south-east but was referring to phenotypes.

Well, we're still in disagreement.

Greetings.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Tartessian, the first Celtic language:


http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Doc...h/ODonnell.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language

[Haganus]

Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?

[Wilhelm]

Tartessian, the first Celtic language:


http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Doc...h/ODonnell.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language

And John Koch :

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaci.../54/26koch.pdf

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Interesting details about the Celts in Spain. I read that the Celts were
the first immigrants in the Iberian Peninsula (about 500 BC). But which
kind of tribes did live before the Celts's arrival? Iberian tribes?

Did Celtic tribes invade Belgium, Netherlands and north of Germany?
Even in Belgium the presence of the Celts is doubtful. Who were the Belgae?
Germanic tribes with Celtic names and who spoke a Celtic language
like the Germans and Russian spoke in the 18e century French?

The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.

[secherbernard]

The Tartessians of south-west Iberia may have been the FIRST Celts. Read the links Wilhelm and I posted above.

The growing consensus is that Celticity did not originate in Central Europe. Growing evidence indicates a Bronze Age Atlantic Facade origin.

Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Some archeologists think that first celts arrived with Bell Beaker in third millenium BCE in Iberia Peninsula. From here they spread on all Atlantic Facade, then in North Alps.
Only in Iron Ages, contacts between celts of North Alps and Greeks and Etruscans give the Hallstatt culture.

Yes, Bell Beaker first appeared in southern Portugal.