R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

[zanipolo]

Across the Atlantic? That's certainly nonsense. :startled:

By the way, it is also by no means clear if the Tartessians were really Celtic. What I mean is this: yes, John Koch of the university of Cardiff proposed that the "Tartessian" language may have been Celtic, but this language is known from the Algarve. The civilization and culture of Tartessos, however, was located in the Guadalquivir region in Andalusia. It is explained here.



The Phoenicians (or, more accurately, the Carthaginians) conquered the areas of modern-day Andalusia.

across the atlantic is a term used from iberia to britain without landing on french soil.

here is more on phoenicians, clearly before they became cartagians
http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html


below is the site where in 2008 they found undisturbed phoencian urn
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padstow

[/URL]

 

[JFWR]

Wrong. Basque is a pre-indoeuropean language. The R1b people spoke indo-european languages who split into the Germanic, Celtic, Latin languages

71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).

 

[Ziober]

This is impossible. Tartessos still existed in the time of Herodotus, who lived in the 5th century BC. If there was a seaquake that occured in later times, it would have been recorded by ancient Greek authors. Sorry, but I'm under the impression you are just making this up to have a specious pretense to place the origin of the Celts in southwestern Iberia.

By the way, in my opinion it is more likely that the city of Tartessos was destroyed by the Phoenicians, who are well-known to have occupied the south of Iberia, and who founded cities like Cadiz, Malaga and Cartagena.

Taranis, the tartessos which you are talking about is only the decaying remains of a civilization comparable to greek one. Tartessos is a geographic nomenclature, not cultural at all.

As i said, there was at least 3 branches divided from the finish of Atlantis. One of those, remained near to the colapse, another one exploring by navy the west facade of Iberia (all coast of actual Portugal) and settlement that places: Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, British isles...etc. The last of those should be which go to interior, forming the Vetton clan as others clans.

Taramis, i can see how for you, all cultural transitions was made by kill peoples (saxons killing britons, phoenicians killing Tartessos... oh my God!!!) I can't, i can't, i can't believe that.

As well say Zanipolo, phoenicians found Gadir, because tartessians were pacifics, generous and rich peoples, Very good thing for trading. Humanity is not so worst like you and others like you want to show it.

Facts about ancient Tartessos from 3.000 years ago :

There are too writes about Tartessos from Greeks, romans, asirians...

http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/20...s-estelas-tartesicas-halladas-en-el-campo.php


http://georgeosdiazmontexano.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/laciudadmasantiguadeeuropa.pdf

 

[Ziober]

71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).

As far as i know, basques are near to 90% r1b.

 

[Knovas]

71 percent of Basque are R1b. Not all members of R1b retained their Indo-European languages, and not all Indo-European language are related to R1b (Germanic peoples are heavily associated with I).

Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

 

[Taranis]

Taranis, the tartessos which you are talking about is only the decaying remains of a civilization comparable to greek one. Tartessos is a geographic nomenclature, not cultural at all.

You're wrong. To the ancient Greeks, Tartessos was a kingdom or city state (or possibly both). Archaeologists associated the so-called "Orientalizing Culture" (called "orientalizing" due to the visible cultural influence from the Phoenicians) of the early iron age of Andalusia with Tartessos.

As i said, there was at least 3 branches divided from the finish of Atlantis. One of those, remained near to the colapse, another one exploring by navy the west facade of Iberia (all coast of actual Portugal) and settlement that places: Portugal, Galicia, Asturias, British isles...etc. The last of those should be which go to interior, forming the Vetton clan as others clans.

Ziober, I'm giving you a very good advice: this is not a place for dispersing fantasy stories about your "Atlantean" racial vision because that's basically, through the course of this thread, what you're trying to tell us. And my patience as a moderator for such is about to be spent.

What I have to add that I do not understand is this: Spanish history is as amazing and as fascinating as it is in reality. There is no need to spin fancy tales about an ahistorical, mythical 'Atlantean' past.

Taramis, i can see how for you, all cultural transitions was made by kill peoples (saxons killing britons, phoenicians killing Tartessos... oh my God!!!) I can't, i can't, i can't believe that.

Did Alexander the Great conquer the Achaemenid Empire through peace and harmony? Did the Romans conquer the entire Mediterranean through peace and harmony? Did the Umayyad Caliphate conquer Iberia through peace and harmony? Obviously not.

