The Normans

[DavidCoutts]

Actually, the data we have shows that is not the case. There appears to be a lot of R1b from present day Normandy. Where they came from and when I can't say, but there isn't evidence that Vikings replaced the paternal lineages there.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

I've posted this in the past, but I've pulled up the hg mixes (I, R1b, R1a, etc.) from the only French academic studies we have and Northern France looks more like Ireland than England, for that matter.

A great difficulty, though, is that it is hard to tell who a Viking is. There is a lot of R1b in Scandinavia. Relative to the Isles or Northern France, there is less, but it is still significant... and a lot of P312 including L21, not just U106. The Old Norway project shows this.

While there is a lot of R1b L21+ in Scandinavia, I was under the impression that it was defined by some fairly strict parameters on Subclades. For example, the "Germanic" S28. So if you are L21+ and don't have this particular Subclade, chances are your male ancestors were not Germanic/Norse.

Of course, this may change in the future as new L21+ Subclades are found or existing ones are researched more deeply. The problem with L21+ is that it's an overachiever: it crops up all over Europe which makes narrowing down one ancestry via DNA frustratingly difficult.

 

[mihaitzateo]

My opinion is that normans were not norse vikings,but geatish/sverige vikings (that is south swedes vikings) or danish vikings or a mix of geatish/sverige vikings and danish vikings.

What is written on wikipedia is a wrong supposition,about normans being descendants of norse (norwegian) vikings.
If they would have been descendants of local population mixed with norse vikings,how come in Normandy you can not find norse R1a1 (in fact I doubt you can find any R1A1 in Normandy)?
But the percentage of I1 is much higher in Normandy,than in the rest of France.
And in south Sweden is a very high percentage of I1A,much higher than in Norway.
In Gotland there is almost 50% I1A and is pretty clear gotlanders are descendants of some geatish vikings.
If you take Scotland or Ireland,where norse vikings settled there is a good percentage of norse R1A1 there.

 

[Guachelin]

R1a1 in Normandy

My opinion is that normans were not norse vikings,but geatish/sverige vikings (that is south swedes vikings) or danish vikings or a mix of geatish/sverige vikings and danish vikings.

What is written on wikipedia is a wrong supposition,about normans being descendants of norse (norwegian) vikings.
If they would have been descendants of local population mixed with norse vikings,how come in Normandy you can not find norse R1a1 (in fact I doubt you can find any R1A1 in Normandy)?
But the percentage of I1 is much higher in Normandy,than in the rest of France.
And in south Sweden is a very high percentage of I1A,much higher than in Norway.
In Gotland there is almost 50% I1A and is pretty clear gotlanders are descendants of some geatish vikings.
If you take Scotland or Ireland,where norse vikings settled there is a good percentage of norse R1A1 there.

In conversation with ethnoancestry I was informed that there were two versions of R1a1 amongst the "Vikings"
YCAII 19/21 is New Norse (Norwegian, essentially a patriarch who migrated north of Oslo), YCAII 19/23 is old Norse. I am confirmed R1a1a1, SNP Z93+, I have a documented ancestor name of Henry Ferrar who was a wealthy landowner in the England of Henry VII, Ewood Manor, Midgley, WRY.

Many a researcher traces us (probably wrongly) back to Henri de Ferriers St Hillaire (Henry de Ferrers) a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverell is responsible for the slaughter in the north when Aedwin of Mercia, realizing that the Domesday Survey was to be used for tax assessment, reneged on his oath of fealty to Guillaume. An oath that he and other Saxon Barons took to preserve their own fiefdoms.

I'm not so sure of these purported genealogies, though there is a documented lineage to Henry via a maternal line. I'm left considering three possibilities.

1. A Sarmatian auxillary stationed at Ribchester, Lancashire which is not far from Midgley, WRY

2. A Hungarian courtier in the entourage of Margaret Aetheling

3. An Alani whose descendants moved east from Armorica (Brittany) which the Romans had permitted them to raid and settle. There was a rich Alani grave found at Airan, Normandy, which is not far from the home of Guachelin de Ferrieres St Hillaire.

