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Thread: More structure in haplogroup R1b

  1. #1
    Landlord
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    More structure in haplogroup R1b

    A new article about R1b:

    abstract:

    "More than 2700 unrelated individuals from Europe, northern Africa and western Asia were analyzed for the marker M269, which defines the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2. A total of 593 subjects belonging to this haplogroup were identified and further analyzed for two SNPs, U106 and U152, which define haplogroups R1b1b2g and R1b1b2h, respectively. These haplogroups showed quite different frequency distribution patterns within Europe, with frequency peaks in northern Europe (R1b1b2g) and northern Italy/France (R1b1b2h)."

    and full text: http://tinyurl.com/35h3usg
    Last edited by Maciamo; 24-10-10 at 09:14.

  2. #2
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Thanks Bernard, I was just going to post it.

    This is a very interesting study because it is the first to give a good overview of all the major subclades of R1b in Europe, Asia and Africa. The only region missing is the Indian subcontinent, except for a very small Pakistani sample.

    As we have Myres et al.'s article in front of us (try to open it with IE if it crashes in Firefox or Google Chrome), I would like you to have a good look at the distribution maps.

    One thing that I had wanted to ascertain for a while is whether my hypothesis of an Indo-European origin of R1b was indeed possible. To summarize, I think that haplogroup R1b* originated somewhere around the Caspian Sea (between northern Mesopotamia and the south-west of Central Asia) during the Ice Age. At the end of the Ice Age, one group moved more permanently around the southern Caucasus and Anatolia, where it evolved into R1b1b (P297), and another to the Levant and Africa, where it became R1b1a (V88).

    Approximately 7000 to 6000 years ago, a group of R1b1b from northern Anatolia (probably sheep and cow herders) crossed the Caucasus and blended with the native hunter-gatherer R1a population. The new culture that emerged from this fusion was to become the core of Indo-European people. I still have my doubt about which group originated the Proto-IE language. But it doesn't matter much as the language evolved quickly into numerous branches once these people left the Pontic steppe for Europe and Central Asia.

    This new article tends to confirm this hypothesis. The division between R1b1b1 (M73) and R1b1b2 (M269) is very telling. R-M73 is only found in the Caucasus (tiny remnant) and Central Asia, with peaks around the Bronze-Age Sintashta culture (south-east Urals) and around Tajikistan, north-east Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This matches exactly the archaeological sites of the Andronovo culture associated with the spread of Indo-European people and languages from southern Russia to Central and South Asia. R-M73 also follows perfectly the distribution of R1a1a in Central and South Asia.

    But what is really important here is that the only region where R1b-M73 and R1b-M269 converge is the same region, with hotspots also in the Caucasus and the south-east Urals. R1b-M269 is also found in Ukraine and Anatolia, a bit in Romania and Bulgaria, then abruptly jumps to the Alpine region, where it reaches its maximum in northern Italy and Alpine France.

    Better still, the first subclade of M269, i.e. R1b1b2a (L23), is also found in central Asia and the Caucasus, with smaller peak in central Anatolia and in the Alps. This would imply that the mutation L23 already existed before the Indo-Europeans migration to Europe. It is also the last common mutation of R1b lineages found in the Caucasus. The lineages in the Caucasus range from R1b1 to R1b1b2a, but are mostly R1b1b2a. This give us the timeframe of the settlement in the Caucasus, starting from the end of the Ice Age and ending with the dispersal of the Indo-European people.

    From the next mutation in the tree (L51/S167/M412), defining R1b1b2a1, the distribution is almost exclusively Western European. There are just residual percentages in the steppes. This mutation therefore indicate the split between the western and eastern branches of the Indo-European speakers. The split most certainly took place within the steppes, with the R1b1b2a1 cluster at the western end (around the Black Sea), and the R1a1a, R1b1b1 and R1b1b2a* in the Urals-Caspian region. The western branch (Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic) left the Black Sea region, probably in search of copper, tin and gold, and first invaded the copper-rich Balkans, the settled around the Alps, and took over all Western Europe.
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  3. #3
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    The second observation concerns the settlement of Western Europe.

