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Thread: R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Also, Cunliffe, Renfrew and any number of others...

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    Recent material on Atlantic Celtic origins:


    http://rokus01.wordpress.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Recent material on Atlantic Celtic origins:


    http://rokus01.wordpress.com/
    Thanks Cambria.

    Lorrio and Zapatero about the Celts in Iberia :

    http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/v...patero_6_4.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Thanks Cambria.

    Lorrio and Zapatero about the Celts in Iberia :

    http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/v...patero_6_4.pdf
    Thanks. The University of Wisconsin has published several excellent Iberian Celtic studies.

    Cunliffe and Koch's ongoing U. Wales project may radically transform notions of Celticity, shifting origins and expansion to the Atlantic Facade. It is becoming increasingly clear that Celticity originated from Bell Beaker culture in SW Iberia.

    Genetically, it seems that P312 is the "mother" Celtic subclade, found predominantly in the Atlantic Facade, Germany and some Alpine regions. The latest research on P312 should reveal new alleles, shedding additional light on Celtic circulation patterns between the Atlantic, Gaul and central European areas.

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    Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand
    that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more
    information about the so-called Northwest Block?

    The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne. Maybe the
    Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe. But where did the real
    Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?

    It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the
    east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine? Tacitus wrote
    that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?

    I am very interested to know much more about the arrival of the
    Germanic tribes in the Netherlands. Was there also a kind of relation
    with the Swedish and Norwegian tribes? When did the Germanic speaking
    tribes arrive in Scandinavia? Before them did there Sami tribes live?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    The Celtic Culture and languages arose about 1000 BC as the Latene Culture in Northeast-France, Southern Germany and Switserland-Austria.
    I've never read of traces of any Celtic language having ever been found in Southern German, Austria or Switzerland.

    I suppose that the earliest Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about 500 BC.
    A theory is that the Celts might have expand from the Iberian Peninsula. The expansion of the Celts from La Tene is an idea proposed in the nineteenth century, with little evidence, but which it has been assumed as right until recently, for the lack of other proposals.

    Generally they were blond/red haired with blue eyes like the Germanic tribes. Read the classic authors. They became much darker by intermingling with the Alpines and Mediterraneans.
    "blond" is a trait that has highest frequencies among the Finns, a largely Uralic people.

    It depends on how far you are willing to stretch the idea of European, to consider the Uralics as such. Different peoples view things differently.

    Blondness is a generally misunderstood concept when reading ancient sources. Then, like now, among populations with high frequencies of dark brown and black hair, lighter tones of brown would be seen as "blond".

    Besides, it is not true that the populations of those countries traditionally said to be Celtic have any majority of blond haired people. See Wales, Cornwall or Brittany. And in England it can be argued that most blondness came with the Saxon invasions.

    I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British, Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.
    Define "related".

    I don't think that the frequencies of R1b in Netherlands or in Denmark are that high for using them to decide what accounts as R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Two days ago I read the message on rokus01worldpress. I understand that the Celtic influence was slight in the Netherlands. Who can give more information about the so-called Northwest Block?
    I've heard something, but not much. It's only a proposal for a group of western people north of the Celtic peoples, but still unrelated to the Germanic peoples.
    East of the Rhine there were Germanic peoples at the time of the Classic Age.

    The real Celtic tribes lived south of the Canche and Marne.
    At which time? In early times they lived west of the Rhine.

    Maybe the Belgae were not a real Celtic or Germanic tribe.
    I think that all that can be said is that the Belgae were a western people. Definitely not German.

    But where did the real Germanic speaking people live before the Romans's arrival?
    If looking at the archetypical Germanic, there are traits that resemble much the archetypical Slavic.

    It strikes me that it always is assumed that the Cis Rhenani came from the east side of the Rhine. But why not from the north of Rhine?
    There is no "north" of the Rhine. It is east of the Rhine that sometimes is said north of it.

    Tacitus wrote that the first Germanic speaking tribe, who invaded Belgium, were the Tungri.They established themselves in the Belgian place of Tongeren. But is it known that in the Dutch province of Gelderland (region Veluwe) there exist a village called Tongeren. And is there any relation between the Belgian town Leuven and the village Leuvenum in the region of Veluwe?
    The Germanics were already pushing towards the west at the time when the Romans arrived there. So the Romans would have found some Germanic tribesmen already settled west of the Rhine.

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    Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
    south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.

    Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
    the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Herodotus wrote that Celtic tribes lived in Switserland, Austria and
    south-Germany. And also in Bohemia. See the Hallstatt and Latene Culture.
    Fair hair are most characteristic for the northwest european people like
    the Germanic tribes, not the Uralics who are originally mongolic.
    Herodotus wrote no such thing! Where are you getting your information from? What are you actually trying to say? Please, be clear on your facts.

    Horodotus was very confused about geography - not unlike many other scholars in his day - and he believed the source of the River Danube was in the Pyrenees where possibly some of the Keltoi (Celts) tribes dwelled. But he saw the core Celtic land further west.

    Here is exactly what he wrote about the Celts and Celtic lands:

    Segment 2.34

    I am willing to believe that [the Nile] rises at the same distance from its mouth as the [Danube], which has its source amongst the Keltoi at Pyrene and flows right through the middle of Europe, to reach the Black Sea at Mileto's colony of Istri. The Keltoi live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [the Straights of Gibraltar], near the Kunesioi who are the most westerly people of Europe

    Segment 4.48

    ...the [Danube], that mighty stream which, rising amongst the Keltoi the most westerly, after the Kunetes, of all the European nations, traverses the whole length of the continent before it enters Scythia.

