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View Poll Results: Who spead R-U152 ?

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  • The (Proto-)Italo-Celts

    25 24.75%
  • The Hallstatt/La Tène Celts

    30 29.70%
  • Italic people, including the Romans

    14 13.86%
  • Hallstatt/La Tène Celts AND Italic people

    20 19.80%
  • Earlier Neolithic or Mesolithic people

    3 2.97%
  • Other (please specify)

    9 8.91%
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Thread: R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

  1. #26
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    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: Canada



    What origin is Scottish Borders, U152+, L2+, L20- (L2*), then?

  2. #27
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 BY3644/A9024
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    Country: United Kingdom



    Votadini

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votadini

    http://www.roman-britain.org/tribes/votadini.htm




    Quote Originally Posted by elly View Post
    What origin is Scottish Borders, U152+, L2+, L20- (L2*), then?

  3. #28
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    I doubt if U-152 is due mainly due to Germanic Langobards who may have been as few as 20,000 in an Italian population of millions.
    Maciamo's "Italic" theory seems to be the most economical and probable.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I doubt if U-152 is due mainly due to Germanic Langobards who may have been as few as 20,000 in an Italian population of millions.
    Maciamo's "Italic" theory seems to be the most economical and probable.
    it is not present in parts of UK & Ireland that were Celtic, also absent from Wales where according to Steven Bird one can expect more people originating from Roman soldiers... and it is present in Germanic settled parts of UK...

    and it was not only Langobards, north Italy was also settled by other Germanic people who could have carried it...e.g. Goths and Franks, Gepids...

    north Italy was for long time under control of various Germanic tribes...

  5. #30
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    The Goths were mostly eradicated in Italy and the Gepids were confined to a few villages.

    The Franks only influenced the aristocracy, and slightly at that.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I doubt if U-152 is due mainly due to Germanic Langobards who may have been as few as 20,000 in an Italian population of millions.
    Maciamo's "Italic" theory seems to be the most economical and probable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The Goths were mostly eradicated in Italy and the Gepids were confined to a few villages.

    The Franks only influenced the aristocracy, and slightly at that.
    you give numbers, you speak as pretty sure in what you claim...
    what historical sources make you so sure of Germanic tribes not being populous in north Italy?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    you give numbers, you speak as pretty sure in what you claim...
    what historical sources make you so sure of Germanic tribes not being populous in north Italy?
    Whatever their numbers in antiquity they have left surprisingly few descendants in modern Northern Italy.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Whatever their numbers in antiquity they have left surprisingly few descendants in modern Northern Italy.
    that is something else...

    people do change language...e.g. 2500 year ago latin was spoken only around Rome...today languages derived from latin are spoken in France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin America...

    many germanic people were already speaking latin, as it was widespread as english today...

    therefore, latin was likely lingua franca in occupied parts of Italy
    languages that are in use survive...

    besides, germanic settlements were in several waves... so the waves might have always merged into majority that speaks italian...

    also Y-DNA is about small part of genes that is inhereted in direct male line from grandgrandfather to grandfather, from grandfather to father, from father to son, and invading tribes often leave much higher imprint in Y-DNA than in the rest of the genes...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 22-12-10 at 23:45. Reason: had one zero more in estimation of how much ago was latin spoken only around little village called Rome

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I came across the Maghreb Y-DNA Project and had a look at the R1b results. The presence of 1 to 5% of R1b in North Africa is still fairly mysterious due to the absence of detailed study on the subclades of R1b found in that region. This is why I was glad to find that one of the project members tested for subclades and happens to be R1b1b2a1b4c (U152+, L2+). I checked the STR values of other R1b's and they all seemed quite similar and could well be R-U152+. That is what I expected. In other words it means that Maghreban R1b is of Roman/Italian origin.
    This is a faulty conclusion for this reason.. the Visigoths conquered this area in ancient times and have certainly left descendants into modern times within the local population and they are brothers to the Ostrogoths, Gepids, Heruli, and Lombards who controlled U-152 regions in Italy with elevated pct of U-152 into modern times.