As for Tartessos, this should be obvious:

- Herodotus mentions the city of Tartessos as existing in the 5th century BC.

- By the early 3rd century BC, the Carthaginians had conquered the south of Iberia.

- When the Romans seized these areas of Spain (at the end of the Second Punic War), there is no more mentioning of a city of Tartessos, however the Turdetani people are mentioned by various authors as descendants of the Tartessians. The only conclusion is that the city/kingdom of Tartessos was destroyed by the Carthaginians in the intermediate period.

As well say Zanipolo, phoenicians found Gadir, because tartessians were pacifics, generous and rich peoples, Very good thing for trading. Humanity is not so worst like you and others like you want to show it.

The Phoenicians (and their heirs, the Carthaginians) were a great civilization with great achievements (especially regarding seafaring and engineering), but they were no pacifists as you wish to portray them as. Gadir was founded as a trade town, yes, but in later history the Carthaginians took a more aggressive and expansionist stance. To pick a particularly gruesome example, Hamilcar Barca, the father of Hannibal Barca, was responsible for the execution of 40,000 mercenaries who had rebelled against Carthage.

Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

Knovas, you're generally right, but, if you consider the TMRCAs and the distributions of certain specific subclades Haplogroup, they very well can be associated with (individual) Indo-European-speaking groups in later history despite the fact that they all represent surviving Paleolithic lineages. Haplogroup I as a whole is Paleolithic, but individual subclades became Indo-European at a later point of history. The most obvious example for this would be Haplogroup I1, which was later expanded by the Germanic migrations. Sparkey also suggested that it was possible to narrow things even further down, for instance that I1-Z58 (in the British context) can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons whereas I1-L22 is associated with the Vikings. What we should not underestimate in this context (and, the same, I presume, applies for the dominance of R1b amongst the Basque population), is that we must not underestimate the role of founder effects, especially with Y-DNA.

But, you are absolutely correct that this doesn't change the fact that the original Paleolithic bearers of Haplogroup I (or their Neolithic descendants, for that matter) were obviously no speakers of Indo-European languages.

 

[zanipolo]

what is required is to first know the phoenician gene pool and then see its influence in Spain. In 2008 NATGEO did this survey on phoenicians

There were 2 main genotypes in Ancient Phoenicia.

J (Y-DNA) J1 proto-Semites that semitized the coastal natives & J2 Mesopotamians agriculturalists who moved into the inland regions before the J1 proto-Semites.

The Coasts are still till this day dominated by E1b1b an overall 32% of Lebanese are E1b1b (highest subclade). J is an overall Lebanese gene, while E1b1b & T are exclusive coastal genes.

Any Phoenician genetic impact has to be mainly connected with the coastal older Neolitihic offset of E1b1b & T the shared an 8:1 ratio, thats also exists in Greece in the same ratio which easily shows that simply all East Med coast dwellers (E1b1b & T) originated from the same group .

E1b1b came from somali's and T from west asian caspian sea area. they both occupied the levant coast.

Origin of the Med Sea E1b1b-T offset (The most important compononent of the Phoenician DNA)

Somalians--------- T = 10% E1b1b =81%-------> (ancestors)

Lebanese---------- T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Greeks-------------T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Sicilains----------- T = 2.5% E1b1b = 20%


To track the Phoenican genetic impact you have to take the E1b1b + T & the J2.

While E1b1b and T was coastl for the phoenicians , the J1 and J2 became in majority the phoenicians who settled in the new colonies in the Med. In the decline, the eastern phoenicians died out and the western phoenicians became the carthagians.
As I stated the markers in the levant ( phoenician) in the bronze age, are the same in southern Spain and are the same in wales and cornwall

granted, that NATGEO use in majority only a 12 markers system because they care only for mass of people instead of individuals

 

[zanipolo]

Haplogroup I as whole represents a Paleolithic remmant in Europe. So the argument for R1b is also valid for haplogroup I: they didn't retain their pre-indoEuropean language/languages, that simple. Basques did despite the fact they have the highest R1b percent, but modern frequencies tells us very little. Haplogroups (specially Y-DNA) are very easy to replace in a few generations.

I personally wouldn't link any Indo-European language with Haplogroup I for obvious reasons.

link below is a bit old , but still applies as the markers have not mutated

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707621521

 

[Ziober]

Estoy teniendo problemas para expresarme en inglés, así que si me disculpan intentaré explicarme en castellano.

