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View Poll Results: Who spead R-U152 ?

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  • The (Proto-)Italo-Celts

    25 24.75%
  • The Hallstatt/La Tène Celts

    30 29.70%
  • Italic people, including the Romans

    14 13.86%
  • Hallstatt/La Tène Celts AND Italic people

    20 19.80%
  • Earlier Neolithic or Mesolithic people

    3 2.97%
  • Other (please specify)

    9 8.91%
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Thread: R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What I wonder about on the map with the distribution of R1b-U152 is the area of Austria and Bohemia. This was the heartland of the early Hallstatt culture, but U152 is relatively rare there today. Could this be an artifact of the migrations period, or the sign of some completely different pattern?
    Hallstatt is a culturel term comprising time and place I believe - but someones, asH. HUBERT thought There was 2 Hallstatt regions arounsd the 'cradle': a western one, celtic according to him, and an other in the eastern part, maybe illyrian, I do not know - I believe U152 is not I-E (but I want not fight today about that, because I'm still "my bottom between two chairs") but furnished a lot of alpine people to the I-E acculturators - If Italics was coming from Hungaria or S.Austria-N.Croatia, so they was not Y-R-U152 as a majority - I mean the Celts or early celtized people was the majority of U152 bearers - maybe some Italics could have incorportated U152 bearers during the Urnfield movements (because there have been movements caused by a big enough demographic rising, despite the "no-movement-history" supporters -
    so it is not so astonishing that U152 is seldom in Austria (1- I was not too present at the beginning and 2- historic other movements can have erased the previous inhabitants...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - If Italics was coming from Hungaria or S.Austria-N.Croatia, so they was not Y-R-U152 as a majority - I mean the Celts or early celtized people was the majority of U152 bearers - maybe some Italics could have incorportated U152 bearers during the Urnfield movements (because there have been movements caused by a big enough demographic rising, despite the "no-movement-history" supporters -
    so it is not so astonishing that U152 is seldom in Austria (1- I was not too present at the beginning and 2- historic other movements can have erased the previous inhabitants...)
    I answer myself here: the 'italic hypothesis' for U152 is not completely out of work: U152 could have been swept towards the West by the deplacing of Italics and have been replaced by new HGs (Slavs? Illyrians?) in present day Pannonia (N-Croatia S-Austria) I have in mind (suddenly) the likely links between Lusacian culture and Villanova and the presence of some Y-U152 in Western Poland- what is sure is that Empire Romans was a mix of true Italics and other peoples, the weight of Italics decreasing from North to South so it remains hard to decide, U152 could have been present among Ligurians and Rhaetians too... I'm afraid it could by a question without answer...
    other question: when came the first Italics in Italy ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I answer myself here: the 'italic hypothesis' for U152 is not completely out of work: U152 could have been swept towards the West by the deplacing of Italics and have been replaced by new HGs (Slavs? Illyrians?) in present day Pannonia (N-Croatia S-Austria) I have in mind (suddenly) the likely links between Lusacian culture and Villanova and the presence of some Y-U152 in Western Poland- what is sure is that Empire Romans was a mix of true Italics and other peoples, the weight of Italics decreasing from North to South so it remains hard to decide, U152 could have been present among Ligurians and Rhaetians too... I'm afraid it could by a question without answer...
    other question: when came the first Italics in Italy ?
    according to Greek historians, they named Italy and it comprised of mainland italy only from the Po river to the toe. The only tribes the greeks associated with Italy at the time was Umbrians ( from the Po to rome ) and the osci ( from rome to the toe) there where sub-tribes like the sabines belonging to the umbrians as an example.

    The Ligures where not Italic at this time, nor where etruscans, venetics, latins, sicels, raeti and more

    I think this marker developed from non-italic people that where in northwest Italy as well as swiss and western austrian lands. there migration was always south or east at the start
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    according to Greek historians, they named Italy and it comprised of mainland italy only from the Po river to the toe. The only tribes the greeks associated with Italy at the time was Umbrians ( from the Po to rome ) and the osci ( from rome to the toe) there where sub-tribes like the sabines belonging to the umbrians as an example.

