R1b in Iberian Peninsula, France and the British Islands

[Taranis]

Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn)

Why do you keep posting this? This has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion of this thread.

 

[Ziober]

We have been talking about how similar or not are spaniards vs british & irish. Sparkey ask to me for photos. I can not put videos? This video show the wrong idea about blackhaired spaniards. who want to see, can do it. is hosted on another server and will not collapse Eupedia.

 

[Knovas]

sparkey said that, for posting pictures, it's better to use this thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?221-Guess-the-Ethnicity

 

[MOESAN]

Another sample. In this video, Loquillo (the tallest man) looks like blackhaired to second minute. after this... Her hair looks red!! (dark auburn):

even if every thing is linked in Man (and other problems too, very often) - as do Taranis I find that this last discussion concerns more a classical anthropologic one - just an answer: under some lightings even a black haired Asiat or negroid African could show some reddish hues: you prove only if you do it that some dark haired european have not true black hue - nothing new, there are a lot of variants in homozygotic and more in heterizygotic human people colours from the almost white blond to the very jet dark colour... but here the topic is primarily "Y-R1b"!
no offense!

 

[Ziober]

Moesan, for say that you said. Better read something before, about the European Phenotypes, acording to the haplogroups. Later, you could recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier

 

[Taranis]

Moesan, for say that you said. Better read something before, about the European Phenotypes, acording to the haplogroups. Later, you could recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier

Ziober, sorry but this really doesn't make sense. The point is that the Y-Haplogroup tells you absolutely nothing about the phenotypical appearance of a person. Let's take some very geographically extreme examples in terms of carriers of R1b to visualize this:

Welsh (~85% R1b):

Hausa (~40% R1b):

Bashkirs (~47% R1b):

How do you recognize the phenotype of an R1b carrier? You don't, because Y-DNA has no effect on the phenotype. Autosomal DNA is what determines the phenotype.

 

[Knovas]

People is really confused when start learning genetics. Taranis is right Ziober, I told you before: Haplogroups trace back to ONE ancestor who lived thousands of years ago. It doesn't reflect anything, you must take into account ALL ancestors (autosomal test).

 

[GloomyGonzales]

Bashkirs (~47% R1b):

Of these guys only the one in the middle is bashkir the rest are just russians dressed in bashkir traditional clothes. Bashkirs have very clear asiatic mongoloid traits.

Below pictures of Bashkirs from Gaina tribe (those famous bashkirs with R1b-U152)

 

[Ziober]

Ziober, sorry but this really doesn't make sense. The point is that the Y-Haplogroup tells you absolutely nothing about the phenotypical appearance of a person. Let's take some very geographically extreme examples in terms of carriers of R1b to visualize this:

We are talking about R1b in Atlantic Europe. Taranis, we are seeing how you are trying to distract by the meanings of some words. But as i said, here we are talking about atlantic R1b, That is one branch leaving R1b1a2a1a1b (if the tree is correct).

Any way, i have been talking how most of british and irish people cames from iberia, and r1b is the genetic marker. I don't want to enter in labyrinths.

 

[Taranis]

We are talking about R1b in Atlantic Europe. Taranis, we are seeing how you are trying to distract by the meanings of some words. But as i said, here we are talking about atlantic R1b, That is one branch leaving R1b1a2a1a1b.

I am not distracting from anything. I've merely pointed out that Y-chromosomal DNA has no effect on the phenotype, and to visualize this I picked geographically extreme examples of populations which are known bearers of R1b. It does not matter if you are talking about R1b as a whole, or subclades of R1b in the Atlantic region. The statement remains the same.

 

[Ziober]

Egyptian mummies predate the Greeks. Can you read?

Parts of Eastern Europe lack R1b completely. I would believe a dual migration of R1b from Anatolia through the Caucuses, as well from Northern Africa, through the Iberian Peninsula. As for the statement, which you appear to make with hostility, that Iberian and English R1b is the same - we agree upon. The consideration should be made as to the origin of the haplogroup. It's known that Northern Africa was light skinned, and and only became mixed with slaves when Egyptian civilization collapsed.

I think so.

 

[Ziober]

I am not distracting from anything. I've merely pointed out that Y-chromosomal DNA has no effect on the phenotype, and to visualize this I picked geographically extreme examples of populations which are known bearers of R1b. It does not matter if you are talking about R1b as a whole, or subclades of R1b in the Atlantic region. The statement remains the same.