Yo en ningún momento he hablado de "una raza atlante". Solo he recopilado indicios conexos, de forma multidisciplinar, ya sean culturales, genéticos, geográficos etc, para poder unir las piezas del puzzle.

Se están encontrando en España varias oppida con diseño arquitectónico igual al descrito por Platón referiéndose a Atlantis. La vasija que aparece en mi avatar, encontrada en Jaén, presenta dibujos que representan varias oppida con el mismo diseño. Círculos concéntricos, alternando tierra-agua, con un corredor radial, que parte desde el centro de la oppidum hasta un punto en el perímetro de la misma. Una de las oppida encontradas ya esta datada en el Calcolítico, por lo que guarda relación temporal, para poder entender transformaciones en la genética poblacional y en la cultura de esas gentes y el acervo que pudieron dejar en las gentes de Tartessos (como área geográfica):

http://www.tartessos.info/html2/Atlantis-Jaen.pdf
http://georgeosdiazmontexano.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/laciudadmasantiguadeeuropa.pdf

Si partimos de que en las leyendas o mitos, no hay nada de realidad. Deberíamos invalidar muchos hechos historicos comprobados. Pero no es así. Lo mismo que en La Odisea hay elementos reales mezclados con elementos fantasticos, o en el libro de Las Siete Invasiones de Irlanda. Narraciones con elementos fantásticos, podrían ser como un film histórico actual con FX y música, que son elementos de atracción/motivación, para acercar los hechos de forma amena a un "público general", público que en su día a día quizás no muestre interés por hechos históricos y no se preocupan en leer acerca de ellos. Pero que si se adornan adquieren interés.

A pesar de esto, la descripción geofísica que hace Platón de Atlantis no presenta elementos fantásticos. Y las ciudades que se están encontrando en España son tan reales como las piedras. Yo no soy responsable de la imaginación de la gente que inventa fantasías acerca de Atlantis. Yo hablo de un Atlantis histórico.

 

[sparkey]

Estoy teniendo problemas para expresarme en inglés, así que si me disculpan intentaré explicarme en castellano.

You could try passing your text through Google translate before you post, because that's what most of us will be doing with your Spanish posts, anyway.

A pesar de esto, la descripción geofísica que hace Platón de Atlantis no presenta elementos fantásticos. Y las ciudades que se están encontrando en España son tan reales como las piedras. Yo no soy responsable de la imaginación de la gente que inventa fantasías acerca de Atlantis. Yo hablo de un Atlantis histórico.

Jeez, you're trying to convince us of your hypothesis, and you bring up "un Atlantis histórico"? You're making it sound like the existence of such a thing ties strongly to the evidence for your hypothesis. It would be like if I brought up Thule to make a point about the properties of the proto-Germanic population.

 

[MOESAN]

what is required is to first know the phoenician gene pool and then see its influence in Spain. In 2008 NATGEO did this survey on phoenicians

There were 2 main genotypes in Ancient Phoenicia.

J (Y-DNA) J1 proto-Semites that semitized the coastal natives & J2 Mesopotamians agriculturalists who moved into the inland regions before the J1 proto-Semites.

The Coasts are still till this day dominated by E1b1b an overall 32% of Lebanese are E1b1b (highest subclade). J is an overall Lebanese gene, while E1b1b & T are exclusive coastal genes.

Any Phoenician genetic impact has to be mainly connected with the coastal older Neolitihic offset of E1b1b & T the shared an 8:1 ratio, thats also exists in Greece in the same ratio which easily shows that simply all East Med coast dwellers (E1b1b & T) originated from the same group .

E1b1b came from somali's and T from west asian caspian sea area. they both occupied the levant coast.

Origin of the Med Sea E1b1b-T offset (The most important compononent of the Phoenician DNA)

Somalians--------- T = 10% E1b1b =81%-------> (ancestors)

Lebanese---------- T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Greeks-------------T = 3% E1b1b = 25%

Sicilains----------- T = 2.5% E1b1b = 20%


To track the Phoenican genetic impact you have to take the E1b1b + T & the J2.