    Secondly, up to ONE MILLION westerners were held as white slaves in the nations of the Mahgreb for hundreds of years. Entire villages were emptied by barbary raids for white slaves from england, france, iceland.. etc..
    The one way within a strict interpretation of Islam for a slave to escape a brutal and short life as a slave was to convert to Islam at which point he was (supposed to be) freed.. There are countless cases of many tens of thousands of western european males in this region converting to Islam and being freed into the local population to one degree or the other.

    Any R1b found in a modern sample from the barbary coast could very easily trace to a slave-convert of which countless are known to exist in this region from the barbary pirate/white slavery days of Islamic raids.

    There is really no mystery at all about low levels of M-269 varieties of R1b on the barbary lands, given the massive enslavement of european males there and the habit of some to convert and 'go native' to end their torment and mistreatment.

    see=White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million White Slaves

  10. #35
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    You have presented no proof that East Germanic peoples like the Goths (likely East) and Lombards (doubtful East) were strongly U-152.

    WE are entitled to our opinion too especially since you have only faulty historical sources and pious hope to go by.

    Where is the genetic journal or blog that supports your theory and it is only your theory.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You have presented no proof that East Germanic peoples like the Goths (likely East) and Lombards (doubtful East) were strongly U-152.

    WE are entitled to our opinion too especially since you have only faulty historical sources and pious hope to go by.

    Where is the genetic journal or blog that supports your theory and it is only your theory.
    I really dont have to, in order to dispell this particular conclusion, because I can show clearly that a massive number of western european males were taken as slaves into the Mahgreb over many hundreds of years and that they produced offspring and settled with families into the local populations to easily account for a significant portion of the R1b in the Barbary coast populations that does not in any way require ancient Italic introgression of U-152 or any other SNP of R1b.

    I cited a good book in "White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pellow and Islam's One Million White Slaves" that anyone who wants additional information of this topic can read to gain additional information to verify my claims.

    Now.. all that said - I am going to be polite and simply ask you not to respond to me, nor will I do so to you in the future.
    I do not think the rest of this site wants to waste time with bickering, and I do not say this as a insult to you, but merely as a statement of fact borne out in your posts..
    Your statements and insistence on constant references based NOT in Y-dna (which is what this particular message board is concerned with) but largely related to discredited racialist nonsense skull measurements and constant references to Phenotypes as being somehow relevant to Y-dna in any way shape or form makes your posts of no value but to spur arguments and bickering.

    I appreciate your right to your opinion, but when you are clearly deviating into phrenology and skin/hair/eye color instead of concentrating on Y-dna, I simply have no time to spare with such nonsense. I hope you can understand this, and lets discontinue contact, please.
    I promise that in return I will not post in response to any opinion you offer in any other thread and we can both express our opinion without pointless conflict that is not even related to the topic of Y-dna.
    thank you.

  12. #37
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    You have presented no valid evidence even in terms of Y-dna.

    THe Lombards, always a minority even in Northern Italy, brought in a lot of U-106 not U-152!

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus
    You have presented no proof that East Germanic peoples like the Goths (likely East) and Lombards (doubtful East) were strongly U-152.
    WE are entitled to our opinion too especially since you have only faulty historical sources and pious hope to go by.
    Where is the genetic journal or blog that supports your theory and it is only your theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    You have presented no valid evidence even in terms of Y-dna.
    THe Lombards, always a minority even in Northern Italy, brought in a lot of U-106 not U-152!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus
    All speculation and pseudo-history and not a trace of evidence.
    U-152 was a mutation that arose around the Swiss Alps about 3,500 years ago.
    You are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to spam-post the same thing over and over while adding no new content or thought, and simply repeating nearly exactly what you ranted as total opinion previously.

    You are acting like 'babby' who wants attention and cries until someone picks it up.

    I have numerous times declined to address something that I have already addressed in detail in a previous post because I thought it would be abusive to reiterate the exact same thoughts for someone who failed to read previous posts.

