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Thread: Haplogroup I in southern Spain

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    Haplogroup I in southern Spain

    Aroun 12-15% has been found in southern Spain. In Seville (n= 155) 12.3%, in Huelva+Cadiz+Cordoba (n=77) 12.98% . I think they should be included in the maps of I and I2a. The study is old, Flores et. al 2004

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    Not every study on Spain concluded the same. It's averages of all studies that matter. Then just knowing that there is 12-15% of I doesn't tell which variety of I it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not every study on Spain concluded the same. It's averages of all studies that matter. Then just knowing that there is 12-15% of I doesn't tell which variety of I it is.
    In the study they specify which percentage is the subclade I2a. And I am not talking about the whole Andalusia, but the triangle Seville-Cadiz-Huelva seems to indicate there is a "pocket" of higher than usual I percentage

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    I will modify the map if at least one other study confirms that such a pocket of I2a exists around Seville-Cadiz-Huelva. Oddly there doesn't seem to have been a lot of new haplogroup studies in the last few months. I wonder what's going on.

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    I believe Vandals carried M26 that is now known as I2a1.. that explains fairly well the spread of I2a in Sardinia, Portugal, Spain...
    besides it is very logical...
    I1 are germanic in origin, I2b1 are germanic in origin, why would I2a1 not be germanic in origin as well... why would we assume that it belonged top some ancient mediteranean inhabitants of Sardinia...
    that's just insane... especially since we know from history that last massive settlers were germanic Vandals...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I believe Vandals carried M26 that is now known as I2a1.. that explains fairly well the spread of I2a in Sardinia, Portugal, Spain...
    besides it is very logical...
    I1 are germanic in origin, I2b1 are germanic in origin, why would I2a1 not be germanic in origin as well... why would we assume that it belonged top some ancient mediteranean inhabitants of Sardinia...
    that's just insane... especially since we know from history that last massive settlers were germanic Vandals...
    Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Vandals carried M26 positive I2a1. The Vandals were of Germanic origin and invaded Spain. I2a1 was already there, as it was founded in Iberia [Nordtvedt].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Vandals carried M26 positive I2a1. The Vandals were of Germanic origin and invaded Spain. I2a1 was already there, as it was founded in Iberia [Nordtvedt].
    I second that opinion. I2a1 is not Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I second that opinion. I2a1 is not Germanic.
    To add a little more; Nordtvedt's dating of M26 I2a1 makes it possibly the first clade to ever hit the shores of Britain, from the direction of Iberia, in the early post-LGM period. I2a1 is ancient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Vandals carried M26 positive I2a1. The Vandals were of Germanic origin and invaded Spain. I2a1 was already there, as it was founded in Iberia [Nordtvedt].
    sure, like I2a2 is founded in Bosnia and R1b in west Europe, and G2a in Caucasus...
    when will you people learn that higher frequency of some haplogroup does not necessary talk about it being there for very very long time....


    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    To add a little more; Nordtvedt's dating of M26 I2a1 makes it possibly the first clade to ever hit the shores of Britain, from the direction of Iberia, in the early post-LGM period. I2a1 is ancient.
    so?
    ancient haplogroups cannot be carried by a historical populations?

    saying haplogroup is old so much, tell us nothing about where it was when it was created, and besdes how are we sure it is ancient?

    estimating how old is the group is just statistical approximation...based on idea that people live certain age and that genetic mutation happens with certain rate...
    it's a model, model that can be very very wrong...since it is based on statistics and on parameters that are determined completely ad-hoc...

    there is I2a2 in Brasil...oh its ancient there as well..so, by your logic it must have come from Brasil, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    In the study they specify which percentage is the subclade I2a. And I am not talking about the whole Andalusia, but the triangle Seville-Cadiz-Huelva seems to indicate there is a "pocket" of higher than usual I percentage
    let's investigate this pocket. It is in Andalusia, province named after Vandals..

    any clue where is Andalusia?
    look:

    now look at position of Vandals in Iberian peninsula

    where is I2a1 really really high?
    Sardinia!!
    who was the last to massively settle Sardinia?
    Vandals and Alans