    [adapted from translations of de Selincourt]

    Herodotus was obviously referring to the Keltoi (Celts) as occupying what is today far southern Portugal and southwest Spain.

    The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.

    And why do you keep insisting that Celts were predominantly fair haired people? There is no real evidence buttressing that mode of thinking. The Celts were quite likely mainly brown haired and, on average, similar to the large majority of the Atlantic Facade types found today.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 26-05-10 at 22:49.

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    Imagino que Herodoto se refería a los que de toda la vida se les ha llamado los célticos.

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    Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
    RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
    I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
    arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
    forum. What is your opinion?

    Erik

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    Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languages
    well, how it is possible, for a warrior people to be assimilated in another group?

    It was the same group of people, tha same race, the same haplogroup,

    ...and today it is the same percentage of R1b in Basque and Celtics.

    Why they are different?

    Why celtic saved, and Basque did'nt saved their language??

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
    RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
    I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
    arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
    forum. What is your opinion?

    Erik
    Forum Biodiversity is a joke.

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    the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by sea

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Forum Biodiversity is indeed ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
    thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
    Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.
    Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

    Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

    I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    Forum Biodiversity is a joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Runic View Post
    Forum Biodiversity is indeed ridiculous.
    Lol, yes it is! The biggest joke on internet.

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    I don't have anything against ABF. It has some good regular posters, like Vadim Verenich and Humanist. I prefer Eupedia, however, mainly because it has a focus that aligns with my interests better. (And we beat them in guessing Ötzi's haplogroup).

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    btw. Has anyone any idea of what happened to DNA forum?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

    Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

    I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.
    Sean Connery has very more mesolitihic phenotype than a true mediterranean one! Mc Cartney has very few traits that recall the mediterranean -
    collective phenotypes in Europe are by far more numerous than the too well known "mediterranean" and "nordic" one:
    do not put every 'black' and 'black brown hair ' type to a "mediterranean" - even among "mediterraneans" there are subtypes that had a different histories -
    but yes, in Brittain and Ireland there had been more than a wave (small or big) of southern peoples (some very close to modern true mediterraneans some others of paleo-mesolithic origin) - they were found for the most in remote enough regions and in industrial towns suburbs, their destiny tied to the celtic peoples one,in front of the germanic advance in the Isles -
    and sorry, the fair complexion people in Spain are not so common even if more common than touristic stereotypes show (all the way, there are differences between regions in the Isles as in Iberia... I can not put in the same bag coastal people of Asturias or Nrothgalicia and some remote moutainous districts of Andalusia, not focusing on pigmentation but focusing on cephalic indexes and other features

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    I add before leaving this phenotypical aspect, that even in the only Andalusia, you can find populations in districts that, even if sharing the same mixtures, show big enough differences in percentages within these mixtures (or crossings if you want) proving the different impacts of Northern Berbers, Helladic or Anatolian peoples (Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze ...) or Romans, Celts, Germanics...not speaking about more recent facts of temporary minor impact

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by sea





    Good that you come up with this stelae.

    As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

    In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

    Hakkari

    These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.
    1863802-Warriors_Van_Museum_Van.jpg
    travel03.jpg
    6088941772_a1a3b58aee.jpg

    stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

    2010086-391700-kurgan-stelae-in-the-ukrainian-steppe.jpg


    both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.




    Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.
    kurg2.jpg

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    kurg.jpgkurg5.jpgSome more Stelae from Kurdistan.
    kurg8.jpgkurg10.jpgkurg1.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Good that you come up with this stelae.

    As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

    In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

    Hakkari

    These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.

    stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

    both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.

    Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.
    I personally have a number of problems with this "stelae people" hypothesis (at least, with the identification of the "stelae people" as early Indo-Europeans:

    - the stelae have also been found in Sardinia, which lacks any presence of Indo-European languages before the Greeks/Romans, and I find it quite a stretch to assume that non-Indo-European languages arrived later in Sardinia and replaced earlier Indo-European ones, because there's just no evidence for that.

    - as others noted before, it's quite a stretch to assume that the (apparenty land-based) Indo-Europeans would seemingly move straightforward as a maritime culture from southern Ukraine to Portugal.

    - the arrival to Western Iberia seemingly immediately from Sardinia seems also to be quite a stretch, in my opinion.

    - the Stelae People are seen as the source of the Beaker-Bell culture, but, there's a number of problems with this, in my opinion: one is that from the archaeological perspective there's too much continuity with the earlier Neolithic traditions (especially in terms of Megalith constructions - notably some of the main constructions at Stone Henge took place during the Beaker-Bell period), and additionally, some archaeologists have again and again questioned the homogenity/cohesion of the Beaker-Bell Culture and prefered to refer to it as the "Beaker Bell Phenomenon" instead.

    - there is also the possibility that metal-working was an independent Western European invention (the oldest sites of Beaker-Bell metal-working are found in the 29th century BC in Portugal), seemingly out of nowhere.

    - the perhaps most decisive argument, from what I've seen thus far, is that the spreading pattern that one can infer from the distribution and relationship of R1b subclades in Central/Western Europe does not look very favourable of the stelae people hypothesis. We would expect an entry pattern from the southwest (ie western Iberia) towards the north, but rather we seem to have an original Central European entry (L11* seems to have spread from the approximate area of modern-day Germany/Poland).

    - perhaps most problematically either way is, we do not have a single sample (yet) of Y-Dna from Beaker-Bell sites.In other words, we have no way yet to verify/falsify the identity of the Beaker-Bell Culture either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
    R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
    tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


    I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?
    The gene that causes red hair is also very common in Wales!

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