    The Ligures where not Italic at this time, nor where etruscans, venetics, latins, sicels, raeti and more

    I think this marker developed from non-italic people that where in northwest Italy as well as swiss and western austrian lands. there migration was always south or east at the start
    are you thinking Italic tribes colonized Italy in a single wave of advance? Do you distinguish between linguistic latin 'Qw-' (I think Sabines and Sabellians was of the same stock) and osco-ombrian 'P- italic speakers??? and what about the Sicels and Sicans ??? are you telling me Latins was not Italics??? or just their name was not known by Greeks at this time?

    reading anthropology books I red someone saying that about -3000 a distinct colonization took place in Italy coming by North (continent) an not by sea, that brought there (northern half of Italy but on the eastern side not the Thyrrenian Sea) at the middle-late Néolithic time phenotypes that he supposed was coming from the central Balkans, because they showed a mixture of 'dinaroid' wirh a kind of 'mediterranean' of more eastern affiliation than the previous ones present there before -
    another problem could be the language of these colonisators? I-E yet??? just a question arrived to soon for me at this moment.
    good evening

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    are you thinking Italic tribes colonized Italy in a single wave of advance? Do you distinguish between linguistic latin 'Qw-' (I think Sabines and Sabellians was of the same stock) and osco-ombrian 'P- italic speakers??? and what about the Sicels and Sicans ??? are you telling me Latins was not Italics??? or just their name was not known by Greeks at this time?

    reading anthropology books I red someone saying that about -3000 a distinct colonization took place in Italy coming by North (continent) an not by sea, that brought there (northern half of Italy but on the eastern side not the Thyrrenian Sea) at the middle-late Néolithic time phenotypes that he supposed was coming from the central Balkans, because they showed a mixture of 'dinaroid' wirh a kind of 'mediterranean' of more eastern affiliation than the previous ones present there before -
    another problem could be the language of these colonisators? I-E yet??? just a question arrived to soon for me at this moment.
    good evening
    Latins are not italics but where southern etruscan tribe that resided on the extreme southern etruscan border of the tiber river

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Latins are not Italics but where southern Etruscan tribe that resided on the extreme southern etruscan border of the tiber river
    How do you explain the fact that the Latin language was Indo-European while Etruscan (most experts see it as non-IE) was a completely different language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How do you explain the fact that the Latin language was Indo-European while Etruscan (most experts see it as non-IE) was a completely different language.
    Latin as we know it began 75BC, ancient Latin 450BC.

    The romans learnt to read and write and learn the alphabet from the etruscans, reinforced by the rule of the tarquins ( etruscans)

    Etruscans arrived in italy between 800-900BC, the latin came from the etruscan, between these years and 450BC and slowly developed into "modern" latin in 75BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Latin as we know it began 75BC, ancient Latin 450BC.

    The romans learnt to read and write and learn the alphabet from the etruscans, reinforced by the rule of the tarquins ( etruscans)

    Etruscans arrived in italy between 800-900BC, the latin came from the etruscan, between these years and 450BC and slowly developed into "modern" latin in 75BC
    That's nonsense, Zanipolo. Latin is an Italic language, it didn't "come from Etruscan", it evolved from Proto-Italic along with the Osco-Umbrian languages. The Romans adopted the Etruscan alphabet, yes, but so did most other people in Italy. That doesn't make them Etruscan however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That's nonsense, Zanipolo. Latin is an Italic language, it didn't "come from Etruscan", it evolved from Proto-Italic along with the Osco-Umbrian languages. The Romans adopted the Etruscan alphabet, yes, but so did most other people in Italy. That doesn't make them Etruscan however.
    Many sites are against what you say like ancientscripts.com, omliglot.com and many others.

    Lets look at this logically.

    IF you believe the roman historians, they came from trojans, Aeneas after 1080BC . These trojans spoke Luwian .......what is this?

