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Thread: R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

  1. #101
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    Sorry knovas, i can't see that map.

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    The link works for me. If the problem is that you cannot distinguish the samples, just click for zoom. Or you can check it directly from the Eurogenes blog: http://bga101.blogspot.com.es/

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    In that map I only can see words, country initials: ES PT FR... followed by numbers, there aren't colours or images, neither haplogroups. i haven't access to the data.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.
    As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.

    Respected Taranis, Why don't you put the map of Z196 distribution? Because your source is politically biased i think.
    I'd put up a distribution map of R1b-Z196 if there was a (good) map of it. As I mentioned, the markers S21, L21 and S28 were all known or quite a while (as were some subclades of Z196, in particular M153 and M167), while the R1b-Z196 marker has been discovered only relatively later, and as a result, the major studies off which these maps are based did not include them yet. The maps were, by the way, made by the site owner, Maciamo. The reason he didn't make a map of Z196 yet is not because he would be politically biased, but because of a data deficiency.

    So why don't you put the first map wich appears in your source maps page?
    Do you mean the overall distribution map of R1b? You have to keep in mind that this represents the overall percentage of R1b, completely disregarding the various subclades:


  5. #105
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    In that map I only can see words, country initials: ES PT FR... followed by numbers, there aren't colours or images, neither haplogroups. i haven't access to the data.
    The map represents full ancestry of different individuals, which haplogroups cannot provide (they only point to one ancestor, not the thousands of ancestors we have). Every ES, PT, UK, etc., you see, it's a person. Depending on ones ancestral markers, the program assigns a position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.
    Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.

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    [QUOTE=Taranis;396276]As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.

    just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
    I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?


    broioù Y-I Y-R1b I/I+R1b
    BASHKIRED 0,0 47,0 0,0
    SPAGN KASTI-LEON 3,0 64,0 4,5
    SPAGN KASTI-MANCHA 3,5 66,0 5,0
    FRAÑS POETEW-S 4,5 74,5 5,7
    SPAGN EUSKADI 5,5 85,0 6,1
    SPAGN ASTURIAS 4,0 58,5 6,4
    SPAGN KATALONIA 6,0 82,5 6,8
    FRAÑS ALVERNIA 4,5 52,5 7,9
    SPAGN KANTABRIA 6,0 55,0 9,8
    SPAGN GALIKIA 7,0 63,0 10,0
    KEMBRE 9,5 83,5 10,2
    PORTUGAL 6,5 56,0 10,4
    FRAÑS PROVAÑS 7,0 58,0 10,8
    SPAGN VALENKIA 9,5 63,5 13,0
    FRAÑS BREIZH 12,5 80,0 13,5
    SPAGN ANDALUSIA 9,5 58,5 14,0
    IWERZHON 13,0 79,0 14,1
    FRAÑS LYONNAIS ALP 11,0 66,5 14,2
    ITALIA SIKILIA 5,0 30,0 14,3
    FRAÑS ILE-FRANCE 8,5 45,0 15,9
    BRO-SKOSS ALBA 14,0 72,5 16,2
    ITALIA NORZH 11,0 55,0 16,7
    FRAÑS ELSASS 13,5 63,5 17,5
    FRAÑS ARTOIS-FL . 14,0 61,0 18,7
    ITALIA KREIS 10,0 43,0 18,9
    ITALIA SU 7,5 29,0 20,5
    SPAGN ARAGON 17,5 60,5 22,4
    BRO-SAOS 21,0 67,0 23,9
    BELGIA 19,5 61,0 24,2
    TURKI ANATOLIA 5,5 16,0 25,6
    ALAMAGN SU 18,0 48,5 27,1
    SWISS 18,0 48,0 27,3
    ALAMAGN KORNAOG 21,5 47,0 31,4
    BROIOU-ISEL 25,5 53,5 32,3
    GRESSIA SU 11,5 20,5 35,9
    ALAMAGN RETER 23,0 36,0 39,0
    LATVIA 8,0 12,0 40,0
    ALAMAGN NORZH 26,5 36,0 42,4
    SLOVAKIA 17,0 23,0 42,5
    ISLAND 33,0 42,0 44,0
    GRESSIA KRETA 12,0 15,0 44,4
    DANMARK 35,5 44,0 44,7
    AOSTRIA 20,0 23,0 46,5
    KUBROS 8,0 9,0 47,1
    NORWEGIA 25,0 28,0 47,2
    ALBANIA 15,5 16,0 49,2
    POLONIA 16,0 16,0 50,0
    TCHEKIA 24,0 22,0 52,2
    GRESSIA KREIS 14,0 11,5 54,9
    SLOVENIA 33,5 23,5 58,8
    HUNGARIA 25,5 17,0 60,0
    ITALIA SARDINIA 37,0 22,0 62,7
    GRESSIA NORZH 22,5 13,0 63,4
    SWEDEN 41,0 22,0 65,1
    ROMANIA 30,0 16,0 65,2
    MAKEDONIA 28,0 13,5 67,5
    RUSSIA WENN 22,0 10,0 68,8
    ESTONIA 18,5 8,0 69,8
    RUSSIA 15,5 6,0 72,1
    LITUANIA 13,0 5,0 72,2
    BULGARIA 28,0 9,5 74,7
    SERBIA 41,5 7,0 85,6
    UKRAINA 25,0 4,0 86,2
    KROATIA 51,0 8,0 86,4
    FINNLAND 29,0 3,5 89,2
    BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA 53,0 4,0 93,0

