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Thread: R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I don't have anything against ABF. It has some good regular posters, like Vadim Verenich and Humanist. I prefer Eupedia, however, mainly because it has a focus that aligns with my interests better. (And we beat them in guessing Ötzi's haplogroup).
    What is Ötzi's haplogroug?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    The old notion that Celticity originated in Central Europe is no longer accepted by many archaeologists, historians and population geneticists. The Central European theory is not tenable. Read some of the recently published research recommended on this thread.

    Really, could you give examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus View Post
    What is Ötzi's haplogroug?
    G2a2b (old G2a4).

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    First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

    I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

    I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"
    Welcome to Eupedia.

    I'm sorry to break this to you, but your sources are completely outdated (2006 can be hardly called "the latest" in the context of genetics). R1b clearly didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula. In fact, it's absent in all sites with genetic samples from the Neolithic, such as Derenburg and Treilles. The oldest find currently of R1b is from a Beaker Bell Culture site in Germany, which is extensively discussed in this thread. Bryan Sykes views have are completely outdated and disproven at this point, in particular the assumption that there is just "one" R1b without caring for the fact that there's multiple subclades of it which have clear patterns of regional spreading is highly simplistic.

    EDIT: You might also want to check out Maciamo's page on R1b, which explains the subclades of R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    First sorry by my english. latest DNA studies shows the haplogroup R1b were born in Iberian peninsula. The celt civilization were born in Iberian peninsula. The british redheads descent directly from Iberia. There are an article almost hidden for the people. Published in 2006 by "the independent" from the studys of the british genetist Bryan Sykes, teacher of Oxford University, wich explain how the british islands are not populated by saxons, in spite of this, there are 70% iberians and 25% vikings.

    I strongly recommended the read of it. You can search by "bryan sykes independent"
    It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's People of the British Isles project. They've finally released their maps, which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western Morning News' media report.

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    I mostly see your points sparkey and Taranis. However, admixture tests show substantial allele sharing between Iberians and people from the British Isles, possibly more if we focus in Cornwall and/or Wales, although not really that much. Both Cornish and Welsh aren't incredibly different compared to their neighbours, so I tend to think that in a deeper past they were pretty much like Basques, not apreciable today due to some kind of influence emanating from West Asia, which Basques lack in all experiments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's People of the British Isles project. They've finally released their maps, which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western Morning News' media report.
    Just wondering, is there more than one map?
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    [QUOTE=Knovas;396244]I mostly see your points sparkey and Taranis. However, admixture tests show substantial allele sharing between Iberians and people from the British Isles, possibly more if we focus in Cornwall and/or Wales, although not really that much. Both Cornish and Welsh aren't incredibly different compared to their neighbours, so I tend to think that in a deeper past they were pretty much like Basques, not apreciable today due to some kind of influence emanating from West Asia, which Basques lack in all experiments.[/QUOTE


    I also agree with you and Taranis and Sparkey for recentring the topic around serious facts -
    -- admixture tests are depending on human choices and shall be improved in future being more precise, I hope -
    -- my present guess: R1b reached Western Europe maybe through two ways: a northern one not far from the Baltic shores and a southern one: Danaw or Mediterranea - it was under an intermediate form, R-L51 from L23, turning into R-11 (both North and South, the two of them in very small populations) - the northern one focused geographically around North-germany Denmark S-W Baltic, the southern one in France or everyhow around Alps mountains - the variance and the distributions of the principal derived HGs (L21, U152, S2627, Z?...I forgot) in Occident matche very well this center of diffusion: Iberia was never (for me) the first center of demographic increase, even if we can assume that very Northern Spain could have been in the margins of the center "french" or "swiss" area:
    I suppose U106 had yet is proper story, in colder climate even if not so different climate - L21 more Northern and Northwestern, with future expanding southwards along the Atlantic coasts and Borth Sea shores (Cantabricas, Euskadi-Basque country- the 'alpinized' R-U152 known an late expansion on almost every direction but a little (or more long time) after? surely with La Tène Celts but perhaps already before it concerning West - the South Italian "older" upstream HGs of Y-R1b are from other recent origin from East mediterranean (because ancient origin is the same, by definition) and the Central Europe -Danubian"newer" (western = downstream, HGs found today un Czechoslovakia and N-Croatia by instance) are recent, from a West-to-East expansion (Celts? Urnfields? both?) - the nuances between the Isles and Iberia are explained by the different proportions among the R1b-floods - nuances or not they could implicate an ancient enough separation between clades...
    the first apparition of Y-R1b is still a mystere for me: my scenario, with very few changes, could apply to a Paleo- or Mesolithic period, or a first I-Ean caused diffusion of people (I6Eans and people pushed by them
    I wait more ancient DNA for females and above all for males (Meso- and Neolithic and so on) - I avow my metric readings and personal observations about British, Iberian and French people ush me to think to ancient enough separations - THE OBSTACLE: ONE of the tribes of Bakshirs in Russia!
    good night - buenas noches