If you think that R1b has no effect on the phenotype, i have nothing to tell you...

 

[Taranis]

If you think that R1b has no effect on the phenotype, i have nothing to tell you...

Well, remember that R1b is an Y-Haplogroup. This means we are only talking about DNA on the Y-chromosome. Women have no Y-chromosome. If there was some phenotypical feature that was defined by the Y-chromosome, then obviously women wouldn't have it.

 

[Ziober]

Well, remember that R1b is an Y-Haplogroup. This means we are only talking about DNA on the Y-chromosome. Women have no Y-chromosome. If there was some phenotypical feature that was defined by the Y-chromosome, then obviously women wouldn't have it.

I agree it's only Y-crhomosome, but r1b has relationship with alleles carried on different chromosomes in the same individual wich brings to it phenotypics characters.

 

[Knovas]

Another example are African American males. You can find thousands of them carrying the most common R1b branches in Europe, and they look no way European. Haplogroups are helpful to trace ancient migrations, but they cannot tell about the full inheritance (hence, no phenotypical information could be extracted).

 

[MOESAN]

Shit! I lost the post I had written with all my hart (and my brain) to support the poor Ziober -
I 'll do it again tomorrow, just I say: your logic, Knovas and Taranis, appears to me basic and somewhat distorded about chromosoms (Y, autosomals) and mt DNA links...

 

[MOESAN]

"my heart" (gast ar hast! sorry)

Knovas and Taranis, you are right at first sight; it is true that mt DNA HGs, Y DNA HGs and autosomal genes are not linked one together by themselves, being on different chromosomes (Y, autosomals) or in cells (mt) - even for autosomals, they are dispersed on a lot of chromosomes, so for an indiviual, no link OK - but there is a statistical link (even if elastic) between all these genes at a collective level -

the only ways that a previous distributions of all these genes could drastically change in a population are:
hazard drift in a small population (founder effect), the case of ancient small families or tribes : it can have a strong result on Y-DNA, very less on the autosomals as a whole – less effect in today big populations – this is well shown by some african tribes and Bashkirs, I think -
social-political drift linked to male elites taking wives outside of their ethny leading to an over-representation of some Y-HGs : it seams it could have played a heavy enough role in « barbarians » times, more than today, but in what proportions ? This could be too a part of the explanation for Africans Y-R1b and Bashkirs, joined to the hazard cause of drift ? -
natural environmental selection (pressure) : it can not change all the genome and if it played surely an evident role at the sunrise of modern humanity it does not modify the external phenotypical genes to much in the present times (i do not expect a too big evolution about skin colour in future, by instance, but by « racial » crossings, and partially, by social classes selection – we know that Cro-Magnon was not the better equipped type for survive in cold climate and nevertheless they took the advantage on better fitted Neanderthals, according to scientists, so adaptation capacity by intelligence is not too new for Man -
about Y-DNA providing advantages or disadvantages, I wait knowing more (not only newly written papers « scooplike ») – these effect could affect the Y-DNA pool distribution more than the external phenotypes


it is true that in South Western Europe, the autosomals could have been changed at a noticeable level by a constant flow of genes by females of the Mediterranean shores (some surveys, outdated maybe, said that) between final Paleo and Neolithic , flow that could be very difficult to discover by archeology: some evolution of metric means on Mesolithic skeletons that show considerable gracilization and oter modifications of face and body could be the result of South and Eastern demic influences (contacts) upon the previous cromagnoid stock and not only the effect of internal mutational evolution... ? (I keep the capellids or brünns elements aside for their influences by crossing seam to me very evident and not confusing with evolution) - I confess I need more detailed and up-to-date well sampled surveys about mt-DNA in these areas (I have not too much money to purchase all the papers edited today) – nevertheless some evident phenotypical links appear within Iberians and Atlantic european shores, hard to evaluate very precisely but evident yet – less evident for more continental regions of Western Europe –
a bet : my present thought is that spite of some drift due to social male domination (the Steppes people showed social tendencies I link to that) the western dominating pool of Y-DNA in Europe is ancient in place (without speaking about later internal movements in closer times of History) – I see no reason for far coming Steppes tribes could overflow an already well developped population (about demographics) of neolithic peoples and neolithicized mesolithic ones. So if the western european males are european for a long time, I understand the phenotypical differences between regions without an only strictly female stocks explanation -

 

[Taranis]

Moesan, you have a point about autosomal and mitochondrial DNA, yes. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that:

1) there is no such thing as an "R1b race".