While E1b1b and T was coastl for the phoenicians , the J1 and J2 became in majority the phoenicians who settled in the new colonies in the Med. In the decline, the eastern phoenicians died out and the western phoenicians became the carthagians.
As I stated the markers in the levant ( phoenician) in the bronze age, are the same in southern Spain and are the same in wales and cornwall

granted, that NATGEO use in majority only a 12 markers system because they care only for mass of people instead of individuals

Sorry, but I do not understand very well what you are trying to prove, here (maybe some word escaped to my understanding; your premices seam right, about an ancient coastal presence of E1b1 in Lebanon (and surely on the Eastern Mediterranean coastlands), OK;
but what is the time link between first Neolithic times and the Phoenician expansion to Western Mediterranea? Are you thinking that the Y-E1b1 found in old enough Neolitihic times in South-Eastern Iberia are of Phoenician origin? I do link the E1b1 of present day inland Europe to the first Neolithic people that put their foot in N-Greece and Balkans at the sunrise of Agriculture: no link in my mind with phoenician seafarers even if the first origin was almost maritime and western for Near Eastern criteria...
your ratio E1b1/T is interesting (I 'll try to check about the origin of T) but maybe a ratio or more than one about E1/J1/J2 could be interesting to try to separate diverses colonisations? subclades SNPs would be more accurate yet.
Waiting some precision...
PS: Somalian origin? Is that proved? if T is of caspian region origin, I see better a Near Eastern-South-West Asia origin for Y-E1b? Somalia = one of the terminal regions?

 

[zanipolo]

Sorry, but I do not understand very well what you are trying to prove, here (maybe some word escaped to my understanding; your premices seam right, about an ancient coastal presence of E1b1 in Lebanon (and surely on the Eastern Mediterranean coastlands), OK;
but what is the time link between first Neolithic times and the Phoenician expansion to Western Mediterranea? Are you thinking that the Y-E1b1 found in old enough Neolitihic times in South-Eastern Iberia are of Phoenician origin? I do link the E1b1 of present day inland Europe to the first Neolithic people that put their foot in N-Greece and Balkans at the sunrise of Agriculture: no link in my mind with phoenician seafarers even if the first origin was almost maritime and western for Near Eastern criteria...
your ratio E1b1/T is interesting (I 'll try to check about the origin of T) but maybe a ratio or more than one about E1/J1/J2 could be interesting to try to separate diverses colonisations? subclades SNPs would be more accurate yet.
Waiting some precision...
PS: Somalian origin? Is that proved? if T is of caspian region origin, I see better a Near Eastern-South-West Asia origin for Y-E1b? Somalia = one of the terminal regions?

What I am saying is that the link between iberia and british isles , for migration and commerce was established at the time by the phoenicians and/or with the armorica veneti via the phoenicians.
Caldey island in southern wales had these "levant" people arriving from the bronze age, in the levant and constantinople areas, even as late as the 13th century. northern cornwall and devon are the same position.
Bascially this bay (inland sea) , which bristol IIRC is the main port , has plenty of these finds, pottery, script and even dna which I refer to which matches identically with dna in iberia, which also matches dna in the levant.

I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

 

[razyn]

I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

It's a sort of plausible history, for a small fraction of the Y-DNA of that part of SW Britain. But it isn't really established that the said fraction came from Iberia to the Isles, as opposed to the opposite; or perhaps it went to both places from Morbihan; or to all three places from elsewhere (much farther east, and perhaps southeast). That whole "Celtic from the west" thing works OK if one limits the discussion to a certain interesting slice of history, but the Y-DNA doesn't have such brackets around it. Looking just at the phylogeny, it doesn't appear to originate in Iberia (where some subclades of it are now concentrated), and then spread to the rest of NW Europe. That model works fairly well for certain forms of Bell Beaker tableware.

I really need to update all that Z196 stuff, it's gotten obsolete in the last few months. It's still there, but DF27 has replaced it in the hierarchy. And M153 (to name just one popular Iberian subclade of DF27) is about seven steps downstream. DF27 itself is all over Europe, at least from Ukraine to Iberia; and it is much better documented on the Atlantic (northern) side of Europe than the Mediterranean side -- though that may just reflect who gets tested first, for newly discovered SNPs.