There are other possibilities, however England during the reign of Henry VII was very stratified, there were land owning nobility (titled or untitled, the landed gentry), peasants and an emerging class of peasant tradesmen and laborers, that lived mainly in commercial centers. The Ferrars of WRY were wealthy landowners, and thus had to have some "upper class" origins, so perhaps they were descended from de Ferrers.

I do know that the six DYS used by Capelli in his census of the Y Chromosone in the British Isles, were found
in Faversham and Uttoxeter, both locations where Henry de Ferrers and his children and descendants set down roots.

There were nine other locations (Orkney, Shetlands, Northern Scotland, and these six markers were found in Northern Germany, Norway as well), however those six markers do not tell the whole story because they don't include SNP's.

Any comments, or ideas?

 

[MOESAN]

In conversation with ethnoancestry I was informed that there were two versions of R1a1 amongst the "Vikings"



3. An Alani whose descendants moved east from Armorica (Brittany) which the Romans had permitted them to raid and settle. There was a rich Alani grave found at Airan, Normandy, which is not far from the home of Guachelin de Ferrieres St Hillaire.

There are other possibilities, however England during the reign of Henry VII was very stratified, there were land owning nobility (titled or untitled, the landed gentry), peasants and an emerging class of peasant tradesmen and laborers, that lived mainly in commercial centers. The Ferrars of WRY were wealthy landowners, and thus had to have some "upper class" origins, so perhaps they were descended from de Ferrers.

I do know that the six DYS used by Capelli in his census of the Y Chromosone in the British Isles, were found
in Faversham and Uttoxeter, both locations where Henry de Ferrers and his children and descendants set down roots.

There were nine other locations (Orkney, Shetlands, Northern Scotland, and these six markers were found in Northern Germany, Norway as well), however those six markers do not tell the whole story because they don't include SNP's.

Any comments, or ideas?

i ANSWER YOU AND ALSO THE WAY MIHAITZATEO
you:
the roman "Armorica" was not only the actual Brittany but the Channel shores too: it is pretty sure that Sarmatians or Alans left very little traces in actual Brittany (the bulk of them seams have been settled Northern France)
Mihaitzateo:
I find very astonishing this affirmation there was a majority of Swede vikings in Normandy: what I red is that there AND norse vikings AND danish vikings, and perhaps, mixed with them, a lot of partially Scots of Ireland and Scotland "vikingized"

 

[mihaitzateo]

@Guachelin:
Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans.

back to topic:
According to history Rollo is either a son of a Danish king or a norwegian.Historians are still arguing about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
Thing is were most viking were from,seems that they were most from geatish/sverige + denmark vikings and very few from norse vikings if you take DNA tests from Normandy.
In Heimskringla is told about a war between geats and a norse king,which should have been around same period Rollo went to Normandy :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Fairhair's_campaign_in_Götaland
So it seems that time,the relations between svears+geats (which were south swedes) and norse (which were norwegians) were not that great.
These things are weird.
And that things will become even more weird,Beowulf is an epic english poem,written in old english,which tells about a geat hero,Beowulf,who went to help a danish king to fight against some powerfull creature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf
As is known,normans went to conquer England:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_England
This happened in the year 1066 and Beowulf is not known when was written but is told to be written between 8th and 11th century.
(pretty likely was written either in Normandy or in England).
So the connection between these things comes naturally.

 

[Guachelin]

mihaitzateo said
Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans


Thank you for your consideration.


My surname is Farrar (Ferrar, Ferror). My earliest documented ancestor was a wealthy landowner (untitled nobility) and merchant during the reign of Henry VII, a feudal era. Given his wealth (he bought land and built Ewood Manorl as well as other land, and his family bought a lot of land and manors throughout England, but mostly in the midland counties). It has been an article of faith amongst Farrars that we are of the de Ferrers, whose ancestor was Henry de Ferrieries St Hillaire, a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverel, Harried the North, to put down the rebellion of Aedwin of Mercia and Morcar his brother.


This was a rather firmly held belief until SNP testing revealed that the R1a1a1 Farrars (there is also an I1 Farrar, and an R1b1 Farrar) were Z93+ L342-.