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    By the way this is topic about haplogroup I in Spain
    Let's look at I1 in spain

    and now let us look at kingdom of Suebi

    what can we conclude?
    Suebi carried I1 haplogroup as dominant, but Visigoths and Vandals either didnot carry it as dominant or didnot leave significant imprint...
    well, I would say Germanic Vandals not carrying dominant I1 must have been dominantly some other I haplogroup....
    perhaps I2a1 as I have already shown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Vandals carried M26 positive I2a1. The Vandals were of Germanic origin and invaded Spain. I2a1 was already there, as it was founded in Iberia [Nordtvedt].
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    To add a little more; Nordtvedt's dating of M26 I2a1 makes it possibly the first clade to ever hit the shores of Britain, from the direction of Iberia, in the early post-LGM period. I2a1 is ancient.

    so, are you saying that there were never any germanic settlements in Britain that could carry some subgroup of I haplogroup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    sure, like I2a2 is founded in Bosnia and R1b in west Europe, and G2a in Caucasus...
    when will you people learn that higher frequency of some haplogroup does not necessary talk about it being there for very very long time....



    so?
    ancient haplogroups cannot be carried by a historical populations?

    saying haplogroup is old so much, tell us nothing about where it was when it was created, and besdes how are we sure it is ancient?

    estimating how old is the group is just statistical approximation...based on idea that people live certain age and that genetic mutation happens with certain rate...
    it's a model, model that can be very very wrong...since it is based on statistics and on parameters that are determined completely ad-hoc...

    there is I2a2 in Brasil...oh its ancient there as well..so, by your logic it must have come from Brasil, right?
    I don't appreciate your achingly-unfunny sarcasm. It does you no credit whatsoever. You are simply parading your own ignorance here, and making a complete fool of yourself into the bargain.

    You miss the point that M26 I2a1 was founded in Iberia thousands of years before the Vandal invasions. It is practically absent in the Germanic zone from which the Vandals sprang. They would not have carried I2a1 to Spain, as it was already there in good numbers. I am going by Ken Nordtvedt's dating of M26 I2a1, by the way.

    Of course 'historical populations' can carry haplogroups. You mention I2a2, and I will give you two examples. Unlike the highly spurious Vandals/I2a1 link, these two are actually plausible.

    Firstly, any I2a2 in Brazil was quite obviously taken there by Europeans. You achieve nothing in sarcastically suggesting that it is 'ancient there' so it 'must have come from there'.

    Secondly, the eastern form of I2a2- I2a2a-Dinaric [to use Nordtvedt's nomenclature] found in highest numbers in the Balkans was probably spread by Slavic migrations. This is not the only form of I2a2.

    Thirdly, the western form of I2a2- L161 I2a2b-Isles, found in Britain, Ireland and across the north European plain [Germany, France etc] was probably taken up the Danube route by the LinearBandKeramik Culture, to Germany where the mutation L161 was 'born'. From there it probably got to Britain/Ireland via the 'historical movements of people' such as La Tene Celts, Belgae and possibly Anglo-Saxons. Some may have got to Britain earlier than that.

    So, you see, I do acknowledge that 'historical movements' can transport haplogroups. Where you and I differ is that I have arguably chosen credible 'movements' [i.e Slavic migrations for I2a2a-Dinaric, and LBK and Celts/ Belgae/AS for I2a2b-Isles] in relation to haplogroup I2a2.

    If you can explain to me how M26 I2a1 travelled up to the Vandals in the Germanic zone from its founding place in Iberia [Nordtvedt], and then 'came back home again' to Spain with these same Vandals, I will be most impressed. As Maciamo says, 'I2a1' is not Germanic. The Vandals did not carry it. It was already there when they arrived.

    Of course I am not saying that Germanic groups did not bring I haplogroup with them!! On the contrary, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Friesians, Flemings, Norwegians, Danes and Normans all brought plenty of I haplogroup with them. They will have brought plenty of I1, I2b1, some I2a3-Western and a little I2a2b-Isles [Nordtvedt, Sykes]. What they almost certainly did not bring with them to Britain was M26 I2a1. M26 I2a1 first hit the shores of Britain around 6,000 years ago [Nordtvedt]. It was, in Iberia, out of the Germanic zone and so would not have been carried by later Germanic invaders.