    If you do not believe the story above, and you believe they where always where they where, then why no language has been found before 450BC.
    What is fact, is the etruscans arrived in italy around 800-1000BC they had a language already and written evidence is present from 700BC to 100AD
    - etrusan is not lydian language as lydian is a I-P language.
    - Etruscans got there alphabet from eurboea .
    - the romans learnt writing and took the etruscan alphabet from the etruscans and started to convert some letters around 600BC

    - The etruscan empire incorporated the latins for over 300 years, what did the latins speak at that time?
    - The tarquins ( etruscans) ruled Rome for over 100 years bringing in etruscan people, what did the latins speak at that time?
    - old latin language ranged from 450BC to 75BC.
    - Romans still got their sons to learn etruscan in school at Caere in 310BC
    - etruscan language changed writing system to left to right in 350 BC.

    Do you not think that the latins had no other language until around 600BC except etruscan as etruscan ruled these lands for so long.

    Its not as if etruscan was a weak language as they communicated with veneti who spoke a I-P language called venetic.

    what or who do you believe are the Latins ( Romans) at the time of the etruscan bronze age

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Many sites are against what you say like ancientscripts.com, omliglot.com and many others.
    I'm pretty sure they do not.

    Lets look at this logically.

    IF you believe the roman historians, they came from trojans, Aeneas after 1080BC . These trojans spoke Luwian .......what is this?
    That's not logical. That's what the Romans believed.

    Regardless of that, we also do not know what language the Trojans spoke. It's possible that they spoke an Anatolian language (such as Luwian).

    If you do not believe the story above, and you believe they where always where they where, then why no language has been found before 450BC.
    Actually, evidence for Latin dates back approximately 2 centuries further. Even then, just because no written samples are available before that time doesn't mean the language wasn't there? You don't really believe that, do you?

    What is fact, is the etruscans arrived in italy around 800-1000BC they had a language already and written evidence is present from 700BC to 100AD
    - etrusan is not lydian language as lydian is a I-P language.
    - Etruscans got there alphabet from eurboea .
    - the romans learnt writing and took the etruscan alphabet from the etruscans and started to convert some letters around 600BC

    - The etruscan empire incorporated the latins for over 300 years, what did the latins speak at that time?
    - The tarquins ( etruscans) ruled Rome for over 100 years bringing in etruscan people, what did the latins speak at that time?
    Just no. Just because they were dominated by the Etruscans doesn't mean the language disappeared from one day to another. To pick some different examples: after the Romans had taken Gaul, it took centuries for the Gaulish language to completely become extinct (which probably didn't happen until the early Frankish period). In the year 1795, Poland was participated between Prussia, Austria-Hungary and Russia and effectively disappeared off the map, and that didn't mean that the Polsh language disappeared over night.

    - old latin language ranged from 450BC to 75BC.
    - Romans still got their sons to learn etruscan in school at Caere in 310BC
    - etruscan language changed writing system to left to right in 350 BC.

    Do you not think that the latins had no other language until around 600BC except etruscan as etruscan ruled these lands for so long.
    What I wrote above.

    Its not as if etruscan was a weak language as they communicated with veneti who spoke a I-P language called venetic.
    I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

    what or who do you believe are the Latins ( Romans) at the time of the etruscan bronze age
    It would have been a language closer to Proto-Italic. We obviously don't know when Proto-Italic was spoken, but it must have been during the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodisk View Post
    Ich can say you why in corsica and sardinia were so much R1b-U152. Because when corsica would a part of france, many french people come to corsica.

    The demography of the native-corsican is very bad, so the genes of the french (with most R1b-U152) are dominant of corsica. Its fact.
    A friend of my parents is a real corsican (with french ancestors) and his wife a austrian. So many corsican with french ancestors, live on corsica.
    The statistics about the haplogroup distribution are from the new-time.
    So do you understand what i want so say?