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    Even in a (out of work for someones) Paleo perspective, France did furnish more human stock to Europe repopulation than Iberia, according to the studied Paelolithic sites, look at the Aquitain richness - and maybe not only Southern France -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Just wondering, is there more than one map?
    I think there might be, but I'm not sure. We may see more next month. I did see another variant from a reproduction of a Sunday Times article here... apparently a lower-resolution cluster plot from the same data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think there might be, but I'm not sure. We may see more next month. I did see another variant from a reproduction of a Sunday Times article here... apparently a lower-resolution cluster plot from the same data.
    Ah, Cheers Sparkey. Yeah i guess there will be a small cascade of articles over the coming weeks in the media, and hopefully more of the project will be revealed soon!

    That's an interesting article, cherry picked but it does include a couple of things i hadn't read on the main site. It's interesting reading these articles and seeing how prevalent the Iberian Refugium idea still is. I think the similarity of the Welsh to the Irish and French is probably the key thing there though - Looks very much L21 related.
    Hehe i thought the Cornish would like this, it's what they've been waiting for i suppose.
    Hopefully the picture will become clearer when the samples for Europe are integrated into the analysis.

    Thanks for the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    It's interesting reading these articles and seeing how prevalent the Iberian Refugium idea still is.
    It's a bit irritating to be honest, especially considering that these full-genome cluster plots don't give any resolution on temporal differences. What's the TMRCA of these clusters?... who knows. These results have nothing to say about the Iberian Refuge theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    I think the similarity of the Welsh to the Irish and French is probably the key thing there though - Looks very much L21 related.
    Agreed. Similarly, the red cluster reaches its peak in R1b-U106-heavy areas. Personally, I'd like to see these clusters on a relationship chart, rather than just on a map. I wonder how close the Cornish gold cluster is going to be to the Devon/Somerset green cluster... the initial reports indicate that the Cornish are extra-special, but I have a feeling that the green cluster will form a bridge between the gold and the red clusters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Hehe i thought the Cornish would like this, it's what they've been waiting for i suppose.
    It's funny that Cornish Nationalists, a rather small group of folks, have published and commented on these preliminary releases more than anybody else that I've seen, including the genetic hobbyist community. Like, that's the only place I've seen that version of the map online.