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.
    R1b was absent in Western Europe in neolithic? is it a joke?. Bryan Sykes is not the only genetist that found what i said. There are Spencer Wells, who leads the biggest Human genoma project ever. You can see....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHX_MwhN80


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'd put up a distribution map of R1b-Z196 if there was a (good) map of it. As I mentioned, the markers S21, L21 and S28 were all known or quite a while (as were some subclades of Z196, in particular M153 and M167), while the R1b-Z196 marker has been discovered only relatively later, and as a result, the major studies off which these maps are based did not include them yet. The maps were, by the way, made by the site owner, Maciamo. The reason he didn't make a map of Z196 yet is not because he would be politically biased, but because of a data deficiency.



    Do you mean the overall distribution map of R1b? You have to keep in mind that this represents the overall percentage of R1b, completely disregarding the various subclades:

    Yes, the overall percentage it is, but rest S21, L21 and S28 to overall, and obtain that in Western Europe Z196 dominates

  8. #108
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    R1b was absent in Western Europe in neolithic? is it a joke?. Bryan Sykes is not the only genetist that found what i said. There are Spencer Wells, who leads the biggest Human genoma project ever. You can see....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHX_MwhN80
    Sorry, it's not a joke. Your sources are outdated. And yes, that Wells video too: it's from march 2010 - so no matter how old the video itself is, he could impossibly have known of the following papers:

    1) Treilles, southern France (published March 2011):
    Y-Haplogroups G2a and I2a

    2) Derenburg, Germany (published November 2010):
    Y-Haplogroups F* and G2a

    3) Cogols, Catalonia, Spain (published October 2011):
    Y-Haplogroups G2a and E1b-V13

    As you can see, all of this is from peer-reviewed sources, and in none of the ancient DNA samples R1b did show up.

    Yes, the overall percentage it is, but rest S21, L21 and S28 to overall, and obtain that in Western Europe Z196 dominates
    Sorry, no. Z196 does clearly not dominate Western Europe. It's concentrated on the Iberian peninsula. If you subtract the brother clades of Z196 (S28 and L21) from the following map (which shows the parent clade, S116), this gets very evident:



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
    I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?
    What do you suppose these ratios demonstrate? I don't think they really show which groups have the most anciently European ancestry across their genomes... just in their YDNA frequencies. The youth of the primary R1b and I expansions in Europe attests to that... there is too much of a possibility of expansions of certain Y lines within populations to equate Y lines with full genomes here.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    As you can see, all of this is from peer-reviewed sources, and in none of the ancient DNA samples R1b did show up.
    Don't forget R1b actually popping up in a Beaker site, though, which could be called late Neolithic, depending on your semantics. Of course, the fact that the earliest R1b we've found was Beaker... a late Neolithic-origin culture, which flourished in the Copper Age and into the Bronze Age and isn't linked to the earliest farmers... reinforces the idea that R1b postdates the haplogroups linked to the early farmers, especially the Neolithic subclades of G2.

    Also, it's worth mentioning TMRCA calculations of R1b subclades performed by Walsh and Klyosov which both show that the common subclades of R1b in Western and Central Europe didn't even form until near the beginning of the Bronze Age. Much older clades exist in Asia.

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    Who deleted my last post? I think any people don't like to bring the true at most people, in other forums, when an admin delete some post, it explain why. But not here.

    In spain we say "la realidad muerde""tarde o temprano la verdad sale a la luz"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Who deleted my last post? I think any people don't like to bring the true at most people, in other forums, when an admin delete some post, it explain why. But not here.

    In spain we say "la realidad muerde""tarde o temprano la verdad sale a la luz"
    I didn't delete them, I moved them into a separate thread because it was clearly unrelated with the discussion of this thread. It can be found here. I would like to apologize however for the inconvinience this may have caused.

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    Well. i'd put that paint here, because it is related with the line that i was defending. Here we talk about R1b in Atlantic Europe. So in that picture appears some atlantic european men with R1b inside them. The fact is, that when i saw the paint for my first time, i couldn't say who are who.

    - Why?
    - Because most of they come from the same gene pool. That is Iberia (or Celtiberia as we want).



    This is only for Answer to yourself. There are some English and spaniards men. but, Who are Who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    The fact is, that when i saw the paint for my first time, i couldn't say who are who.

    - Why?
    Because it's a painting, by one artist, so they're all in the same style. Try photographs. You'll find that there is overlap between the populations, but the means are definitely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    That is Iberia (or Celtiberia as we want).
    Not the same thing. Iberia also includes some traditionally non-Celtiberian areas, mainly along the fringes. Do you mean that all the Spaniards came from traditionally Celtiberian areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Because it's a painting, by one artist, so they're all in the same style. Try photographs. You'll find that there is overlap between the populations, but the means are definitely different.
    .