    How exact it is on sardinia, i dont know. But i think we must include modern migrations, because all the haplogroup statistics, dont exclude this migrations f.e. since the 18. century.
    it is false all the way!!! lets be serious
    the mixture in Corsica was very light before the 1950s
    + the more MALE THE MORE corsican! look at their names: COLONNA/ROSSI/ANDRIETTI/ANOTINI/ORSATTI/VESVOCALI/ACQUAVIVA/PASQUALETTI... no end!!! more than 90% italian patronymics!
    the U152 in Corsica could be the result of a drift from post-Bell-Beakers and from people carried there at the time of the GENOVA kindom domination -
    yet, lets be serious!!!
    I agree enough with TARANIS as a whole - just: Austria receives surely some Germanics of the invasions (U106) and saw a lot of movements E>W, W>E - and I repeat that according to someones (HUBERT) East-Hallstatt was different from West-Hallstatt (I'm not competant to judhe here)
    for northern cultures around Denmark North Germany I suppose that the most of the Y-R1b was U106 and downstream...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it is false all the way!!! lets be serious
    the mixture in Corsica was very light before the 1950s
    + the more MALE THE MORE corsican! look at their names: COLONNA/ROSSI/ANDRIETTI/ANOTINI/ORSATTI/VESVOCALI/ACQUAVIVA/PASQUALETTI... no end!!! more than 90% italian patronymics!
    the U152 in Corsica could be the result of a drift from post-Bell-Beakers and from people carried there at the time of the GENOVA kindom domination -
    yet, lets be serious!!!
    I agree enough with TARANIS as a whole - just: Austria receives surely some Germanics of the invasions (U106) and saw a lot of movements E>W, W>E - and I repeat that according to someones (HUBERT) East-Hallstatt was different from West-Hallstatt (I'm not competant to judhe here)
    for northern cultures around Denmark North Germany I suppose that the most of the Y-R1b was U106 and downstream...
    names , surnames!!?
    colonna from aragonese
    andretti, pasquletti from lombardia
    orsatti, from umbria
    antonini vesvocali can be tuscan or roman
    rossi, is ligurian

    what does it matter,
    Napoleon Bonapart was italian from Corsica with a surname of Bonaparte, his father's name was Luciano ( Lucien in french) .

    What are you trying to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    names , surnames!!?
    colonna from aragonese
    andretti, pasquletti from lombardia
    orsatti, from umbria
    antonini vesvocali can be tuscan or roman
    rossi, is ligurian

    what does it matter,
    Napoleon Bonapart was italian from Corsica with a surname of Bonaparte, his father's name was Luciano ( Lucien in french) .

    What are you trying to say?
    what I say is for people that try to understand!
    1- I was answering to your affirmation of a majoritary FRENCH male pole in Corsica, that is not serious (the studies about Corsicans was made by foreign scientists, not frenchmen, and so I think the samples was made with inrooted Corsicans and not freshly arrived continental Frenchmen -
    2- I have studied the question of family rnames (in english: 'surnames') and can tell you that A NAME IS NOT ALWAYS A ONE PLACE ORIGIN THING: a lot of common words served to built names - the majority of corsican surnames has been forged by italian speakers according to general rules common in Italy as a whole, because italian language was the language of this island for a very long time, since the roman empire I think (latin evolved into neo-latin and after that into italian dialects- - only some names have a very located origin or dialectal form: it is true for italian names as for french names and even breton names: saying Colonna is from there, Luciani is from this precise place is a nonsense as saying that Dupont or Martin or Lefèbvre is from that precise place - the only surnames that indicate precise place of origin are the ones which have evident dialectal forms (North Italy: Meneghin, Del Pin, Faggin... / Sardigna: Puddu by instance) or are towns/places/ethnic names (Padovani, Lombardo, etc...)
    3- Telling me all these supposed italian local origins (even if I know some of your indications could be valid for a few of these surnames) undermines your non serious affirmation of a heavy impact of french males on the genetic making of true Corsicans (I am Breton, so I don't feel too concerned by some complex) - you can read yourself if you forgot...
    4- Corsican old population (they are living yet...) show phenotypes different as a whole from the continental French population (high dolichocephaly, different distribution of dark hairs hues, different distribution of brown hues, high presence of very dark eyes hues...etc... DIFFERENT ENOUGH TOO FROM THE BASIC CENTER ITALIAN POPULATION - crossings occurred but they were not so important and did not erase some peaculiar traits of Corsicans
    5- even if put among the italian toscan dialects, corsican dialect shows phonetic tendencies closer to the sardignan dialects (more yet in southern corsican) plus some southern France influences in north corsican -
    and I have always put more consideration into phonetics than into lexicals...;
    6- eveyibody (or almost) in France knows that Napoleon was a BUonaparte and that is family was not ancient in Corsica - all the way, Corsica was bought little before by France to Italy but this point is very futile in the present matter

    have a good night

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    3- Telling me all these supposed italian local origins (even if I know some of your indications could be valid for a few of these surnames) undermines your non serious affirmation of a heavy impact of french males on the genetic making of true Corsicans (I am Breton, so I don't feel too concerned by some complex) - you can read yourself if you forgot...