    You are a 'babby' who does nothing but spam-post and throw tantrums, after I specifically asked you not to bother responding to me with your nonsense about hair/skin color and skull measurements, on a DNA-based board.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by corinth View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to spam-post the same thing over and over while adding no new content or thought, and simply repeating nearly exactly what you ranted as total opinion previously.

    You are acting like 'babby' who wants attention and cries until someone picks it up.

    I have numerous times declined to address something that I have already addressed in detail in a previous post because I thought it would be abusive to reiterate the exact same thoughts for someone who failed to read previous posts.

    You are a 'babby' who does nothing but spam-post and throw tantrums, after I specifically asked you not to bother responding to me with your nonsense about hair/skin color and skull measurements, on a DNA-based board.

    Do the facts lose their value through repetition?

    I hate to see facts twisted by people with agendas.

    I think you are the spam merchant on this thread and your views are somewhat at variance with general opinion on this site.

    You are entitled to your view but all your arguments are weak to say the least.

    You add nothing relevant and new to the genetic debate and you were the first to throw a tantrum because you don't understand physical anthropology and call it phrenology "a la Lombroso"!

    You don't even understand the latest peer-reviewed genetic studies which point up the Northern Italians as more South European than the Spaniards and much more South European than North European.

    Are you suggesting Lombards were mainly South European genetically even though they originally spoke a Germanic language???

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Do the facts lose their value through repetition?

    I hate to see facts twisted by people with agendas.

    I think you are the spam merchant on this thread and your views are somewhat at variance with general opinion on this site.

    You are entitled to your view but all your arguments are weak to say the least.

    You add nothing relevant and new to the genetic debate and you were the first to throw a tantrum because you don't understand physical anthropology and call it phrenology "a la Lombroso"!

    You don't even understand the latest peer-reviewed genetic studies which point up the Northern Italians as more South European than the Spaniards and much more South European than North European.

    Are you suggesting Lombards were mainly South European genetically even though they originally spoke a Germanic language???
    Originally Posted by Maciamo
    In my opinion, the Bashkirs R1b descend directly from the Bronze-age Proto-Indo-Europeans. The only place where both M73 and M269 are both common is around the Caucasus and Anatolia. Based on my theory of the PIE moving to the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic, the first steppe invaders would have belonged to both M73 and M269, although the latter would have been much more dominant. It is possible that all the subclades as far as S116 and even S28/U152 developed in the steppes before migrating to Europe. The Bashkirs could represent the last leftovers from these PIE R1b, who would later been overwhelmed by neighbouring R1a from further north and east.
    I have no intent to carry on any discussion with you. I feel you are a lay-about with too much time on your hands who is unbalanced and fixates on phenotypes and skull measuring while trying to bring this medieval nonsense onto a DNA based board.

    Take it up with Maciamo. You assert on his site that - not as theory- but as certain fact, that U-152 arises in switzerland 3500 years ago. So you challenge the site owners own theory, not me.

  16. #41
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    Your whole debate is unsound since you have not deviated from your pet unjustifiable theory of linking Lombards and U-152.

    Why do you care about European matters anyway.

    At least I am of Italian extraction and take a deep interest in the subject of the Lombards and R1b-U152.

    All the autosomal and genome-wide studies mention the Southern European nature of North Italians while as I have repeated, as shown in the R1b map, R1-U152 is most characteristic of NORTH-WEST Italy not all of the north.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    it is not present in parts of UK & Ireland that were Celtic, also absent from Wales where according to Steven Bird one can expect more people originating from Roman soldiers... and it is present in Germanic settled parts of UK...

    and it was not only Langobards, north Italy was also settled by other Germanic people who could have carried it...e.g. Goths and Franks, Gepids...

    north Italy was for long time under control of various Germanic tribes...