Here's one view of what I'm talking about. DF27 (with its numerous subclades) occupies about the bottom three inches of this chart. On one side below Z196, it turns predominantly Iberian at the Z278 level. On the other side of Z196, part of L176.2 is Iberian. DF27 has other branches that are Scandinavian, Dutch, British, etc. This doesn't remotely look like a tree that begins in Iberia (either as an LGM refuge from the ice, or as a pottery-trading enclave in Portugal) and spreads its branches to all the other areas in which its leaves are now found.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There is much still to be learned. But while learning it, we don't have to begin with the same assumptions we held before these patterns of branching were known. There will be further refinements of our picture, over the next few years -- especially from ancient Y-DNA, of which we still have very little. None of that, so far, is Ice Age (or even Copper Age) Iberian R1b1a2, etc. The latter, at least, may well be found -- and would be a welcome addition to the spotty record we have of R1b in prehistoric Europe. Until it is, some of this "where it came from" rhetoric (out of Australia) seems a little empty (here in Virginia).

But I very much agree that connections between the Bristol Channel and Iberia are important, are several thousand years old, and seem still to be detectable in certain genes of those respective populations.

 

[zanipolo]

It's a sort of plausible history, for a small fraction of the Y-DNA of that part of SW Britain. But it isn't really established that the said fraction came from Iberia to the Isles, as opposed to the opposite; or perhaps it went to both places from Morbihan; or to all three places from elsewhere (much farther east, and perhaps southeast). That whole "Celtic from the west" thing works OK if one limits the discussion to a certain interesting slice of history, but the Y-DNA doesn't have such brackets around it. Looking just at the phylogeny, it doesn't appear to originate in Iberia (where some subclades of it are now concentrated), and then spread to the rest of NW Europe. That model works fairly well for certain forms of Bell Beaker tableware.

I really need to update all that Z196 stuff, it's gotten obsolete in the last few months. It's still there, but DF27 has replaced it in the hierarchy. And M153 (to name just one popular Iberian subclade of DF27) is about seven steps downstream. DF27 itself is all over Europe, at least from Ukraine to Iberia; and it is much better documented on the Atlantic (northern) side of Europe than the Mediterranean side -- though that may just reflect who gets tested first, for newly discovered SNPs.

Here's one view of what I'm talking about. DF27 (with its numerous subclades) occupies about the bottom three inches of this chart. On one side below Z196, it turns predominantly Iberian at the Z278 level. On the other side of Z196, part of L176.2 is Iberian. DF27 has other branches that are Scandinavian, Dutch, British, etc. This doesn't remotely look like a tree that begins in Iberia (either as an LGM refuge from the ice, or as a pottery-trading enclave in Portugal) and spreads its branches to all the other areas in which its leaves are now found.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520

There is much still to be learned. But while learning it, we don't have to begin with the same assumptions we held before these patterns of branching were known. There will be further refinements of our picture, over the next few years -- especially from ancient Y-DNA, of which we still have very little. None of that, so far, is Ice Age (or even Copper Age) Iberian R1b1a2, etc. The latter, at least, may well be found -- and would be a welcome addition to the spotty record we have of R1b in prehistoric Europe. Until it is, some of this "where it came from" rhetoric (out of Australia) seems a little empty (here in Virginia).

But I very much agree that connections between the Bristol Channel and Iberia are important, are several thousand years old, and seem still to be detectable in certain genes of those respective populations.

Just to finish this
Cobh , in the entrance to cork ireland was known as the last stop for phoenician traders before making their return journey.
The story is that many iberian lusitani people who came with the phoenicians , stayed at Cobh

 

[Ziober]

Jeez, you're trying to convince us of your hypothesis, and you bring up "un Atlantis histórico"? You're making it sound like the existence of such a thing ties strongly to the evidence for your hypothesis. It would be like if I brought up Thule to make a point about the properties of the proto-Germanic population.

Yo no he establecido ninguna hipótesis, solo he puesto indicios, para el que quiera investigar. Y no hay que descartar nada a priori. No sé si tiene relación Atlantis con la cultura celta. Pero lo que sí es cierto es que en España se estan descubriendo oppida con el diseño arquitectónico descrito por platón. La única hipótesis que sí sostengo es que la población de las islas britanicas desciende de población ibérica en cerca del 70%.

No soy un alucinado fantasioso en busca de Atlantis, soy Licenciado en Ciencias.

 

[MOESAN]

What I am saying is that the link between iberia and british isles , for migration and commerce was established at the time by the phoenicians and/or with the armorica veneti via the phoenicians.
Caldey island in southern wales had these "levant" people arriving from the bronze age, in the levant and constantinople areas, even as late as the 13th century. northern cornwall and devon are the same position.
Bascially this bay (inland sea) , which bristol IIRC is the main port , has plenty of these finds, pottery, script and even dna which I refer to which matches identically with dna in iberia, which also matches dna in the levant.