    I'm sorry ZANIPOLO!
    it is not you but THEODISK that affirmed male pole of Corsicans was heavily influenced by french fathers...
    so...
    I hold on for my other affirmations as a whole (for COLONNA I confess I don't know, maybe it is from Catalan origin, this fact doesn't destroy the global evidence of my answer concerning family names of Corsica

    do not be offensed
    buona notte

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    North-western Iberia was part of the La Tène culture, but only has a low percentage of U152.
    Excuse me, but the Celts of Culture La Ten did not reach to Iberia. Celts of Iberia belong to the first wave, Era Hallstatt.

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    Crucianietal2010Table-1.jpg


    It can be worth having a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Crucianietal2010Table-1.jpg


    It can be worth having a look.
    thanks, but what is the conclusion? (and I prefer the SNP naming to the old system)
    perhaps xould you compare what appears to be R-U152 France versus Corsica? (France have very different menas according to provinces) - it is just a male mediated %, that surely precedes the family names hereditary transmission - but your amiable post is so mysterious?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In my opinion, u-152 is indeed a marker of the la tene culture brought to Italy via France and Switzerland. Many reliable historical sources, such as Livy , speak of many invasions of the italian peninsula from French Gauls. Livy for one, states that Bellovesus, king of the bituriges cubi, rounded up more than 300,000 men from various different tribes across France ( bituriges cubi hailed from central France) and brought them across the alps to Italy. He brought men from the arverni, ambarri, aedui, senones, lingones, carnutes, aulerci/cenomani and his own bituriges cubi tribe(s). (Check map of Gauls people on Wikipedia to see in what regions of France these tribes where originally centred at.) you can also see on many maps of ancient Italy and on Wikipedia maps of celts the senones both in France ( near Belgium) and the same tribe in the Marche region of Italy. The italian Cenomani can be traced to the cenomani of western France. The Emilia-romana lingones can be traced to north eastern France near Belgian and German border, etc. it is said that when these men arrived in northern Italy in the modern Lonbardy region, they encountered another group of men that called the self the Insubres. Upon realizing that Insubres was also the name of a canton/district in the homeland of his fellow Aedui tribesmen that ventured to Italy with him, he decided to keep that areas name as Insubria. He then proceeded to found mediolanum, modern day Milan, within the limits of Insubria, and he did so happily and peacefully while melting in his 300,000 men with these similar Celtic men. Livy also speaks of brennus's sack of Rome which took place a few hundred years earlier, so we already know that la teen Gauls where making their way far into the italian peninsula long before. Thus these attacking Gauls where waging war on men that, 1000 years earlier they would have called their own blood brothers. The Roman Empire was built by men that shared the same looks and genetic markers as these invaders, separated by a few hundred/thousand years. It is thus my strong conviction that the Latins where Gauls that arrived in Italy long before their cousin invaders and got separated/lost from them with time....and when they met up again, they no longer knew who they where due to relative isolation, nor had the knowledge of genetics to realize they where one and the same. Maybe 800 or a few thousand years before brennus's and his Gauls, a similar troop of men, cousins or genetic brothers to Gauls, left their la tene origin point near the Meuse/Loire/Moselle rivers in northeast France at an early point, crossed the alps, made their way over time to Rome, and set up a competing empire. This makes sense because the overwhelming majority of Italians are U-152. Why? Maybe because the Gaulish people's where very high concentration and only had u-152 when they came over in their small sample size. So the massive success and population growth that happened in Italy spawned from a few men, after generations, became MANY men all with u-152 subclade as was found in their bottleneckec small group of ancestors, all across north-central Italy, cisalpine Gaul, the so-called "Germanic" settlement areas, or more like Gaul/French settlement areas. The only inconsistency in my theory is that P312 ( the Iberian S-116) is found in high concentrations in Spain, Portugal, AND France, but at very low concentrations In Italy. If the Gauls did go from France to Italy, wouldn't italy also have traces of the Iberian/ west French S-116 lineage? Maybe not, if the s-116 migrated to France at a later time, after the departure of many U-152, a movement to fill in the "vacuum" hole of the massive U-152 departure. Needless to say, u-152 is still found in 15-20% of all areas of France and at a significantly higher frequency in Switzerland and north Italy.... Maybe this is why Cesar was always allied with lingones and aedui and Belgian remi against all the other Gaulish tribes, maybe in the end they where all the same thing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    what I say is for people that try to understand!
    - the only surnames that indicate precise place of origin are the ones which have evident dialectal forms (North Italy: Meneghin, Del Pin, Faggin... / Sardigna: Puddu by instance) or are towns/places/ethnic names (Padovani, Lombardo, etc...)
    The dialectual forms of surnames is apparent in Italy , by this method
    Italian is a dialect of the italian regional language and they are a dialect of latin ...known as vulgar Latin.