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    One error of thinking that marks the original post is the error of associating to much in the way of hereditary somatic characteristics to the Y haplotype. Please do not forget that, when speaking of the Y chromosome, we are talking about a TINY portion of the total genetic information. Y haplotypes are of interest for their usefulness in tracking one's MALE LINE ONLY (a small portion of your total heredity). This is because of, of course, the unique nature of MOST of the Y chromosome it its exclusive source from ones male parent (serially over countless generations) and the fact that (most) of it does not undergo recombination with the corresponding DNA on the X chromosome. But, in the wholistic scheme of ontogeny, the DNA information on the Y chromosome carries VERY LITTLE of importance to salient somatic characteristics such as body type, build, color of hair, skin and eyes, etc., etc.. So because Iberians of today don't LOOK like Irishmen of today, do not be misled in thinking that they might very well be of the same Y haplotype! The two things are very distantly if at all connected!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's funny that you mention Sykes 2006 as "the latest," when there actually is some real latest genetic studies of Britain being rolled out from Bodmer's people of the british isles project. They've finally released their maps, which they have been contending demonstrate major Anglo-Saxon influence in England and lowland Scotland, with Scandinavian influence mostly felt in the Orkneys, and the Cornish and Welsh being the most obviously pre-Anglo Saxon populations in Britain. See also Western morning news' media report.
    Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.
    Did you check of any of the other links? There clearly is such genetic influence by the Anglo-Saxons. The most likely obvious Y-Haplogroup is a subclade of R1b-S21:



    Besides, on a purely theoretical level, how likely is it otherwise for invaders in the illiterate period to have virtually no genetic impact but successfully press their language upon half of Britain? Even back in the day when we had no idea about subclades, the idea seemed outlandish to me.

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    Hi Willyjp. Y crhomosome can be tiny, but it is saying so much.
    What kind of spaniards don't looks like irish ones? Mexicans, bolivians, peruvians? The big mistake of call spanish at south american people... It is the same that call british at sioux, mohicans, cherokis, etc.

    So in 6000 years people can change slightly, if the weather is not the same. In irish people remains older characters that modern iberian people have lost. Ireland is an island. In Spanish we say "aislado" from "isla" it means "someone or something that stays alone". When i ll get 10 post, i'll can put samples of parentesc.

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    Taranis, the word that helps to understand it is "trading".
    I trust more about another map. But i can't put pics yet. the map that you refer shows slow percentages everywhere. Other maps shows percentages of r1b about 90%, in north Iberia and many places on the isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Taranis, the word that helps to understand it is "trading".
    I trust more about another map. But i can't put pics yet. the map that you refer shows slow percentages everywhere. Other maps shows percentages of r1b about 90%, in north Iberia and many places on the isles.
    Ziober, you're apparently unaware that the overall distribution of R1b means very little if you ignore the subclades. These subclades have regional distributions and are evident for historic patterns of spread of Haplogroup R1b. It's very clear if you look at the tree below that R1b did not in fact originate on the Iberian peninsula, and it didn't enter the British Isles either via that route.


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    Haplogroup frequencies tell very little in terms of autosomal. As I said, Basques, who have a lot of R1b, are the less West Asian influenced, and that's what makes them specially so different compared to standard Europeans. Maybe the people who brought the Indo-European languajes were R1b, it's perfectly possible, but there was at least one region where whose influence wasn't that huge despite of the haplogroup frequencies, in both genetic and cultural aspects. The facts are: Basques don't speak an Indo-European languaje, and they represent an extreme gene pole in West Eurasia according to all tests, followed closely by Sardinians (who are pretty much Neolithic genetically speaking).

    Actually, Neolithic + Meso-Paleolithic substratum seems to explain fairly well present European genetics. We just need to go more in detail when new discoveries appear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Ziober, you're apparently unaware that the overall distribution of R1b means very little if you ignore the subclades. These subclades have regional distributions and are evident for historic patterns of spread of Haplogroup R1b. It's very clear if you look at the tree below that R1b did not in fact originate on the Iberian peninsula, and it didn't enter the British Isles either via that route.

    When i said "Iberia is the core of R1b", i'm talking about atlantean reds. This thread is about R1b in iberian peninsula, france and british islands.

    Thanks for the tree Taranis. In wich we can see how R1b linage from Pontic Steppe was divided in two branches. One Germanic, with s21 that you talking about. The map you put, had lower percentages of s21 in the isles, small in england (20-30%) and smallest in celtic nations (less than 5% in Scottland, wales or ireland). And another branch "Italo-Celtic". Right, i agree.... Celts haven't germanic origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    When i said "Iberia is the core of R1b", i'm talking about atlantean reds. This thread is about R1b in iberian peninsula, france and british islands.