    After the arrival of R1b1b2a1 in the Alpine region, some lineages push on to the Atlantic edge of Europe. Based on Myres et al.'s study, it appears that R-L11 lineages quickly split into two groups :

    - R-U106/S21 settled in northern Europe, from the Netherlands to south-west Norway. They would mix with the native I1 and I2b population and the northern (proto-Balto-Slavic) branch of the Indo-Europeans (R1a1a), who had already moved to Scandinavia, Germany and Poland during the Corded Ware period. The merger of these three groups would give birth to the Germanic people, who would re-expand south from the 4th century onwards. It still isn't clear whether the presence of U106 in the Alpine region is exclusively due to the Germanic migrations, or if U106 was already present there when R1b arrived in the early Bronze Age.

    - R-P312/S116 as spread to all Western Europe, from the Alps and southern Germany to France, Iberia and the British Isles. It can be associated with reasonable confidence with the Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers.

    P312/S116 can be further divided in three groups :

    -- U152/S28 occupies most of the Alpine region, Italy (especially centre and north), Switzerland, France, Belgium, southern England. It represents the Italic and Gallic Celtic branches.

    -- L21/S145/M529 represents mostly the Brythonic Celtic branch (although it originated around the Alps too), with the M222 subclades representing the Scottish and Irish Gaelic speakers.

    -- P312/S116* is mostly confined to Iberia and southern France. The high percentage of isolated P312/S116* in south-west Iberia suggests that this was one of the earliest migration from the Alps.


    The distribution of R-L11* is also interesting, as it only survived in the Alps, around the Germanic homeland (from Denmark to northern Poland) and in England. It is probably associated with the Germanic migrations too. I would say that it has a link with the ancient Saxons and migrated alongside U106.

  4. #4
    Landlord
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    I totally agree with your analysis. The maps of Myres paper provide strong evidence for a link between R1b and Indo-european migrations from the Steppes during copper age.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    Good stuff Maciamo

  6. #6
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The second observation concerns the settlement of Western Europe.

    After the arrival of R1b1b2a1 in the Alpine region, some lineages push on to the Atlantic edge of Europe. Based on Myres et al.'s study, it appears that R-L11 lineages quickly split into two groups :

    - R-U106/S21 settled in northern Europe, from the Netherlands to south-west Norway. They would mix with the native I1 and I2b population and the northern (proto-Balto-Slavic) branch of the Indo-Europeans (R1a1a), who had already moved to Scandinavia, Germany and Poland during the Corded Ware period. The merger of these three groups would give birth to the Germanic people, who would re-expand south from the 4th century onwards. It still isn't clear whether the presence of U106 in the Alpine region is exclusively due to the Germanic migrations, or if U106 was already present there when R1b arrived in the early Bronze Age.

    - R-P312/S116 as spread to all Western Europe, from the Alps and southern Germany to France, Iberia and the British Isles. It can be associated with reasonable confidence with the Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers.

    P312/S116 can be further divided in three groups :

    -- U152/S28 occupies most of the Alpine region, Italy (especially centre and north), Switzerland, France, Belgium, southern England. It represents the Italic and Gallic Celtic branches.

    -- L21/S145/M529 represents mostly the Brythonic Celtic branch (although it originated around the Alps too), with the M222 subclades representing the Scottish and Irish Gaelic speakers.

    -- P312/S116* is mostly confined to Iberia and southern France. The high percentage of isolated P312/S116* in south-west Iberia suggests that this was one of the earliest migration from the Alps.


    The distribution of R-L11* is also interesting, as it only survived in the Alps, around the Germanic homeland (from Denmark to northern Poland) and in England. It is probably associated with the Germanic migrations too. I would say that it has a link with the ancient Saxons and migrated alongside U106.
    Good points, Maciamo.