This rules out Viking and rules in Eurasian (Sarmatian). Z93+ is an anomaly in 15th Century Britain. We are not Arab, Indian,
Tatar (peoples who have Z93+)


This leaves the following choices, as I try to trace my ancestral heritage
1. A Sarmatian cavalryman stationed along Hadrians Wall (there was a Roman Castra at Ribchester in Lancashire, which is not that far from Ewood Manor, Midgley, West Riding Yorkshire)


2. An Alani whose descendant wound up in Ferrieres St Hillaire, Normandy. Per Taedeuz Simulirski. A richly furnished grave with Sarmatian grave goods was found at Airan, FR, which is 75 miles from Ferrieres St Hillaire.


3. A Hungarian courtiere in the court of Margaret Aetheling.

 

[zanipolo]

mihaitzateo said
Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans


Thank you for your consideration.


My surname is Farrar (Ferrar, Ferror). My earliest documented ancestor was a wealthy landowner (untitled nobility) and merchant during the reign of Henry VII, a feudal era. Given his wealth (he bought land and built Ewood Manorl as well as other land, and his family bought a lot of land and manors throughout England, but mostly in the midland counties). It has been an article of faith amongst Farrars that we are of the de Ferrers, whose ancestor was Henry de Ferrieries St Hillaire, a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverel, Harried the North, to put down the rebellion of Aedwin of Mercia and Morcar his brother.


This was a rather firmly held belief until SNP testing revealed that the R1a1a1 Farrars (there is also an I1 Farrar, and an R1b1 Farrar) were Z93+ L342-.


This rules out Viking and rules in Eurasian (Sarmatian). Z93+ is an anomaly in 15th Century Britain. We are not Arab, Indian,
Tatar (peoples who have Z93+)

Russian and DNA forums reveals this type to be from the Cumans, yes from the steppes, but settling in Hungary after the dark ages

 

[Guachelin]

Russian and DNA forums reveals this type to be from the Cumans, yes from the steppes, but settling in Hungary after the dark ages

Thank you, but then that leaves the question of how is it that my paternal DNA has been in England since before the reign of Henry VII, and were wealthy merchants and landowners.

 

[FBS]

Is J2b2 really Norman or are just Semite traces in them? Anyone knows the answer?

 

[zanipolo]

Is J2b2 really Norman or are just Semite traces in them? Anyone knows the answer?

would J2b2 have existed prior to the creation of the semites?

 

[FBS]

would J2b2 have existed prior to the creation of the semites?

Well, I was hoping to get sort of an answer from someone since it was quite strange for me to find J2b2 in this list as Norman http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults while I do not think that J2b2 is Norman, at least I never read it anywhere confirming it.

 

[Theosis]

I'm of documentable, middle-grade noble Siculo-Norman heritage (my ancestor was a general under Robert Guiscard, and helped him greatly in conquering Sicily for Western Christendom)...Arctic blue eyes and all, still here as evidence of the Viking blood...and I belong to Y-DNA G2a (P15)...apparently a common Sicilian genetic ancestry?...

Anyway, I'm Siculo-Norman or Italo-Norman, and that's my input...

Who knows the meaning?

If G2a is really mediocre peasant Levant farmer blood, over time merging with Aryan-Alan tribes, and sublimating its blood into superior caste, so be it... Anyone who calls me an "Afro-Asian" or "Hamitic" should have sword in hand, however. I look nothing like an African-Asian hybrid--fully European...

Shoot, learning the ugly truth, "sucks", as the plebeians say nowadays...

 

[Theosis]

I think tagging complex genetic expressions to historical and ethnic conceptions, should be done very carefully...

If I am Western European ("seigneurial" rights would be mine if I moved back to Sicily--never mind, I forget the demonic Communists killed off the Italian nobility senselessly) who looks nothing like some brutish, semi-ape creature from Hither-Asia, maybe our correlations need to be re-done?

This talk of G2a being simply "Neolithic Semitic Turks" is insane--this narrative cannot be the whole truth! Not that I have anything against Semites--I simply am proud of my line, as basically historical Berserk-blooded "miles Christi" who meritoriously stood up for Christ and the West...

