The Normans

Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?

Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?

Whether or not Baldwin of Flanders was 'neutral', there was certainly [as is relatively well-known] a Flemish contingent in 'the Great Bastard's' army. Why refer to it as Breton-Norman? There was certainly a large Breton contingent, but equally given the size of the Frankish contribution, one could refer to a Frankish-Norman army. Gascony, Picardy too were represented.

That the mainstay of Rollo's original band was Danish, including Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw is well documented by several historians such as Gwyn Jones, Michael Wood, and Johannes Brondstedt. However, there was a smaller, Norwegian contingent which apparently settled the Cotentin peninsular quite heavily. Lastly, Rollo's band also included a Norse-Gael element; Norwegians who had been in Ireland for some time.

By the time of the 1066 conquest, the 'Normans' were surely not Scandinavian on every line, as intermarriage with Frankish women etc was the norm. Many so-called 'Norman' surnames which allegedly 'came over with the Conqueror' have non-Scandinavian origins. For example...

Bellamy is Frankish
Joyce, Harvey are Breton
Roche is Flemish
Gascoigne is obviously from Gascony

The predominant element in the 'mixed bag' that was the Normans is probably Germanic. However, we should not underestimate the Celtic Breton element. I personally think that Breton settlement, particularly in north Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and East Anglia [Suffolk was at one time a 'Breton soke'] has been underestimated.
 
Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.
 
Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.

'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.

Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans. :shocked:
 
'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.

Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans. :shocked:

Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign.

The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.
 
Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign.

The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.

Yes, the so-called 'Dark Ages' are dark indeed when it comes to tribal ultra-violence. The 'Harrying of the North' seems to have been on a bigger scale than anything attributable to earlier Norwegian and Danish Viking incursions or anything the Anglo-Saxons did against the Brythons, or indeed anything the Brythons did against the pre-Celtic populations. As far as we know..

You are quite right to be cynical. Judging any of these earlier peoples/cultures through the left/liberal lens of 21st century social science/historical study clearly shows that none of them were remotely 'cuddly'. You are correct regarding the battles between the various Anglo-Saxon divisions of Mercia, Wessex etc. Ultra-violence was a way of life. :shocked:
 
"Alfred the Great wanted peace. But the Danes came, and the Norse. And so Alfred had to fight, and peace fled from him.

And when Alfred was dead and England was powerful, still more Danes came, and more Norse. And the Brittons marched out of Wales. And the Scots howled down from the North, and what can a man do except fight? For his family, his land, himself.

So I know this: for as long as there are people on this wind-swept isle, there will be war. And we cannot hide from the glory and the horror."

The Burning Land by Bernard Cronwall.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but I found it while searching. At any rate, has their been a Norman Modal established yet? I am beginning to think that perhaps my ancient grandfather may have come to the Isles with the Normans.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but I found it while searching. At any rate, has their been a Norman Modal established yet? I am beginning to think that perhaps my ancient grandfather may have come to the Isles with the Normans.

I'm also very interested in this, and believe there's a long way to go on the matter. I know there are others on this forum who know far more than I, who may have updates.
 
In regards to the normans, I am interested in what they left behind for DNA in Sicily, Apulia and Durozzo ( Durres ) Albania.
People say there is 1% "viking" dna in coastal Albania
 
In regards to the normans, I am interested in what they left behind for DNA in Sicily, Apulia and Durozzo ( Durres ) Albania.
People say there is 1% "viking" dna in coastal Albania

A fascinating area, and very complex in terms of Norman Y DNA. Again, I know there are experts in this field on this forum who I'm sure will be able to shed light on the matter.
 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Normandy Y-DNA Project is still a smallish project, but one reason for that is that to be included in one of its regular y-haplogroup categories, you have to actually have some evidence of y-dna ancestry in Normandy. Otherwise, you are gently and courteously placed in the "No Apparent Y-DNA Connection to Normandy" category.

I suspect the actual viking element in Normandy was always pretty small and became smaller as time wore on and viking lines daughtered out. Probably the bulk of the Norman population was Gaulish in origin, with a very thin veneer of viking elite. After all, it wasn't long before all of them were speaking French, so evidently there were never enough vikings in Normandy to affect the full-on adoption of their language and culture.
 
Mmm what you are proposing is a very similar situation to the Norman conquest of England. It was only the ruling Elite who changed whilst the bulk of the English population remained in place. It makes sense, but it will be interesting to see if anyone else has something to add.

Although, one way to judge the extent of Norse influence on native Normans would be to look at the Norman language for any similarities to the Norse.
 
I don't believe the Norse language had much impact on the French spoken by the Normans, if any. There are a few place names in Normandy that are believed to have been derived from old Norse, but that's about it.
 
I was not aware of that; however, it still seems pretty minor. I wouldn't characterize it as "quite an influence", but "quite" is a relative term, I guess.

Under 300 words, some of them of doubtful or debatable origin, in a sea of French vocabulary. That seems a mirror of the Norman genetic picture, actually.
 
I am an amature at understanding ydna and potential origins, clusters, etc... but based on the markers i currently have tested I am left with no very close matches anywhere it seems. my ancestry is from Ireland on my fathers side, although my surname is Scottish/English primarily. My str values when ran through the indigenous search on genebase have my highest RMI in Denmark. I know there is a bit of a "warm" spot for L21+ in northern Denmark. Based on that information I am beginning to think that my ancestor may have either migrated to England during the Danelaw time period (then to Scotland, and off to Ireland) or perhaps with the Normans (although I agree that the Normans were largely Gauls under a "Viking" ruling class).
 
From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.

I would think that the Vikings that settled in Normandy, by and large displaced (in a rather gruesome manner) the previous inhabitants, at least the males.

Even if not, the Y DNA passed down, would not be R1b1, which I suspect was scant in Denmark and Norway, in the 10th Century.

In other words I doubt that there was any R1b1 or at least a significant representation in Normandy, in the 10th and 11th century, with the exception of Brittany which was long settled and populated by Brits that came over from Brittain.

Then the Alani, a Sarmatian tribe, showed up in Normandy, at first in that part later called Brittany which the Romans called
Armorica, but they spread out eastward. These Alani might account for the R1a1 haplogroup found amongst Normans.
 
I would think that the Vikings that settled in Normandy, by and large displaced (in a rather gruesome manner) the previous inhabitants, at least the males.

Even if not, the Y DNA passed down, would not be R1b1, which I suspect was scant in Denmark and Norway, in the 10th Century.

In other words I doubt that there was any R1b1 or at least a significant representation in Normandy, in the 10th and 11th century, with the exception of Brittany which was long settled and populated by Brits that came over from Brittain.

Then the Alani, a Sarmatian tribe, showed up in Normandy, at first in that part later called Brittany which the Romans called
Armorica, but they spread out eastward. These Alani might account for the R1a1 haplogroup found amongst Normans.
Actually, the data we have shows that is not the case. There appears to be a lot of R1b from present day Normandy. Where they came from and when I can't say, but there isn't evidence that Vikings replaced the paternal lineages there.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

I've posted this in the past, but I've pulled up the hg mixes (I, R1b, R1a, etc.) from the only French academic studies we have and Northern France looks more like Ireland than England, for that matter.

A great difficulty, though, is that it is hard to tell who a Viking is. There is a lot of R1b in Scandinavia. Relative to the Isles or Northern France, there is less, but it is still significant... and a lot of P312 including L21, not just U106. The Old Norway project shows this.
 
I don't believe the Norse language had much impact on the French spoken by the Normans, if any. There are a few place names in Normandy that are believed to have been derived from old Norse, but that's about it.

I shall just say what I believe I know about Normandy

1- there was some light Bretons settled in Normandy about the 9/10° century, in the West (department of Manche, Cotentin (North, few) and Avranchais (South, little more) - as a whole, light demic influence
2- phenotypically, the general 'nordic' influence is of some weight in all the northern and central parts or Normandy, very fewer in southern parts (less accesive and moreconservative 'bocage' (groves?) regions: it is noticeable that the sepultures showed a late changement in Normandy, about 9/10° C. also, showing ancient population not too much celtized and keeping traits linked to demic Neolithic influenced populations of France (the better links: with people of the LBK as think some scholars) CHANGING into more robust and 'nordic' + some brachycephalic elements ('alpin'? 'borreby'?) fellows at this time)
3- History speaks about Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) but before that, of Saxons, maybe Frisons, durinng the roman domination period
4- the Northern part of the french 'roman' dialects of Normandy retained 'velar' 'K' and 'G', sometimes slightly palatized at modern times, but very different from the 'normal' Oil french evolution that produced 'TCH' and 'DJ' sounds before ancient latin 'A', turning after into 'CH' /sh/ and 'J' /zh/ - this evolution or absence of evolution links northern normand dialects to picardian dialects spoken in a previously heavy germanized region (with the same remarks concerning modern phenotypes)
 
Hello! I am I1 DYS390 22 , 464abcd 12-14-15-15 , SNP 253+ all following SNPs: P259-P15-P109-M72-M69-M286-M227-M21-M201-L91-L42-L30-L22-L211-L141-L140-L14-L13- Where do I belong? Germanic,Viking,Goth?
 

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