  7. #7
    Landlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I still have my doubt about which group originated the Proto-IE language.
    I think it is more logical to associate Pre proto IE language to the native hunter-gatherer R1a population, and caucasian language to the R1b herders. The new culture that emerged from this fusion was to become the core of Proto Indo-European people.
    Last edited by secherbernard; 29-08-10 at 15:31.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Aristander's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for break down of, the different sub divisions of R1b1b2, I have just gotten some more information on my Y-Haplogroup, So far FTDNA has told me that I was R1b1b2a1b P312+ L23+ U152- U106- M65- M153- L21- L1- with testing in progress for SRY2627, so any information about this lineage is of extreme interest to me.

  9. #9
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    Thank you very much for break down of, the different sub divisions of R1b1b2, I have just gotten some more information on my Y-Haplogroup, So far FTDNA has told me that I was R1b1b2a1b P312+ L23+ U152- U106- M65- M153- L21- L1- with testing in progress for SRY2627, so any information about this lineage is of extreme interest to me.
    SRY2627 is found mostly in Iberia, southern and western France, but not exclusively. Like all branches of P312 it is also found in southern Germany and around the Alps, because this is where the Italo-Celts first settled before expanding toward Western Europe. In any case, SRY2627 is rare in northern Europe, Italy and eastern Europe.

  10. #10
    Heber Heber's Avatar
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    Maciamo

    Thanks for the very interesting analysis of the Myres study.
    I have tried to make sense of the study data.
    If we do a hotspot analysis of Table S4 we get

    http://www.box.net/shared/hxp8ie25yv

    If we do the same for Table S2 we get

    http://www.box.net/shared/3vxrpcxib9

    Summarising both tables we get:



    Subclade Frequency Origin Age BCE
    M269 Ireland Turkey 11173±2386
    L23 Caucasus Caucasus 10093±1783
    M412 Ireland Danube 8870±1708
    L11 England Germany 9481±3926
    P312 (S116) Iberia Turkey 8742±1551
    L21 (M529) Ireland England 8691±1649
    M222 Ireland Ireland 3800±1217

    http://www.box.net/shared/f74c09ti18

    Possible migration scenarios for M222 gives

    http://www.box.net/shared/oqtrep2dng


    Of course we than have to interpret it all in the context of archealogy, language and historical record.

  11. #11
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    more structure in R1b

    Hello Maciamo I'm Chris and I realy like your blog. I'm interested in genetics
    and I have gathered a lot of data especially for my country of origin (Greece). I looked at your y-dna haplogroups table and you give a 12.0% of Greek R1b. Well I think that you should update your data about Greece since it is 17.0% which is a significant difference.


    R1b
    ref
    76
    21
    1
    20
    2
    1
    36
    4
    2
    132
    20
    3
    154
    20
    4
    69
    13
    4
    118
    27
    5
    41
    5
    6
    77
    9
    7
    92
    18
    8
    57
    8
    8
    171
    23
    9
    89
    23
    10
    1132
    193


    R1b : 193 / 1132 ( 17.0%)

    References
    1. The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y- Chromosome Perspective ( Semino et.al,2000)
    2. Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language (Rosser et.al,2000)
    3. Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure within a single ethno-national group ( Weale et.al,2001)
    4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects (Di Giacomo et.al,2002)
    5. High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations (Pericic et.al,2005)
    6. Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns (Bosch et.al,2006)
    7. Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan (Firasat et.al,2007)
    8. Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe ( Battaglia et.al,2008)
    9. Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (King et al.,2008)
    10. Coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et.al,2011)







  12. #12
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    I'm sorry for that here are the data again
    reference
    21/76 (1)
    2/20 (1)
    4/36 (2)
    20/132 (3)
    33/223 (4)
    27/118 (5)
    5/41 (6)
    9/77 (7)
    18/92 (8)
    8/57 (8)
    23/171 (9)
    23/89 (10)

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