R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
forum. What is your opinion?

Erik
 
Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languages
well, how it is possible, for a warrior people to be assimilated in another group?

It was the same group of people, tha same race, the same haplogroup,

...and today it is the same percentage of R1b in Basque and Celtics.

Why they are different?

Why celtic saved, and Basque did'nt saved their language??
 
Who has read on Dienekes blogspot (2 May 2010):
RMJ 269 casts doubt on its Neolithic arrival.
I understand that there serious doubts exist about the date of
arrival of the haplogroup R1b. I also read it on Forumbiodiversity-
forum. What is your opinion?

Erik

Forum Biodiversity is a joke.
 
the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by sea
StelaePeople.jpg
 
Forum Biodiversity is indeed ridiculous.
 
I cannot believe that only the Celts brought the R1b. It is an unbelievable
thing that the darkhaired mediterranean Spaniard is related the British,
Dutch and Danish man and have a commun male ancestor R1 b.

Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.
 
I don't have anything against ABF. It has some good regular posters, like Vadim Verenich and Humanist. I prefer Eupedia, however, mainly because it has a focus that aligns with my interests better. (And we beat them in guessing Ötzi's haplogroup).
 
Such an old misconception. The British Isles have a high incidence of people who have obvious "mediterranean" phenotypes, for example, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Posh Spice, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightley, all 4 Beatles, etc.

Just like the Iberian peninsula has plenty of light-haired people, with blue or green eyes. Being Dutch, you probably know some footballers: Santiago Canizares, Guti, Michel Salgado, Piqué, Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, etc.

I am sure that the proportion of dark haired/dark eyed types in Spain is higher than in the Northwest of Europe, but both regions present both the mediterranean-looking and the more nordic-looking people.

Sean Connery has very more mesolitihic phenotype than a true mediterranean one! Mc Cartney has very few traits that recall the mediterranean -
collective phenotypes in Europe are by far more numerous than the too well known "mediterranean" and "nordic" one:
do not put every 'black' and 'black brown hair ' type to a "mediterranean" - even among "mediterraneans" there are subtypes that had a different histories -
but yes, in Brittain and Ireland there had been more than a wave (small or big) of southern peoples (some very close to modern true mediterraneans some others of paleo-mesolithic origin) - they were found for the most in remote enough regions and in industrial towns suburbs, their destiny tied to the celtic peoples one,in front of the germanic advance in the Isles -
and sorry, the fair complexion people in Spain are not so common even if more common than touristic stereotypes show (all the way, there are differences between regions in the Isles as in Iberia... I can not put in the same bag coastal people of Asturias or Nrothgalicia and some remote moutainous districts of Andalusia, not focusing on pigmentation but focusing on cephalic indexes and other features
 
I add before leaving this phenotypical aspect, that even in the only Andalusia, you can find populations in districts that, even if sharing the same mixtures, show big enough differences in percentages within these mixtures (or crossings if you want) proving the different impacts of Northern Berbers, Helladic or Anatolian peoples (Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze ...) or Romans, Celts, Germanics...not speaking about more recent facts of temporary minor impact
 
the stelae people theory may explain the spread of R1b P312 but I find strange for Indo European steppe people to come to Western Europe by sea





StelaePeople.jpg

Good that you come up with this stelae.

As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

Hakkari

These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.
1863802-Warriors_Van_Museum_Van.jpg
travel03.jpg
6088941772_a1a3b58aee.jpg

stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

2010086-391700-kurgan-stelae-in-the-ukrainian-steppe.jpg


both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.
Scythian_stelae_01.jpg




Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.
kurg2.jpg
 
kurg.jpgkurg5.jpgSome more Stelae from Kurdistan.
kurg8.jpgkurg10.jpgkurg1.jpg
 
Good that you come up with this stelae.

As far as I know Kurdistan was the only place where those Stelae where found in the Near East.

In the heartland of Kurdish lands.

Hakkari

These are estimated to be from around ~2000 b.c.

stunning similarities to those found in the Ukrainian steppes. oddly these are some hundred years younger.

both have stunning similarities to Scythian art Steleas.

Later this year I saw on TV that they found some hundreds! younger stelae examples also in Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan and I made some snapshots.

I personally have a number of problems with this "stelae people" hypothesis (at least, with the identification of the "stelae people" as early Indo-Europeans:

- the stelae have also been found in Sardinia, which lacks any presence of Indo-European languages before the Greeks/Romans, and I find it quite a stretch to assume that non-Indo-European languages arrived later in Sardinia and replaced earlier Indo-European ones, because there's just no evidence for that.

- as others noted before, it's quite a stretch to assume that the (apparenty land-based) Indo-Europeans would seemingly move straightforward as a maritime culture from southern Ukraine to Portugal.

- the arrival to Western Iberia seemingly immediately from Sardinia seems also to be quite a stretch, in my opinion.

- the Stelae People are seen as the source of the Beaker-Bell culture, but, there's a number of problems with this, in my opinion: one is that from the archaeological perspective there's too much continuity with the earlier Neolithic traditions (especially in terms of Megalith constructions - notably some of the main constructions at Stone Henge took place during the Beaker-Bell period), and additionally, some archaeologists have again and again questioned the homogenity/cohesion of the Beaker-Bell Culture and prefered to refer to it as the "Beaker Bell Phenomenon" instead.

- there is also the possibility that metal-working was an independent Western European invention (the oldest sites of Beaker-Bell metal-working are found in the 29th century BC in Portugal), seemingly out of nowhere.

- the perhaps most decisive argument, from what I've seen thus far, is that the spreading pattern that one can infer from the distribution and relationship of R1b subclades in Central/Western Europe does not look very favourable of the stelae people hypothesis. We would expect an entry pattern from the southwest (ie western Iberia) towards the north, but rather we seem to have an original Central European entry (L11* seems to have spread from the approximate area of modern-day Germany/Poland).

- perhaps most problematically either way is, we do not have a single sample (yet) of Y-Dna from Beaker-Bell sites.In other words, we have no way yet to verify/falsify the identity of the Beaker-Bell Culture either way.
 
It is a strange thing that big parts of West-Europa have the haplogroup
R1b. Even in the Iberian Peninsula till 90%!It is thought that the Celtic
tribes brought the haplogroup R1b. It also is present in Ireland,West-France and Iberian Peninsula. So a very big number of Celts must have crossed the Pyrenaes to bring the haplogroup R1b.


I cannot believe it. So about 80% of the Spaniards and Portgueses must have Celts as male ancestors and are related with the red haired Irishmen, Englishmen and faired haired Danes and Dutch. Who can explain me it? And what has happened with the ancient Iberian tribes? They ware warlike and macho men like the Spaniards today. I cannot imagine myself that they accepted the penetrance of Celtic men. Who can prove the penetrance of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula?

The gene that causes red hair is also very common in Wales!
 
The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.


Really, could you give examples?
 
First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"
 
First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"

Welcome to Eupedia.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but your sources are completely outdated (2006 can be hardly called "the latest" in the context of genetics). R1b clearly didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula. In fact, it's absent in all sites with genetic samples from the Neolithic, such as Derenburg and Treilles. The oldest find currently of R1b is from a Beaker Bell Culture site in Germany, which is extensively discussed in this thread. Bryan Sykes views have are completely outdated and disproven at this point, in particular the assumption that there is just "one" R1b without caring for the fact that there's multiple subclades of it which have clear patterns of regional spreading is highly simplistic.

EDIT: You might also want to check out Maciamo's page on R1b, which explains the subclades of R1b.
 

This thread has been viewed 157809 times.

Back
Top