    Thanks for the tree Taranis. In wich we can see how R1b linage from Pontic Steppe was divided in two branches. One Germanic, with s21 that you talking about. The map you put, had lower percentages of s21 in the isles, small in england (20-30%) and smallest in celtic nations (less than 5% in Scottland, wales or ireland). And another branch "Italo-Celtic". Right, i agree.... Celts haven't germanic origin.
    You're very welcome. The matter is more complicated than that, however, and I'd advise against preliminary conclusions. As you can see from the tree, P312/S116 is subdivided into several larger subclades. Two of them, L21 and S28 have been known for quite some time:





    Both subclades are generally held to be associated with the historic distribution of the Celtic-speaking peoples (though probably not exclusively - neither can we rule out for instance that S21 was wholly Germanic). For the other two subclades, Z196 appears to be the dominant subclade on the Iberian peninsula, in particular amongst the Basques. If that shows you anything then it's that Y-Haplogroups do not equate 1:1 with what language people speak, either (to pick another example: nobody would guess from Y-DNA that the Hungarians speak Hungarian!), and Knovas brought up a very valid that we shouldn't just focus on Y-DNA but also take autosomal DNA into consideration (which indeed may provide a solution for the riddle of the Basques). The statement "Iberia is the core of R1b" is certainly incorrect in any way.

    As for how R1b entered Western Europe, my opinion based on the latest data is that R1b is probably entered Europe via southern France and from there spread across Western Europe. This gets clear if you take a look at the distribution of L51, which is, if you take another look at the "tree", upstream from the "Italo-Celtic" (S116) and "Germanic" (S21) subclades of R1b (it's also upstream from the immediate "father" clade L11):


  23. #98
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Hi Sparkey. The article of POTBI you talk about is unfinished and saying nothing. The saxon influence is linguistic, not genetic.
    Bodmer has argued in presentations that the lack of full-genome variation in most of England (the red dots) points to a large Anglo-Saxon influence. Besides R1b-S21/U106, we also have previous autosomal studies, particularly Eurogenes, that show that the Southeastern corner of England has genetic affinity to Continental West Germanic countries, which the Celtic fringe lacks (look up the Eurogenes spreadsheets and compare North Atlantic/Nothern European component ratios). I don't think we'd see this pattern if Britain had been isolated through the Migration Period... more likely, we'd see a stronger affinity of the Welsh to the Southeastern English, and a stronger affinity of both to the Northwestern French than the Dutch. Of course, as others have mentioned, there's also an important older substratum that makes the difference between British regions (and all neighboring regions across Europe) somewhat muted, even given migrations.

  24. #99
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    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Ziober, you can check one the latest autosomal maps by the Eurogenes Project. This one is a West Eurasian map: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6549/spawevsca.png

    Includes samples from Europe (White Americans included), Caucasus area, the Middle East, North Africa, Pakistan and North India. The addition of the last two, forces many European groups to overlap, but it's nothing drastic. You can see that a non despreciable amount of Cornish samples slightly pull to Basques, and some appear very close to a few French (likely Breton descent). The genetic proximity with some Germans and Dutch it's also noticeable (see DE & NL ID's).

    Basques and Sardinians are isolated as usual. The main Spaniards cluster in the middle of French, Noth Italians and Basques. Some Iberians deviate towards Basques or the French, some even slightly pull to Sardinia at a similar distance as the Cornish do with Basques. The ES samples clustering Basques are Basques, not Spaniards, and the FR's who are close, are from Gascony.

    I think it's really ilustrative. At a global level (including East Asians, Sub-Saharans, etc.), caucasoid populations tend to overlap a lot. If we could see a map like this at perfect resolution, it would be the best aproximation though.

    Best.

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    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian
    Country: Spain



    I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.

    Respected Taranis, Why don't you put the map of Z196 distribution? Because your source is politically biased i think. So why don't you put the first map wich appears in your source maps page?

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