    I am late to answer these affirmations (I don't put hypothesis into here, but only %s -
    I have a survey (I did not note the origin) about Ireland-G-B (3 localisations in Scotland, 4 in Ireland, 5 in England and 1 only in NORTH WALES/
    For N-Wales it says:
    R-U152: 7,5% (of R1b, it is to say: of 82% maybe>> 6% of the total) R-L21: 45%, R-U106: 9,2% -
    it is not big but not insignifiant, and Wales was celtized surely before the La Tène period, as Ireland so it is not surprising finding weak percentages of the U152 -
    in this survey they found only between 1,1 to 1,4% of the R1b that was U152 in Ireland, except EASTERN IRELAND: U152: 4% or R1b '3% of the total there)
    I add, when speaking about Wales, let's keep in mind there are 'archaïcal' regions as opposed to immigration regions (industrial South and extreme N-E) and that the central eastern Wales appears very "germanized" genetically (and partially phenotypically, this last point for the ones that have huge doubts about classical anthropology usefulness...

  18. #43
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    also Y-DNA is about small part of genes that is inhereted in direct male line from grandgrandfather to grandfather, from grandfather to father, from father to son, and invading tribes often leave much higher imprint in Y-DNA than in the rest of the genes...

    Yes, but it is true for invading warriors factions composed of only males - but when we speak about colonization by a big number of persons, all the genes carried by the newcomers (males & females) are transmitted to descendants...

  19. #44
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    is not big but not insignifiant, and Wales was celtized surely before the La Tène period, as Ireland so it is not surprising finding weak percentages of the U152 -in this survey they found only between 1,1 to 1,4% of the R1b that was U152 in Ireland, except EASTERN IRELAND: U152: 4% or R1b '3% of the total there)
    I add, when speaking about Wales, let's keep in mind there are 'archaïcal' regions as opposed to immigration regions (industrial South and extreme N-E) and that the central eastern Wales appears very "germanized" genetically (and partially phenotypically, this last point for the ones that have huge doubts about classical anthropology usefulness...
    How many of the Irish U152 had native Irish surnames? In general U152+ samples from Ireland tend to have a high level of non-native surnames. Eastern Ireland of course having the highest input from the 12th century AD onwards. The Pale been the area around Dublin. Thence to be "beyond the pale" implies Gaelic Irish society (eg. native Irish society) during the middle ages.

  20. #45
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    How many of the Irish U152 had native Irish surnames? In general U152+ samples from Ireland tend to have a high level of non-native surnames. Eastern Ireland of course having the highest input from the 12th century AD onwards. The Pale been the area around Dublin. Thence to be "beyond the pale" implies Gaelic Irish society (eg. native Irish society) during the middle ages.
    I agree (relying on you for the surnames because I have no big knowledge about the links concerning patronymics and HG's in the "green island" even if I know that some clans present very tight links with precise HG's there - I was just giving some percentages (for Wales upon all) found in small enough samples ...
    slàinte!

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    I have moved the discussion about the Veneti/Venedi/Wends etc. into a separate thread.

  22. #47
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    Ethnic group
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    i think it's italic.

    about the proximity of italic-celtic if steaming from a same ancestor, then we should consider italic tribes an elite who inhabitated italy, if not italians would look like central europeans.

    Where did the italic tribes entere Italy from?
    They entered from north-east italy, because previously the italic tribes have lived in Pannonia
    So, if there were a contact between italic tribes with celtic tribes it should be in Pannonia.

    Pannonia
    It is in present day western Hungary, eastern Austria, Northern Croatia, North-western Serbia, Slovenia, western Slovakia and northern Bosnia Herzegovina

  23. #48
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    just a little word
    I do not remember if it was on this thread or on one about map of Y-RU152/L28 but I red sometimes and somewhere of Hallstatt culture as it would be an homogenous ethnic culture: but my old readings "told" me the Western Hallstatt region was almost sure celtic but the Eastern Hallstatt region was something else ... ?
    yet we had the same problem with the Urnfields Culture -

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    Quote Originally Posted by elly View Post
    What origin is Scottish Borders, U152+, L2+, L20- (L2*), then?
    Celt? I'm just asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    i think it's italic.
    What does mean italic? U-152 is italic?

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