2) the origins of Y-Haplogroup R1b are clearly outside of Europe.

3) the modern dominance of R1b in Western Europe is the result of a founder effect during the late(st) Neolithic / early Bronze Age (again, Moeasan, if we are looking at mitochondrial/autosomal DNA, the picture is a very different one).

4) R1b in Western Europe (the clade R1b-L51 and it's "son" clades) is phylogenetically tied with other subclades of R1b found in Anatolia (L584) and the Balkans (ht35). By what route R1b entered Western Europe is unclear as of the moment.

5) the hypothesis that the distribution of R1b can be tied with the expansion from the Iberian Glacial Refuge at the end of the ice age has been thoroughly debunked at this point. Who claims otherwise, and I am very sorry that I have to say this, must be either unaware of the research results of the past four or so years (which, I hope, shouldn't be the case anymore after reading this), or wishes to consciously ignore these research results (for whatever reason).

 

[Ziober]

"my heart" (gast ar hast! sorry)

Knovas and Taranis, you are right at first sight; it is true that mt DNA HGs, Y DNA HGs and autosomal genes are not linked one together by themselves, being on different chromosomes (Y, autosomals) or in cells (mt) - even for autosomals, they are dispersed on a lot of chromosomes, so for an indiviual, no link OK - but there is a statistical link (even if elastic) between all these genes at a collective level -

the only ways that a previous distributions of all these genes could drastically change in a population are:
hazard drift in a small population (founder effect), the case of ancient small families or tribes : it can have a strong result on Y-DNA, very less on the autosomals as a whole – less effect in today big populations – this is well shown by some african tribes and Bashkirs, I think -
social-political drift linked to male elites taking wives outside of their ethny leading to an over-representation of some Y-HGs : it seams it could have played a heavy enough role in « barbarians » times, more than today, but in what proportions ? This could be too a part of the explanation for Africans Y-R1b and Bashkirs, joined to the hazard cause of drift ? -
natural environmental selection (pressure) : it can not change all the genome and if it played surely an evident role at the sunrise of modern humanity it does not modify the external phenotypical genes to much in the present times (i do not expect a too big evolution about skin colour in future, by instance, but by « racial » crossings, and partially, by social classes selection – we know that Cro-Magnon was not the better equipped type for survive in cold climate and nevertheless they took the advantage on better fitted Neanderthals, according to scientists, so adaptation capacity by intelligence is not too new for Man -
about Y-DNA providing advantages or disadvantages, I wait knowing more (not only newly written papers « scooplike ») – these effect could affect the Y-DNA pool distribution more than the external phenotypes


it is true that in South Western Europe, the autosomals could have been changed at a noticeable level by a constant flow of genes by females of the Mediterranean shores (some surveys, outdated maybe, said that) between final Paleo and Neolithic , flow that could be very difficult to discover by archeology: some evolution of metric means on Mesolithic skeletons that show considerable gracilization and oter modifications of face and body could be the result of South and Eastern demic influences (contacts) upon the previous cromagnoid stock and not only the effect of internal mutational evolution... ? (I keep the capellids or brünns elements aside for their influences by crossing seam to me very evident and not confusing with evolution) - I confess I need more detailed and up-to-date well sampled surveys about mt-DNA in these areas (I have not too much money to purchase all the papers edited today) – nevertheless some evident phenotypical links appear within Iberians and Atlantic european shores, hard to evaluate very precisely but evident yet – less evident for more continental regions of Western Europe –
a bet : my present thought is that spite of some drift due to social male domination (the Steppes people showed social tendencies I link to that) the western dominating pool of Y-DNA in Europe is ancient in place (without speaking about later internal movements in closer times of History) – I see no reason for far coming Steppes tribes could overflow an already well developped population (about demographics) of neolithic peoples and neolithicized mesolithic ones. So if the western european males are european for a long time, I understand the phenotypical differences between regions without an only strictly female stocks explanation -

Thanks Moesan.

 

[Ziober]

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf