About Basques and Slavic people

[kgnju]

Hello!I am new here.And I want to get answers from you experts to two questions:First,If Basques have the highest percent HG R1b,then why isn't their language IE family?Second,can we link the HG R1a1 to so-called "Slavic face" physically?Thanks!(Sorry for my poor English)

[Taranis]

1) Y-Haplogroup and language have nothing to do with each other directly, and ethnic groups speaking different languages may have the same Haplogroup.

2) I have no idea what your "Slavic face" is supposed to mean , but any physical features are totally unrelated to the Y-Haplogroup. R1a is widely distributed across Eurasia, and most common in eastern Europe and India.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Hello!I am new here.And I want to get answers from you experts to two questions:First,If Basques have the highest percent HG R1b,then why isn't their language IE family?Second,can we link the HG R1a1 to so-called "Slavic face" physically?Thanks!(Sorry for my poor English)

Haplogroup does not determine phenotype (physical appearance), autosomal DNA does.

[Maciamo]

1) I think that the best explanation for the high incidence of R1b among the Basques is that male lineages were replaced by a small group of R1b invaders who took up Basque language and customs (just like the Franks, Burgundians, Goths or Lombards adopted Latin).

These invaders would have become the new ruling elite (king + nobility) and practised polygamy. If all the ruling R1b men took in average 5 or 10 wives or concubines, after a few generations their male descendants would make up the majority of Y-DNA lineages. Their autosomal DNA though would be diluted each generation by the blood of the pure Basque women with whom they procreated. This explains why the Basques remained fairly distinct genetically, although partly blended in the wider R1b realm of Western Europe.

2) R1a1 is a very widespread haplogroup, found among Indians, Uighur Chinese, East and West Europeans and Middle Easterners. There is therefore no (strong) link with physical traits.

[Segia]

That's beacause R1b (or others) wasn't an exclusive IE marker (markers don't portray languages). R1b is a mutation, we don't know what language spoke its first carrier when it took place but possibly R1bs after a few centuries (or even decades) spoke different languages.

[kgnju]

Thank you for your answers and information!I've learnt more from that.

[Joro]

Hello!I am new here.And I want to get answers from you experts to two questions:First,If Basques have the highest percent HG R1b,then why isn't their language IE family?Second,can we link the HG R1a1 to so-called "Slavic face" physically?Thanks!(Sorry for my poor English)

1)Cameroon has high R1b ; why don't they speak IE?
2)

[Carlitos]

The R1b in the Basques is only slightly more in percentage than in the rest of Spain, is not to panic and their faces are super Spanish.


Mocedades musical group of singers.
Basque faces


The comedy group Trinca.
Catalan Faces


Jarcha musical group of singers and musicians.
Andalusian Faces


The photos are of great Spanish artists of the 70 and 80.

[how yes no 2]

Hello!I am new here.And I want to get answers from you experts to two questions:First,If Basques have the highest percent HG R1b,then why isn't their language IE family?Second,can we link the HG R1a1 to so-called "Slavic face" physically?Thanks!(Sorry for my poor English)

1) I think that the best explanation for the high incidence of R1b among the Basques is that male lineages were replaced by a small group of ...

perhaps carriers of IE language were R1a...
there are lot of R1b populations that do not speak IE language
while core of IE basis (iran, india, east europe) is dominantly R1a...
besides, R1a carriers do speak IE by far closest to established proto-IE...
so why on earth is it so difficult to accept that origin of IE languages might not be west European? why is it so much plausable to invent foolish theories like this one:

1) I think that the best explanation for the high incidence of R1b among the Basques is that male lineages were replaced by a small group of R1b invaders who took up Basque language and customs (just like the Franks, Burgundians, Goths or Lombards adopted Latin).

These invaders would have become the new ruling elite (king + nobility) and practised polygamy. If all the ruling R1b men took in average 5 or 10 wives or concubines, after a few generations their male descendants would make up the majority of Y-DNA lineages. Their autosomal DNA though would be diluted each generation by the blood of the pure Basque women with whom they procreated. This explains why the Basques remained fairly distinct genetically, although partly blended in the wider R1b realm of Western Europe.

pure nonsense...
you explain us that Basques genes were massivelly infiltrated by R1b people taking out their culture and language...till the point where proto-Basques are not recognizable and R1b in Basques became higher than in population that infiltrated them... you got to be joking, right?
...
did it ever occured to you that perhaps Basques, being more R1b than surroundings, speak original language of R1b (if there is such a thing)? Isn't that more logical assumption?

and by the way, what on earth does spread of languages have so much in common with genetics? A population consisting of some haplogroups may carry language from one place to another... but languages have their own spread patterns, that can differ from genetics...
e.g. assimilated or subjugated people accept foreign language.. for god sake Latin was spoken by few willages around Rome, and now we have derivatives of it as main languages in distant genetically unrelated areas as large as France, Romania, Spain, Portugal...

[how yes no 2]

There is lack of G2a in area that was settled by Basques, which attests that they are early settlers in Europe that didnot mix with later waves...


This nullifies Maciamo's theory of R1b taking over Basques genetics by mixing with them..

thus, it is likely that Basques were originally dominantly R1b

[Maciamo]

There is lack of G2a in area that was settled by Basques, which attests that they are early settlers in Europe that didnot mix with later waves...

This nullifies Maciamo's theory of R1b taking over Basques genetics by mixing with them..
thus, it is likely that Basques were originally dominantly R1b

Absolutely not. The Basques belong to quite specific subclades of R1b1b2a1, some found almost exclusively among the Basques and their neighbours. This strongly suggests a founder effect. My theory is that a small group of male Indo-European conquerors belonging to R1b1b2a1 lineages created an oligarchy (probably a polygamist one, as was most common in ancient times) and spread their Y-chromosomes quickly while adopting the local language of their wives and subjects.

Dienekes posted a new autosomal admixture comparison a week ago. It divides the genes of Paleolithic to Neolithic Europeans (referred to by Dienekes as "South Europeans") and those of "North Europeans" (presumably in great part Indo-Europeans).



This graph confirms that Sardinians descend overwhelmingly from the Paleolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of Europe (over 95% of their aDNA). This was further corroborated by a different study looking at craniofacial morphometric variations in Sardinian skeletons since the Neolithic. The dominant Y-DNA haplogroup in Sardinia is I2a1.

I2a1 is also found among the Basques and to a lower extent among other Iberians. MtDNA also shows connections between Basques and Sardinians.
My theory is that R1b1b2a1 progressively replaced most of the native Basque I2a1 lineages, while keeping the original Basque mtDNA lineages almost intact.
I2a1 was almost wiped out from the French Basques, contrarily to the Spanish Basques. Nevertheless, the French Basques have only about 60% of "South European" admixture in Dienekes' graph, not much more than the average French. The rest is all "North European" (i.e. Indo-European).

Why would the Basques have 40% of Indo-Europeans aDNA if they were originally R1b since the Neolithic or Paleolithic ? It doesn't make any sense. On the other hand, the admixture fits perfectly with my theory. If conquering Indo-European men took most of the Basque women for them (+ a few Indo-European women that may have accompanied them), then they would have created a new hybrid ethnic group with female Basque lineages and male Indo-European lineages. The 20% of imbalance in favour of Basque blood is easily explained by the survival of some Basque male lineages.

Given that I2a1 is more common in the Spanish Basques, I expect their aDNA to show a bit more "South European" (perhaps 70%) and a bit less Indo-European.

[how yes no 2]

Absolutely not. The Basques belong to quite specific subclades of R1b1b2a1, some found almost exclusively among the Basques and their neighbours.

which is exactly my point... their R1b didnot come from anyone else, cause only they have it....
my point is that this was probably very first R1b wave that settled Europe...

This strongly suggests a founder effect. My theory is that a small group of male Indo-European conquerors belonging to R1b1b2a1 lineages created an oligarchy (probably a polygamist one, as was most common in ancient times) and spread their Y-chromosomes quickly while adopting the local language of their wives and subjects.

ok, so from what population was that oligarchy if there is no similar R1b clade in anyone else...

This graph confirms that Sardinians descend overwhelmingly from the Paleolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of Europe (over 95% of their aDNA). This was further corroborated by a different study looking at craniofacial morphometric variations in Sardinian skeletons since the Neolithic. The dominant Y-DNA haplogroup in Sardinia is I2a1.

I have no clue how clusterisation of collected haplotypes can tell you anything about paleolithic and neolithic location of those...I suggest that Dienekes do same test for white males from areas of New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Boston, Dalas, Ontario, Vancouver... I bet clusterization will also there give some data that can appear to have meaning...

Situation is completely the same, since Europe was most likely completely populated from Iranian areas....

If conquering Indo-European men took most of the Basque women for them (+ a few Indo-European women that may have accompanied them), then they would have created a new hybrid ethnic group with female Basque lineages and male Indo-European lineages. The 20% of imbalance in favour of Basque blood is easily explained by the survival of some Basque male lineages.

sure and maybe there was guy from Sardinia who travelled a bit and stayed with Basques and thought this is cool place to live, so he stayed with them...but he kept in touch with his relatives in for example south France and Sardinia... so some more of them got married there... or I2a1 people lived there before Basques and than larger group of Basques came as first wave of R1b and joined them... or other way around small I2a1 group wondering around met large group of Basques and joined them...

what is your point with insisting that R1b took over Basques culture and genetics... it just makes no sense... since it is not really likely and it is impossible to prove set of events that you suggest...

Besides if group of R1b has taken over I2a1 community, why should you call Basques the I2a1 community... if it didnot leave major genetical impact and you just cannot know whose cultural impact is nowadays Basque language and culture...

there are other non IE R1b, so why on earth would you expect that certain genetic island of very specific R1b clade have to speak IE languages?

and furthermore why assuming that I2a1 was not speaking IE language... I haplogroup clearly came from Iran as I explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26060
as far as I see it they all did come from iran (that is from Africa but via Iran).... just first waves might have arrived before IE was spread everywhere in Iranian lands...

[Shetop]

This graph confirms that Sardinians descend overwhelmingly from the Paleolithic and Neolithic inhabitants of Europe (over 95% of their aDNA). This was further corroborated by a different study looking at craniofacial morphometric variations in Sardinian skeletons since the Neolithic. The dominant Y-DNA haplogroup in Sardinia is I2a1.

Regarding I2a1 in autosomal admixture from Dienekes my view is that I2a1 is surely South European today, because in the present time it is mostly found in South Europe. On the other side I don’t see how this kind of analysis can provide a clear insight into the previous migrations of some DNA.
And when talking about another study which confirms “similarity/continuity among Neolithic, Bronze Age and recent Sardinians” I have no doubt large part of Sardinian DNA has this continuity but it is I2a1 Y-DNA which I think has its origin yet to be proven.

Here is one reason which tells that I2a1 is not that simple as it looks:
10km from Sardinia is another island – Corsica.
Testing Y-DNA in Corsica showed that except I2a1, all other haplogroups have comparable frequencies.
And out of 34 samples from Corsica not one was I2a1, and I2a1 in Sardinia has frequency of 37%.

This kind of situation could point to much more recent arrival of I2a1, and it would also be plausible that this Y-DNA came to Sardinia from the South.