R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[Vallicanus]

There are no Gallo-Italics dialects communities in Calabria. In Calabria there is only an Occitan language village, Guardia Piemontese (In the past there were many more Occitan language villages in Calabria, but They were decimated by the Catholic Church because these villages were Protestant).

Occitan speakers brought R1b U152 also.

 

[binx]

Occitan speakers brought R1b U152 also.

Probable They are R1b U152, but They are not anyway a Gallo-Italics community.

Guardia Piemontese has today 1546 residents, only few of them are of Occitan origins. Because They were really decimated by Roman Catholic Church, It's an historical fact, and surely not a "convenient argument".

Hard to think that They had an important role in spreading the R1b U152 in Calabria.

 

[Vallicanus]

North Italian artisans and merchants settled all over southern Italy and Sicily and Franco-Provencal speakers were settled by Charles of Anjou in the old Samnite areas of southern Italy.

Hence more R1b-U152.

This Arpitan area in the mountains of southern Italy was once bigger, from Ariano and Montaguto northwards to Volturara and Castelluccio.

 

[MOESAN]

@Vallicanus

This is the Biasutti map on Percentage of blonds in Italy. Very high percentage in Benevento area.

this map is reliable, roughly said (or WAS...) - but he counted moderate light browns (mix) into his blonds: Italy HAD as a whole a bit less blonds, almost everywhere: but the general relative opposition of regions remains valuable I think - but 'blonds' is not the miraculous unique key to understand Italy populating
good evening

 

[MOESAN]

in History, very few tribes were decimated, spite the affirmations of "winners" or "loosers" -
concerning U152 among Samnites or close tribes, keep in mind they colonized regions which were already well populated - upstreams SNPs of Y6R1b were and are still common enough in S-Italy, more than in N-Italy, a,d these "old" R1b's are balanced or overflood by S-E Europe (and Near-Eastern) HGs - and Greeks maintained a strong presence too, with the same SE HGs -
the new survey presented by Dienekes about Italy mix a lot of regions in N-Central and S-Central+S-Italy, so, no possibility to go into details about History
all the way, I noted: U152 compared with others
NCIt: U152/total : 19,5% - U152/all R1b : 51,7% - U152/P312 downstreams: 65,2%: not negligeable
SC+SIt : 8,6% - : 33,5% - : 50,3%: " "

 

[adamo]

most people now believe ligurians where not aboriginal and that they where celtic , possibly gaulish in origin, peoples such as the Ingauni/Euganei, Stoeni, Statielli, Taurini, Vertamocorii, Lepontii, Libici, Salluvi, Llvates even apuani and Friniates, Salassi, where all of celtic, even gallic stock, all dating from different invasion eras (other than the etruscan extension into swiss alps raeti people.)

 

[adamo]

there was golasecca celts, polada culture, several other celtic cultures in the Veneto region, then villanovan culture, several gallic invasions (Bellovesus and his many gallic tribes from all across France.) Most of italian R1b is u152 which peaks in the north-central italy,half of swiss males and 20% of french males. the focal point is switzerland and the La tene culture which spread out of the original home of gauls (switzerland). think of the ligures tribes, which had long dwelt in extreme north-western italy. Ligurian toponyms and place names can be found across northwest italy, parts of switzerland and southeastern france, near the Var regions.

 

[zanipolo]

there was golasecca celts, polada culture, several other celtic cultures in the Veneto region, then villanovan culture, several gallic invasions (Bellovesus and his many gallic tribes from all across France.) Most of italian R1b is u152 which peaks in the north-central italy,half of swiss males and 20% of french males. the focal point is switzerland and the La tene culture which spread out of the original home of gauls (switzerland). think of the ligures tribes, which had long dwelt in extreme north-western italy. Ligurian toponyms and place names can be found across northwest italy, parts of switzerland and southeastern france, near the Var regions.

you forgot the important este culture

 

[adamo]

somewhere near switzerland/east central france is where the particular subgroup of R1b most italians have originated. Este was an important celtic culture in Veneto not far from where the Veneti would arrive, the adriatic veneti where either paphlagonian (north-central) turks arrived from the east mediterranean by boat, or where also gallic celts from Britanny, France, as their northern neighbors the Carni where descended from the western french Carnutes , and many tribes from western france (carnutes,aulerci cenomani and possibly veneti) descended to italy, from there.

 

[zanipolo]

somewhere near switzerland/east central france is where the particular subgroup of R1b most italians have originated. Este was an important celtic culture in Veneto not far from where the Veneti would arrive, the adriatic veneti where either paphlagonian (north-central) turks arrived from the east mediterranean by boat, or where also gallic celts from Britanny, France, as their northern neighbors the Carni where descended from the western french Carnutes , and many tribes from western france (carnutes,aulerci cenomani and possibly veneti) descended to italy, from there.