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    I understand that haplogroup I is typical and very numerous for real
    Germanic peoples. But has it its origins? Did it arise in Sweden or in
    France or in the Balkan during the Ice Age? Who can give more information
    about its origin?

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    Picture shows possible boundaries of haplogroup I around 100 AD. I think existence of haplogroup I outside these lines is unlikely (except some I2b in Balkans, I2a2b in Britain and might be I2a2b in Balkans).
    What followed in the next several centuries should probably be called "Migration of Haplogroup I".


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    Shetop,
    There would have been some I2a2b-Isles and a little I2a2a-Disles [if we use Ken Nordtvedt's nomenclature] together with a little M26 I2a1, a little I2b1 and a little I2b1a-English in Britain and Ireland. In the Balkans, we would have I2a2a-Dinaric.

    Going by Nordtvedt's system and also by ISOGG 2010, I2a2b equals L161 positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Shetop,
    There would have been some I2a2b-Isles and a little I2a2a-Disles [if we use Ken Nordtvedt's nomenclature] together with a little M26 I2a1, a little I2b1 and a little I2b1a-English in Britain and Ireland. In the Balkans, we would have I2a2a-Dinaric.

    Going by Nordtvedt's system and also by ISOGG 2010, I2a2b equals L161 positive.
    Yes, I did miss mentioning some less frequent varieties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I don't appreciate your achingly-unfunny sarcasm. It does you no credit whatsoever. You are simply parading your own ignorance here, and making a complete fool of yourself into the bargain.
    calm down, sarcasm is normal way to make argument in a debate... Though it rarely is funny to the one whose ignorance it is targeting...
    as for me parading my ignorance, well, that is natural.. it would be very unnatural if I parade with someone else's ignorance as you seems to do with those "Ken Nordvedt said so" lines...
    as for making fool out of myself...
    I claim that M26 in Iberian peninsula might have come there with Vandals...I pinpoint credible arguments that its higher distribution matches exactly historically known Vandal settlement..I pinpoint that second significant peak of M26 found in Sardinia is again matching historically recorded place of Vandals last settlement, I pinpoint that there is strong correlation between Germanic tribes and movements of I haplogroup.... so I have credible arguments for my claims...
    what are your arguments for laughing out my hypothesis...
    your only argument is "Ken told me so.."
    well, did that Ken publish a scientific publication out of it?
    please refer to it if he did...
    if not, please stop parading with his name as a proof of your claims...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    You miss the point that M26 I2a1 was founded in Iberia thousands of years before the Vandal invasions.
    wow, you went back in time before Vandals and sampled all people around the world and found this haplogroup in Iberia only... I am amazed...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    It is practically absent in the Germanic zone from which the Vandals sprang.
    what is your sample number in exact areas of east Europe where Vandals have lived?
    are you aware that Vandals moved out from their old settlement and went to live on Iberian peninsula? since they moved, has it over occured to you that they didnot forget their I2a1 back home...
    big traces of population you can find in frequences of haplogroups in their last settlements, not in the previous ones... about distant past of non exotic groups perhaps variance can tell something...
    you can find big traces of assimilated populations often, but not of the ones that moved away...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    They would not have carried I2a1 to Spain, as it was already there in good numbers. I am going by Ken Nordtvedt's dating of M26 I2a1, by the way.
    quote single scientific publication that claims this...
    and even if there is such a publication, you should learn to distinguish between hypothesis and facts...
    Ken Nordtvedt perhaps did somewehere give his educated guess about origin of M26...but that is not a fact... it was his assumption or guess in moment of stating it... besides Ken Norvedstadt is not almighty all knowing..he is just a man that makes guesses as most people on this forum do...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Of course 'historical populations' can carry haplogroups. You mention I2a2, and I will give you two examples. Unlike the highly spurious Vandals/I2a1 link, these two are actually plausible.
    Firstly, any I2a2 in Brazil was quite obviously taken there by Europeans. You achieve nothing in sarcastically suggesting that it is 'ancient there' so it 'must have come from there'.
    Secondly, the eastern form of I2a2- I2a2a-Dinaric [to use Nordtvedt's nomenclature] found in highest numbers in the Balkans was probably spread by Slavic migrations. This is not the only form of I2a2.
    Thirdly, the western form of I2a2- L161 I2a2b-Isles, found in Britain, Ireland and across the north European plain [Germany, France etc] was probably taken up the Danube route by the LinearBandKeramik Culture, to Germany where the mutation L161 was 'born'. From there it probably got to Britain/Ireland via the 'historical movements of people' such as La Tene Celts, Belgae and possibly Anglo-Saxons. Some may have got to Britain earlier than that.
    So, you see, I do acknowledge that 'historical movements' can transport haplogroups. Where you and I differ is that I have arguably chosen credible 'movements' [i.e Slavic migrations for I2a2a-Dinaric, and LBK and Celts/ Belgae/AS for I2a2b-Isles] in relation to haplogroup I2a2.
    I still didnot comment about origin and spread of I2a2...so I have no clue why you talk about it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    If you can explain to me how M26 I2a1 travelled up to the Vandals in the Germanic zone from its founding place in Iberia [Nordtvedt], and then 'came back home again' to Spain with these same Vandals, I will be most impressed. As Maciamo says, 'I2a1' is not Germanic. The Vandals did not carry it. It was already there when they arrived.
    again, please quote single publication that claims that what you, in apparently some kind of "Ken Nordvedt said so" delusional worship, see as an undeniable facts...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Of course I am not saying that Germanic groups did not bring I haplogroup with them!! On the contrary, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Friesians, Flemings, Norwegians, Danes and Normans all brought plenty of I haplogroup with them. They will have brought plenty of I1, I2b1, some I2a3-Western and a little I2a2b-Isles [Nordtvedt, Sykes]. What they almost certainly did not bring with them to Britain was M26 I2a1. M26 I2a1 first hit the shores of Britain around 6,000 years ago [Nordtvedt]. It was, in Iberia, out of the Germanic zone and so would not have been carried by later Germanic invaders.
    You are saying that west germanic tribers couldnot carry any of Vandals haplogroup to Britain... answer again, but first think whether it might have happened that a guy from east Germany move to west Germany?