 

[MOESAN]

G2a is maybe neolithic, surely E

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry,
Y-G2a is maybe neolithic (it would need some more precise SNP), surely of geographic anatolian-caucasic origin - 'Turc' is a very "wide" ethnic name, as 'Semitic', and irrelevant for a lot of 'G2' bearers...
SO don't be sorry ...
and speaking about male 'line' tracing back to far past centuries is somehow aventurous.

 

[Theosis]

Sorry,
Y-G2a is maybe neolithic (it would need some more precise SNP), surely of geographic anatolian-caucasic origin - 'Turc' is a very "wide" ethnic name, as 'Semitic', and irrelevant for a lot of 'G2' bearers...
SO don't be sorry ...
and speaking about male 'line' tracing back to far past centuries is somehow aventurous.

"Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?

I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.

Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.

Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...

As Dante rightly asserted, nobility is virtue; and inherited nobility is dead unless the "title-deeds" of virtue of the the originally ennobled individual are kept in mind as the meritorious quintessence of nobility. I have no downtrodden socialistic heartburn over my Italo-Nordic ancestor who vindicated the place of Sicily in European Christendom in just war against alien presence.

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous.

Are the traces of G2 in the Jewry and Palestinians perhaps indicative of ancient Indo-European Persian or Hittite-type lineal ingression? Hebrews openly confess how ethnically mixed they are--an Indo-European assimilation of nearby "Indo-Hittite" ethnic substance is worth considering in this context...

The Scytho-Sarmatian, Sauromatian and Alanic tribes seem the more probable generative ethnic groups--G2 is the most mysterious male genetic group by far, from my preliminary studies--all these related Paleocaucasian tribal entities explicitly "ARYAN"/Iranian/Iranic, ethnoculturally. The very same tribes introducing horse-battle tactics, mounted horse-archery, the very idea of "knighthood" to their Celtic-Germanic cousins in the West; soldiery of Iranian ancestry commandeered to Hadrian's Wall, the NUMERI EQUITUM SARMATARUM, is possibly interwoven in the Arthurian Grail mythos and thus to G2 "speculative history"...

If I am Turkish, then all Europe is Turkish! Where did the ancient Norse chiefs attribute their origins, the original Latins of Rome, etc.? "The TROJANS," they declared, esoterically. Troy is in TURKEY; Homeric Troy is known as one of the settled, nuclei of paleo-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian culture (whose origins appear ultimately, probably semi-Arctic and Siberian, the Greek "Hyperboreans"), and the Vikings claimed descent from scattered Trojan remnants. Search: Tiras...

BTW, every Western European ethnic group is traceable to paleo-Iranian Eurasian origins (with Basque-like exceptions of complex enigmas). The precise missing link overlooked by historians? Try researching the "GETAE", "THYSSAGETAE", and "MASSAGETAE" and "SAKA" of Asia...Indo-Iranian/Aryan folk who suddenly magically became "Western Germanic", "Gothic" and "Saxon" without further explanation...

 

[sparkey]

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous.

Let's be more specific with time periods. Moesan was correct in that much of the G2a certainly arrived in Europe, probably from Anatolia, during the Neolithic. We have Neolithic samples from Europe proving that it was there by then (including Ötzi!). At the same time, you're right that "G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata." Sure, and some of the G2a in Europe probably came with the Indo-Europeans. Maciamo explores which is which in depth here. Do you know your subclade more precisely than just G2a? That would help us help you figure out when your patriline got to Europe. (And yes, a Turkic introduction is unlikely regardless.)

The Scytho-Sarmatian, Sauromatian and Alanic tribes seem the more probable generative ethnic groups--G2 is the most mysterious male genetic group by far, from my preliminary studies--all these related Paleocaucasian tribal entities explicitly "ARYAN"/Iranian/Iranic, ethnoculturally. The very same tribes introducing horse-battle tactics, mounted horse-archery, the very idea of "knighthood" to their Celtic-Germanic cousins in the West; soldiery of Iranian ancestry commandeered to Hadrian's Wall, the NUMERI EQUITUM SARMATARUM, is possibly interwoven in the Arthurian Grail mythos and thus to G2 "speculative history"...

Most of these ethnic groups have little chance of being as old as G2, which is about 17,000 years old. You really need to talk about much more specific subclades to have this narrative make sense. It indeed seems likely that Sarmatians would have carried some G2, but what type of G2?