    Many artist have a rare and personal style, but this one looks like a photo, so i'll put photos.
    Climate weather change phenotypes, genetic drift in the last two centuries is growing exponentially, there are more and better transportation. is for that more reliable this paint from 4 centurys ago.

    And don't forget the Viking contribution in the islands, which Iberia is almost nil



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Not the same thing. Iberia also includes some traditionally non-Celtiberian areas, mainly along the fringes. Do you mean that all the Spaniards came from traditionally Celtiberian areas?
    Of course, but as many celtiberians, like me, we wants to call Celtiberia at the peninsula. Iberia is neither correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    What do you suppose these ratios demonstrate? I don't think they really show which groups have the most anciently European ancestry across their genomes... just in their YDNA frequencies. The youth of the primary R1b and I expansions in Europe attests to that... there is too much of a possibility of expansions of certain Y lines within populations to equate Y lines with full genomes here.
    I is for "matter of reflexion": I find these Indo-European very smart and powerful males indeed!!! But I have no agenda, I would be very glad to be a "pure" Indo-European, as 'Celt' I am - and I do not discard the I-E theory for R1b: perhaps we need to put it earlier? but I find nevertheless you seam very secure of your thoughts...
    I know this is a compilation of different ligneages, but very close one bees one together! I never said they did not have had different stories...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Many artist have a rare and personal style, but this one looks like a photo, so i'll put photos.
    Check out our Guess the Ethnicity forum, it may be the place you want to post that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    And don't forget the Viking contribution in the islands, which Iberia is almost nil
    ...

    The Vikings were active quite a long time before that painting.

    Besides, don't you think the Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and Franks had an impact on the Iberian population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.
    I'm sorry I didn't see that post earlier: I don't want to drag this discussion too far away from the topic, but you're obviously right. The ancient Celtiberian language was a Celtic language, thus making it a relative of modern Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Breton and Welsh. Although it should be added that Celtiberian was not particularly similar to those modern languages - it was a Continental Celtic language, in many ways more similar to Latin or Classical Greek (it's possible that the similarity between the old Celtic languages and Latin probably greatly helped in the quick adoption of Latin). The Celtic language family is one branch of the Indo-European languages, and no matter what scenario of their origin you favour, they originated outside of Western Europe: the more accepted Kurgan hypothesis suggests that they evolved in the latest Neolithic / early Bronze Age in the Pontic-Caspian region. The more contested Anatolian hypothesis (which also has a few adherents on this board), in contrast, suggests that they evolved in Anatolia and spread into Europe with the advent of agriculture. Additionally, it should be pointed out that the Celtiberians were one out of many ethnic groups on the ancient Iberian peninsula that were speaking a Celtic (or more broadly, Indo-European) language. And as you pointed out, there were obviously also non-Indo-European languages spoken on the Iberian peninsula one of them (Basque) which survives to this day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The Vikings were active quite a long time before that painting.
    I knew this long time ago!!, i didn't said this about men of the paint. Wich looks a moderate rutilism in most of them, if not all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Besides, don't you think the Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and Franks had an impact on the Iberian population?
    as far as I know, Visigodos (goths) were "the rulers" and don't cross with folks so much. About others those you mention i don't know so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Check out our Guess the Ethnicity forum, it may be the place you want to post that sort of thing.
    "divide et vinces" Julio Cesar.

    I can't divide my arguments in two subforums, even one of these without activity. In other hand, i don't like to put here photos of people without permission. So i'll put only few pics of a friend of mine. With those photos, i'll try to explain how too much people, have a wrong idea about spaniard look, or the "black haired" spaniards.

    In most lighting conditions, hundreds of thousands spaniards get a hair colour like next sample:





    But, when the sunshine almost horizontally pass through the hair (few times). scattered light shows...



    Last edited by Ziober; 26-06-12 at 19:20. Reason: gramaticaly fault "hundreds vs hundred)

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    Ethnic group
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    Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn)
    Why do you keep posting this? This has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion of this thread.

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    We have been talking about how similar or not are spaniards vs british & irish. Sparkey ask to me for photos. I can not put videos? This video show the wrong idea about blackhaired spaniards. who want to see, can do it. is hosted on another server and will not collapse Eupedia.

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    sparkey said that, for posting pictures, it's better to use this thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forumdi...-the-Ethnicity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn):

    even if every thing is linked in Man (and other problems too, very often) - as do Taranis I find that this last discussion concerns more a classical anthropologic one - just an answer: under some lightings even a black haired Asiat or negroid African could show some reddish hues: you prove only if you do it that some dark haired european have not true black hue - nothing new, there are a lot of variants in homozygotic and more in heterizygotic human people colours from the almost white blond to the very jet dark colour... but here the topic is primarily "Y-R1b"!
    no offense!

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    Moesan, for say that you said. Better read something before, about the European Phenotypes, acording to the haplogroups. Later, you could recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier

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