    you people are completely obsessed with familytreedna but you are not aware that their database is mostly USA + UK samples... if you sample for example 1 milion people in area A and 500 people in area B sure you might find in A lot of samples of what looks as not existing in B, but whether such an assumption actually makes sense you can know only after you sample 1 million people in B....in this case we also have historically important possibility that those samples went from B to C where they are confirmed now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Picture shows possible boundaries of haplogroup I around 100 AD. I think existence of haplogroup I outside these lines is unlikely (except some I2b in Balkans, I2a2b in Britain and might be I2a2b in Balkans).
    What followed in the next several centuries should probably be called "Migration of Haplogroup I".


    on your figure, R1a for that time should match Venedi (and Fenni which is just a derivation from Venedi/Veni and is a part of later self-identification "(Slo)veni" ), since Venedi later moved north to fill in space left by Goths, and also towards west to fill in space vacated after movements of Germanic tribes (e.g. Suebes and Vandals to Iberian peninsula)
    as for I2a2, it is a mistery where to place it and to what tribe(s) is it related...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    calm down, sarcasm is normal way to make argument in a debate... Though it rarely is funny to the one whose ignorance it is targeting...
    as for me parading my ignorance, well, that is natural.. it would be very unnatural if I parade with someone else's ignorance as you seems to do with those "Ken Nordvedt said so" lines...
    as for making fool out of myself...
    I claim that M26 in Iberian peninsula might have come there with Vandals...I pinpoint credible arguments that its higher distribution matches exactly historically known Vandal settlement..I pinpoint that second significant peak of M26 found in Sardinia is again matching historically recorded place of Vandals last settlement, I pinpoint that there is strong correlation between Germanic tribes and movements of I haplogroup.... so I have credible arguments for my claims...
    what are your arguments for laughing out my hypothesis...
    your only argument is "Ken told me so.."
    well, did that Ken publish a scientific publication out of it?
    please refer to it if he did...
    if not, please stop parading with his name as a proof of your claims...

    wow, you went back in time before Vandals and sampled all people around the world and found this haplogroup in Iberia only... I am amazed...

    what is your sample number in exact areas of east Europe where Vandals have lived?
    are you aware that Vandals moved out from their old settlement and went to live on Iberian peninsula? since they moved, has it over occured to you that they didnot forget their I2a1 back home...
    big traces of population you can find in frequences of haplogroups in their last settlements, not in the previous ones... about distant past of non exotic groups perhaps variance can tell something...
    you can find big traces of assimilated populations often, but not of the ones that moved away...

    quote single scientific publication that claims this...
    and even if there is such a publication, you should learn to distinguish between hypothesis and facts...
    Ken Nordtvedt perhaps did somewehere give his educated guess about origin of M26...but that is not a fact... it was his assumption or guess in moment of stating it... besides Ken Norvedstadt is not almighty all knowing..he is just a man that makes guesses as most people on this forum do...