BTW, every Western European ethnic group is traceable to paleo-Iranian Eurasian origins (with Basque-like exceptions of complex enigmas). The precise missing link overlooked by historians? Try researching the "GETAE", "THYSSAGETAE", and "MASSAGETAE" and "SAKA" of Asia...Indo-Iranian/Aryan folk who suddenly magically became "Western Germanic", "Gothic" and "Saxon" without further explanation...

What are you talking about? There's no evidence that the Getae, Thyssagetae, Massagetae, or Saka were Germanic.

 

[MOESAN]

"Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?

I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.

Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.

Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous.

If I am Turkish, then all Europe is Turkish! Where did the ancient Norse chiefs attribute their origins, the original Latins of Rome, etc.? "The TROJANS," they declared, esoterically. Troy is in TURKEY; Homeric Troy is known as one of the settled, nuclei of paleo-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian culture (whose origins appear ultimately, probably semi-Arctic and Siberian, the Greek "Hyperboreans"), and the Vikings claimed descent from scattered Trojan remnants. Search: Tiras...

Wow!!! OK OK! you are sure of your male ancestry, I'm glad for you -
I think you did not understand too well my post
I never spoke about your supposed "racism", I was trying to explain that Y-G is a genetic haplogroup but very undetermined based on portions of chromosome Y and that 'turkish' or other ethnic terms can not be linked without proofs to a so widely spred HG, which downstream was carried by different people, collectivities sometimes, individuals sometimes, at different times to different places - who ever spoke about 'Ethiopians' for Y-G? and was neolithical agricultors a bad ancestors stock?
I need no answer from you, it was just to precise some points, Sparkey gave you good enough answers. I'm very fine tonight !
have a good night

 

[zanipolo]

"Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?

I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.

Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.

Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...

As Dante rightly asserted, nobility is virtue; and inherited nobility is dead unless the "title-deeds" of virtue of the the originally ennobled individual are kept in mind as the meritorious quintessence of nobility. I have no downtrodden socialistic heartburn over my Italo-Nordic ancestor who vindicated the place of Sicily in European Christendom in just war against alien presence.

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous.

Are the traces of G2 in the Jewry and Palestinians perhaps indicative of ancient Indo-European Persian or Hittite-type lineal ingression? Hebrews openly confess how ethnically mixed they are--an Indo-European assimilation of nearby "Indo-Hittite" ethnic substance is worth considering in this context...

The Scytho-Sarmatian, Sauromatian and Alanic tribes seem the more probable generative ethnic groups--G2 is the most mysterious male genetic group by far, from my preliminary studies--all these related Paleocaucasian tribal entities explicitly "ARYAN"/Iranian/Iranic, ethnoculturally. The very same tribes introducing horse-battle tactics, mounted horse-archery, the very idea of "knighthood" to their Celtic-Germanic cousins in the West; soldiery of Iranian ancestry commandeered to Hadrian's Wall, the NUMERI EQUITUM SARMATARUM, is possibly interwoven in the Arthurian Grail mythos and thus to G2 "speculative history"...

If I am Turkish, then all Europe is Turkish! Where did the ancient Norse chiefs attribute their origins, the original Latins of Rome, etc.? "The TROJANS," they declared, esoterically. Troy is in TURKEY; Homeric Troy is known as one of the settled, nuclei of paleo-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian culture (whose origins appear ultimately, probably semi-Arctic and Siberian, the Greek "Hyperboreans"), and the Vikings claimed descent from scattered Trojan remnants. Search: Tiras...

BTW, every Western European ethnic group is traceable to paleo-Iranian Eurasian origins (with Basque-like exceptions of complex enigmas). The precise missing link overlooked by historians? Try researching the "GETAE", "THYSSAGETAE", and "MASSAGETAE" and "SAKA" of Asia...Indo-Iranian/Aryan folk who suddenly magically became "Western Germanic", "Gothic" and "Saxon" without further explanation...

Please expalin how you can be turkic, because Turkic was in central asia when G2 moved into Europe, there was no turkic in anatolia, middle-east or caucasus at that time........how can you be sarmatian when sarmatians only existed from 700BCE, G2 moved thousands of years before then.