NO turks in anatolia before 600AD.

only people in anatolia around the late bronze-age where hittite, trojans, thracians, myceneans, assyrians, mysians and colchisians and others i failed to mention

cenomani where from southern france , neighbours of the volcae

yes, carni where from western france, modern gascony area.

 

[adamo]

u know thats what i meant man, those anatolian cultures, and cenomani main group was from northwestern france then migrated to Bresci area lombardy/emilia romagna where they settled withe insubres gauls.

 

[adamo]

According to Livy (v. 34), they (Aedui) took part in the expedition of Bellovesus into Italy in the 6th century BC.
Before Caesar's time they had attached themselves to the Romans, and were honoured with the title of brothers and kinsmen of the Roman people. When the Sequani, their hereditary rivals, with the assistance of a Germanic chieftain named Ariovistus defeated and massacred the Aedui at the Battle of Magetobriga, the Aedui sent Diviciacus, the druid, to Rome to appeal to the senate for help. But his mission was unsuccessful.


An extract speaking of the aedui, Gauls of east-central France. Long before bellovesus's invasion with the aedui, and long before cesar's time, they had attached themselves and had been honoured with the title of brothers and kinsmen of the roman people. Also the Ambarri, who where considered kinsmen/brothers of the aedui made the journey to Italy as well.

They are mentioned by Livy (v. 34) with the Aedui among those Galli who were said to have crossed the Alps into Italy in the time of Tarquinius Priscus.

It seems quite clear at this point that most invaders from the alps to Italy where, in their quasi totality, Gallic types.

 

[adamo]

Also, when bellovesus arrived in north Italy he moved to the Lombardy region where he founded mediolanum (modern day milan) which was the name of a capital city from where some of his men or he had come from. There where two other cities, both in France, called mediolanum. Mediolanum Santorum (modern day Saintes in extreme west-central France in ancient bituriges vivisci territory.) the other was mediolanum aulercorum ( modern day Evreux in north-central France near aulerci/cenomani territory, the French department of Eure). I personally also suspect the extreme western veneti Gauls of France to be ancestors of some Celtic invaders (Gallic) to modern day veneto province Italy, even though there is no concrete evidence, I feel the western French veneti Gauls must have migrated to northeastern Italy.

 

[Sile]

http://www.ancestorcentral.com/archives/821

As per the conference yesterday, it was announced that

U152 Originated in Central Germany ...................seems like prior to Germanic people in the north

U106 Originated in East Germany ............southern East Germany, next to Czech

Z195 Originated in Central France ..............seems like Dijon area

P312 originated in Hungary ..................old Pannonian area

L21 originated in Kent England ............

M222 originated in Ireland

L11 originated in Bulgaria

P311 originated in Romania

M269 Originated in Western Anatolia

 

[Angela]

http://www.ancestorcentral.com/archives/821

As per the conference yesterday, it was announced that

U152 Originated in Central Germany ...................seems like prior to Germanic people in the north

U106 Originated in East Germany ............southern East Germany, next to Czech

Z195 Originated in Central France ..............seems like Dijon area

P312 originated in Hungary ..................old Pannonian area

L21 originated in Kent England ............

M222 originated in Ireland

L11 originated in Bulgaria

P311 originated in Romania

M269 Originated in Western Anatolia

Sile, do you have text other than what appears in the blog post? Or are you taking this from the map?

It's true that the movement into Europe seems to be directly from Anatolia into south eastern Europe. (I don't see any indication in the map of any steppe movement.) However, the trajectory for M269 appears from the angle to go back toward perhaps the northern Levant. If we follow the map, and the poster is correct that Dr. Hammer is saying it was in the Caucasus in the early Neolithic, then aren't we talking about a group that moved south and then later north west, but somehow got stalled in the area of the Balkans? It seems a little odd if that was indeed the path; a movement south after the Neolithic right into the heart of farming territory and yet the clade couldn't expand...moved into the Balkans, and still didn't undergo expansion until the Bronze Age. It will be interesting to see how it is explained.

I'd also love to know the dates and subclades for those sites near the French caves...

 

[Sile]

Sile, do you have text other than what appears in the blog post? Or are you taking this from the map?

It's true that the movement into Europe seems to be directly from Anatolia into south eastern Europe. (I don't see any indication in the map of any steppe movement.) However, the trajectory for M269 appears from the angle to go back toward perhaps the northern Levant. If we follow the map, and the poster is correct that Dr. