R1a in Western Europe

An update on my R1a1a1b2 (SNP Z93+, Z94-) I've been earnestly trying to ascertain the ethnicity of my earliest British ancestor. The Family surname is Farrar. Variations are Ferror, Ferrour, Fairer, Fareher, Fairher, Ferrar, Farrer and possibly more than I can find at the moment.

My earliest documented ancestor was a Henry Ferror, this man,during the reign of Edward IV (1471), was wealthy enough to purchase land and build a manoral hall, Ewood, in Halifax Parish, West Riding Yorkshire. The family was ubiquitous, wealthy and prominent in Yorkshire, Westmoreland, Durham counties of England. They made their fortune initially in wool, and bought up land and manoral halls around England, leasing land for coal mining.

The family appears out of thin air so to speak, save that a Ferror and wife (Ferror&uxor) appear in the 1379 Subsidy rolls for Yorkshire in the village of Eland (Elland) which is walking distance from Ewood Hall. But as tenants on the land of a John Elliston (Johannes Helistones), not as a land holder. By 1609 the family had earned armorial bearings.

A much believed and prominent ideation amongst the Farrars (of America and Europe) is that we descend from the Norman Henri de Ferrariis, who founded the de Ferrers, now Ferrers. This belief originated from a biographer of Nicholas Ferrar (cousin of my ancestor William Ferrar who migrated to Va in 1618, this lineage is well documented)

The revelation that Farrar YDNA (including some English participants in the project) is R1a1a1b2 (SNP Z93) has caused a rethink as to the ethnicity of our British ancestor.
Hypothesis range from a Sarmatian (Iazgye) auxillary of the Legus Romano Sextus Victrix which was stationed at York and whose veterans retired to Bremetenacum Veteranorum (Ribchester), Ewood Hall (or what was Ewood, which was torn down in the 1970's) is located some 17 crow miles from Ribchester and is bracketed between York and Ribchester, so that theory seemed reasonable, but not provable.

Second hypothesis was that Henri de Ferrariis, founder of the Ferrer(Ferrers) line was of Alani (A Sarmatian Tribe) ancestry, again unprovable.

Third hypothesis is that our ancestor was a Hungarian courtier in the entourage of Margaret and Edgar Aetheling, children of Edward the Exile, born in Hungary and invited back to England to inherit the crown by Edward the Confessor, but who had to flee to Scotland when Guillaume le betard conquerant, set Quillaume de Peverel and Henri de Ferrariis, to subdue the Saxon Earls Aedwin and Morcar, sons of King Algar.

These Saxons had pledged fealty to Wm after Hastings, but on learning of the Domesday survey and it's taxation purpose, they reneged on the pledge, and William set his lieutenants to bring Mercia to heel, and they set to Harrying the North en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North‎ causing the death of hundreds of thousands of Saxons, and forcing Margaret Aetheling and her court to flee to Scotland, where she married Malcolm III (MacBeth fame).

Coincidentally one of the Farrar DNA project members is surnamed Farrar, and he matches me 62/67 and tests positive for Z93, ergo also R1a1a1b2, as are over thirty other members, including an Evans and an English,these are not NPE's (Non Paternal Events either). Douglass documents his earliest known ancestor to Perthshire Scotland born 1735.

And all of this comes around to the Roma of Scotland. While it is known that the major Roma haplgroup is H1a, it is also known that R1a1a1b2 is found amongst Hungarian Roma.

It is also a fact that Douglass, and possibly Evans, Farr, Farrow and Faa are gypsie (Traveller) names.

I do not think that the question is answerable, but the possibilities are interesting.

Who would have thought that the much sought after, by personages so proud of their ancestry to Virginia, the Revolution and the Confederacy, might be if Gypsy ancestry.
 
According to 23andme R1 arose in the Middle East. Here's their whole story.


zttx.png
 
So this is maybe actually the real route of R1*, according to 23andme.

anatolianhypothesis.jpg
 
Arab maybe after Islam from north Africa from Saudi or yemen
 
R-DNA is our ancestoral DNA(Turkic) and we have fought&invaded our brothers in history because of politics.. as our ancestors have done it against central asian Turkic brothers(Seljuk-Khwarezmian-Ghaznavid-Ottoman-Safevid wars)
 
Is L664 a Germanic haplogroup in general or will I have to do further testing for my subclade?
 
Are you saying that they can predict the Y Haplogroup of the Father in the DNA of Women?

they did for this but I need to cross reference..........I just need to upload my 1st cousin and since I know she is i1d-P109 ....if this comes up , then it works.

they do find mtdna for men ...........i used myself and my father

same as I cross reference in mtdna ....jameslick program and mitomaster
 
they did for this but I need to cross reference..........I just need to upload my 1st cousin and since I know she is i1d-P109 ....if this comes up , then it works.

they do find mtdna for men ...........i used myself and my father

same as I cross reference in mtdna ....jameslick program and mitomaster

A cross reference result would be Interesting to see, plus we’ll know how accurate their prediction algorithm is.
Thanks, Sile.
 
Some data about FTDNA customers with R1a haplogroup from England:

This data is from 2015-16, I'm sure that now there are more samples:

Pmy2qiI.png
 
I think that most of R1a in Germany is Slavic (as well as some Baltic, Old Prussian) simply because of how it is distributed, and because it belongs to the same branches as common Slavic branches. Compare frequencies of R1a among Western European nations and Germans, and how R1a is distributed in Germany:

Western Europeans:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang / sample size)

Flandern (heutzutage) ---------------------------- 4,3% (695)
Brabant (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,0% (große)
Wallonien (heutzutage) --------------------------- 4,0% (74)
England (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 4,0% (1830)
England (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,5% (>5000)
Irland (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 2,5% (>5000)
Wales (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 1,0% (411)

Balts and North Slavs:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Kaschuben (einheimische) ------------------------ 63,4% (268)
Kleinpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 63,2% (212)
Kurpie (einheimische) ----------------------------- 61,4% (158)
Kociewie (einheimische) -------------------------- 56,3% (158)
Großpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 54,8% (343)
Litauer (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 42,2% (301)
Letten (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 40,0% (große)

Germany (regional %):

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Sorben (einheimische) ---------------------------- 65,0% (123)
Oberschlesien (vor 1914) ------------------------- 63,0% (48)
Brandenburg an der Havel (vor 1914) ---------- 50,0% (14)
Niederschlesien (vor 1914) ----------------------- 48,0% (48)
Ostpreußen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 45,2% (84)
Graz, Österreich (heutzutage) -------------------- 42,9% (große)
Dessau–Roßlau (vor 1914) ------------------------ 42,9% (7)
Chemnitz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 40,0% (10)
Dresden (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 32,6% (große)
Rostock (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 32,4% (96)
Halle an der Saale (heutzutage)* --------------- 30,3% (234)
Leipzig (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 27,1% (144)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (vor 1914) ---------- 25,8% (31)
Berlin (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 23,7% (232)
Sachsen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 22,0% (41)
Bern (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 21,4% (???)
Magdeburg (heutzutage) ------------------------- 21,0% (100)
Greifswald (heutzutage) ------------------------- 19,2% (104)
Sachsen-Anhalt (vor 1914) ---------------------- 17,7% (34)
Kassel (vor 1914) --------------------------------- 17,7% (17)
Hamburg (heutzutage) -------------------------- 16,8% (161)
Oberpfalz (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 16,7% (6)
Nord Osttirol -------------------------------------- 16,0% (235)
Köln (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 15,6% (96)
Braunschweig (vor 1914) ----------------------- 14,3% (14)
München (heutzutage) ------------------------- 14,3% (112)
Thüringen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 13,2% (38)
Unterfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 11,5% (26)
Freiburg im Breisgau (vor 1914) ---------------- 10,8% (102)
Lüneburg (vor 1914) -----------------------------10,0% (20)
Schleswig-Holstein (vor 1914) ----------------- 10,0% (20)
Niedersachsen (vor 1914) ----------------------- 9,8% (82)
Lausanne (heutzutage) -------------------------- 9,4% (???)
Bayern (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,6% (93)
Hessen (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,5% (82)
Mainz (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 8,4% (95)
Weser-Ems (vor 1914) -------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Hannover (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Münster (heutzutage) -------------------------- 7,8% (102)
[Münster (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 9,1% (11)]
Rheinhessen-Pfalz (vor 1914) ------------------ 7,8% (64)
Gießen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 7,1% (14)
Karlsruhe (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 6,7% (60)
Düsseldorf (vor 1914) -------------------------- 6,7% (15)
Darmstadt (vor 1914) --------------------------- 5,9% (51)
Oberfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 5,9% (17)
Baden-Württemberg (vor 1914) -------------- 5,7% (176)
Tübingen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 5,3% (19)
Rheinland-Pfalz (vor 1914) -------------------- 5,2% (116)
Stuttgart (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 4,4% (68)
Mulheim (heutzutage) -------------------------- 3,4% (59)
Nordrhein-Westfalen (vor 1914) -------------- 2,8% (72)
Koblenz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 2,7% (37)
Oberbayern (vor 1914) ------------------------- 0,0% (20)
Arnsberg (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (17)
Saarland (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (16)
Trier (vor 1914) ---------------------------------- 0,0% (15)
Detmold (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (14)
Schwaben (vor 1914) --------------------------- 0,0% (11)
Mittelfranken (vor 1914) ----------------------- 0,0% (10)
Bremen (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 0,0% (5)

^^^ The map of R1a in Germany and Austria posted below is based on this data:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

6enpso.jpg


Compare with the map of European languages in 1100 AD (this map is from: Grover S. Krantz, Professor of Anthropology, "Geographical Development Of European Languages", American University Studies, Series XI, Anthropology and Sociology, Vol. 26):

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/tur...ogrDevelopmOfEurLanguages/KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg

KrantzGCh7Fig26.jpg


In 800 AD the extent of Slavic languages was even larger than in 1100 AD, as it also included most of Austria in 800 AD:

4afef23f5949d5fcc2ff8a40deb4049c--pol-genealogy.jpg
 
Not only slavs brought this HG in W Europe. Corded Ware culture was in Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia(including Jutland culture of Corded Ware)
 
How significant was the impact of the Hanseatic League when came to the spread of different DNA across the Baltic and North Seas? I have a distant Norwegian ancestor that emigrated from Germany to Telemark in the 1500's and started a lumber business there.
 
Some data about FTDNA customers with R1a haplogroup from England:

This data is from 2015-16, I'm sure that now there are more samples:
...

Does anyone have an idea of the historical event that brought R-Z283*, R-Z280 and R-M458 in England ?
 


We can't be sure about Where Z283 originally was. Some believe it's descending clades(M458,Z280, Z284) split somewhere around Central Europe with the Corded Ware Culture.

There are plenty of Z280 ancient samples, most of which are found in Eastern/North-Eastern Europe. Currently there is no ancient pre-migration samples for M458. Z284 is mostly found in Scandinavia, and most clades are found in Western and Northern Europe.

Z280 in the Balkans is mostly from Slavic tribes. However, I believe many Baltic and Proto-Slavic tribesman were assimilated in the movements of Goths, so it could have been carried minimally by them. The same could be true in some cases of M458.

Currently it is too early to tell. We need more testing to define varied haplotypes to have an idea who specific clusters moved with.

In all probability my line came with Proto-Slavic tribes. However, my haplotype is part of a unique Albanian founder effect.

Currently my branch of L1029 is not found anywhere outside Albanians, with our Albanian forefather living sometime 1200 years ago. There is already some type of sub-clusters forming within Gheg/Tosk variants in the cluster.

So all we can definitely say in my case is the ancestor of this Albanian cluster was in East Europe/Central Europe some time between 1300-2100 years ago.

So in my case whether it was Slavic, Gothic or whatever, the Albanian haplotype looks to have formed somewhere around Dibra 1200 years ago, so likely entered in the later phase of Proto-Albanian development, taking part in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So we can say for sure it probably had nothing to do with Illyrians. My bet is most R1a in the Balkans is Slavic, Baltic, isolate German and Turkic clusters. Maybe some is Scythian and Sarmatian.

Sadly until more and more do full genome test we can't tell.
 
...
In all probability my line came with Proto-Slavic tribes. However, my haplotype is part of a unique Albanian founder effect.

Currently my branch of L1029 is not found anywhere outside Albanians, with our Albanian forefather living sometime 1200 years ago. There is already some type of sub-clusters forming within Gheg/Tosk variants in the cluster.

So all we can definitely say in my case is the ancestor of this Albanian cluster was in East Europe/Central Europe some time between 1300-2100 years ago.

So in my case whether it was Slavic, Gothic or whatever, the Albanian haplotype looks to have formed somewhere around Dibra 1200 years ago, so likely entered in the later phase of Proto-Albanian development, taking part in Albanian ethnogenesis.

So we can say for sure it probably had nothing to do with Illyrians. My bet is most R1a in the Balkans is Slavic, Baltic, isolate German and Turkic clusters. Maybe some is Scythian and Sarmatian.

Thanks for the information Dibran.
I have read about your "Dibra Cluster" on www.gjenetika.com and I must say that it is really interesting that it also appears among Tosk Albanians.
As for your bet about R1a in the Balkans, you are most likely right (given the forming ages and TMRCA of the present subclades).
That being said, my haplotype could also be part of the Albanian ethnogenesis since three of its current bearers now live in places where Albanians settled during the Middle-ages (Northern Greece [Gumenica], Sicily [Palermo] and Bulgaria [Stara Zagora]). But, all this is mere speculation for the moment as I could well end up being closer to the two other known bearers (living in the UK and Russia).
I am waiting for my BigY results and hope they will provide some useful information (as I do not even know the forming age of R-YP3994, though the TMRCA should not exceed 2400 ybp).
 

This thread has been viewed 46584 times.

Back
Top