    I still didnot comment about origin and spread of I2a2...so I have no clue why you talk about it...

    again, please quote single publication that claims that what you, in apparently some kind of "Ken Nordvedt said so" delusional worship, see as an undeniable facts...

    You are saying that west germanic tribers couldnot carry any of Vandals haplogroup to Britain... answer again, but first think whether it might have happened that a guy from east Germany move to west Germany?

    you people are completely obsessed with familytreedna but you are not aware that their database is mostly USA + UK samples... if you sample for example 1 milion people in area A and 500 people in area B sure you might find in A lot of samples of what looks as not existing in B, but whether such an assumption actually makes sense you can know only after you sample 1 million people in B....in this case we also have historically important possibility that those samples went from B to C where they are confirmed now...
    We will have to agree to differ here then....

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    I understand that the haplogroup I was very important for the arise of the
    Germanic tribes in south Scandinavia, Denmark and north Germany.
    But where is the origin of haplogroup I? Did the ancestors of haplogroup I
    live in the south of France/Spain or in the Balkan? Who can give me more
    information about its origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I understand that the haplogroup I was very important for the arise of the
    Germanic tribes in south Scandinavia, Denmark and north Germany.
    But where is the origin of haplogroup I? Did the ancestors of haplogroup I
    live in the south of France/Spain or in the Balkan? Who can give me more
    information about its origin?
    they most likely came from Iran, passing through Caucasus... same way that Sarmatians followed later in history...
    this is even preserved in traditions of germanic people who called themselves aryan, which means nothing more than iranian...question is when did this migration took place, was it in several unrelated waves, and what were places in Europe that were initially settled by haplogroup I.. historic memory of aryan origin pinpoints to rather recent expansion, absence of some subgroups of I in Asia and Iran pinpoints to rather very very long lasting settlement in Europe.. so it is hard to say...
    in fact, iran was a place from which most euroasian haplogroups came to where they are now...

    even though the ancient DNA of mummy from corded ware cultures shows R1a, I would not exclude possibility of haplogroup I (with some R1a) being the Corded ware expansion...
    e.g. look at this diagrams of supposed distribution of I subgroups around 100 AD and compare it with area of Corded ware expansion...


    I would say it is extremely high correlation...

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    Haplgroup I has nothing to do with the Caucasus or Iran.
    Haplogroup I is a typical European haplogroup which is not
    present outside of Europe. Maybe the haplogroup I has its
    origin in the Cro-Magnon/Aurignac tribes who lived during the
    Ice-Age in southwest France. Who can give me more information
    about the haplogroup I?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Haplgroup I has nothing to do with the Caucasus or Iran.
    Haplogroup I is a typical European haplogroup which is not
    present outside of Europe. Maybe the haplogroup I has its
    origin in the Cro-Magnon/Aurignac tribes who lived during the
    Ice-Age in southwest France. Who can give me more information
    about the haplogroup I?
    right... everyone believes what he wants to believe
    but there were also measurements in Asia that shows presence of haplogrup I there
    http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
    I would say this distribution shows passage of I from areas bellow Black sea and bellow Caspian sea to Europe through Caucasus. distribution indicates that the the passage is made next to the shores of Caspian sea which is logical route since east of it is mountain range...

    furthermore, based on shape of its current distribution, and assuming general direction of movement towards north, I would dare to guess that perhaps the spread towards north started from iranian province of Kerman from where its carriers moved towards north, north-east, north-west and south-east...


    Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "┼Żermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province

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    For me it looks more like they were fishing communities around Caspian Sea with high I content. The centres in south Kazakhstan and Pakistan look like the I got hitchhiked with Iranians/Aryans tribes expending south.

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