    Surnames in Veneto in friuli are historically like this.
    In Veneto ...endings in IN is the original form with endings in ER next . In friuli its the opposite.
    In Venice proper the original surname endings in IGO

    Then there is the surname change used at the time of the Venetian Republic due to the system of only the first son getting all the family wealth, other sons surnames ( ONE METHOD ) where changed to indicate their body ( once they left the home)
    large frame/height endings in OTTO
    medium frame/height endings in OTTI
    small frames/height endings in ONI

    There where other methods, all due to heridary constraints.
    Under ITALY from 1866....many had ( forced ) to add a vowel, usually the Tuscan I or the northern O.
    In regards to corsica, they would have used and I or E ending due to Genoese influence and the Sardinians usually have endings in U

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Latins are not italics but where southern etruscan tribe that resided on the extreme southern etruscan border of the tiber river
    Latins are an Italic people.

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    R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

    R1b-U152/S28 is the dominant Y-DNA hp of all the Italics people: Umbrians, Latins, Sabins, Samminetes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    R1b-U152/S28 is the dominant Y-DNA hp of all the Italics people: Umbrians, Latins, Sabins, Samminetes...
    If the Samnites were mostly R1b-U152 why does modern Benevento in the old Samnite heartland have only 5.5pc of U-152 according to the 2013 Boattini study and Aquila on the eastern edge of Sabine country only 13pc?

    Foligno in Umbria has rather more, at 24.5pc, but that is still far from a majority of R1b-U152.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    if the Samnites were mostly R1b-U152 why does modern Benevento in the old Samnite heartland have only 5.5pc of U-152 according to the 2013 Boattini study and Aquila on the eastern edge of Sabine country only 13pc?

    Foligno in Umbria has rather more, at 24.5pc, but that is still far from a majority of R1b-U152.
    Due to Roman Empire (people from all parts of the Empire went to Italy and viceversa), to medieval internal and external migrations, and to the neolithic farmers non-indoeuropeans absorbed by the Italic people. Italian pensinsula, after the fall of Roman Empire, underwent a process of depopulation.

    There is also an historical episode in particular, according to which the Ligurians of Garfagnana (Southern Liguria-Northern Tuscany) were deported-brought in Samnium (Avellino and Benevento area) around 180 BC, and the Samnites were deported in Garfagnana (not very sure of the last part).

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    [QUOTE=binx;409597]Due to Roman Empire (people from all parts of the Empire went to Italy and viceversa), to medieval internal and external migrations, and to the neolithic farmers non-indoeuropeans absorbed by the Italic people. Italian pensinsula, after the fall of Roman Empire, underwent a process of depopulation.

    QUOTE]

    All conjecture..where is your evidence?

    The relative lack of U-152 in modern Aquila, Campobasso and Benevento may only reflect the fact that R1b-U152 was NEVER prevalent hereabouts.

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    @Vallicanus

    This is the Biasutti map on Percentage of blonds in Italy. Very high percentage in Benevento area.




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