I just gave you a history of the beginnings of the southwest british dna and where it came from.

well:
-- I do not consider anyway that the %s of E1b1+T we find in some countries could be linked to the only Phoenician presence (nor Carthagian) - Even in Iberia, Y-E1b1 presence seams very too old to be linked to them only (but maybe have you new surveys with detailed downstream HGs of this Y-E1b1?)-
-- considering this topic, I do not see very well what is the matter with Phoenicians whose DNA, contrary to what I believe understanding from you, is almost absent or very low in Brittain and Ireland, and surely in the other countries involved in this discussion -
-- perhaps the Y-E1b1 of N-E Wales (founder effect of some colonisers?) has something to do with Phoenician Y-DNA, I can not discuss it without detailed element by ma hand - It would be surprising because of the northern position of this region as opposed to S-Wales where Y-E1b1 w(hatever the geogrpahic origin) is very scarce -
-- important contacts by sea and by land existed between Iberia ha the Isles well before the historical Phoenicians was mentioned (firts Neolithic "farmers", Megaliths builders), or we have to consider that the Megaliths builders was Phoenicians??? (it is possible that they came from a nearby region, by the fact, I do not know)
-- on another hand I find interesting the precisions of Razyn about the Y-R1b new discovered SNPs distributions, just I say that:
eveytime I read the post LGM recovering of lands started in Iberia: it is very wrong: the most of the Paleolithic populaton was in Aquitain, not Iberia, even if Cantabrica and Pyreneas was well settled, whatever the conclusions we take from that... the post LGM surely saw tribes or small clans expanding step by step northwards and eastwards, with more than a nucleus of growing population, more than an stop and more than a re-expansion -
sorry for my frenglish

 

[bicicleur 2]

I wonder what subclade of r1b is Southern Spain, according to the map there is more than 50 % r1b in Southern Spain, but if you add up all main subclades of L51, it is much less
Is there another subclade of L51, or are they descending from another branch of r1b?
As far as I know, L23 is in the Balkans and Southern Italy, but not in Spain.

 

[PortuBasq]

Great to have a fellow Galician (or Norte Portugal) Celt schooling the haters still angry Romans and Muslims didn't come in and overwhelm our R1b L21 Ancestros. Remember even Vascones and Basque still can't believe we out competed for their women in bed and baby making!!! ......and we brought more Rh-Negatives to Basque Country than we ever took away. The Spanish Falcata Sword was perfected by R1b L21 Celts. Whose own Bronze and Iron Smelting were legendary. As with the Standing Stones even the Romans allowed to stand as a tribute to Galician Celts to mine and fabricate into many Bronze and Iron Age Tools.

Where Rome offered Tribute to the Galician Warriors by building the Tower of Hercules Lighthouse today. King Breogan is celebrated at 'A Coruna' too. The magnificent Bronze Sculpture of Hercules was uncovered the Latins/Romans spoke much about their respect for the Celtic Warriors. Warriors Romans said were amazing as they would meet in the Battlefield riding their Advanced Iron Age Chariots into battle. The Galicians as most Celtic Armies..... would put Warriors on their War Chariots, catch them on fire for Burial.

Look at all the Hill Forts found in the Iberian Peninsula and most of all remember those ancient Iberian Tribes got out competed by more virile R1b L21 Males. Remember R1b L21 make up over 50% of the Iberian Peninsula Today and no other haplogroup can say that today. I am proof that R1b Man Totally PWNS..... the bedroom when it when it comes to having babies and extending their Male Y Chromosome Genetics. Basque Country for all its isolated Language and Culture is still 90% R1b L21 Celts. Like Galicia and Norte Portugal still are today as well. Now what did the Romans do about Galicians speaking their own Celtic Language? Well they didn't try to kill it and instead promoted Galician as the Celtic derived Language of these R1b L21 People! ;-P: ....who also had high percentages of Rh-Negative Blood Factor and Type! and between interesting to see that you share the same mtDNA Haplogroup as me too. Now if you were also Rh-Negative like my Basque Marker tells me I am, we could be twins! .....especially of you were Towhead growing up grew darker with age and Blue, Green or Hazel Eyes to go with your Galician Celtic Ethnic Identity!

 

[Carlos]

^^

Tell me what it takes to go also to buy it.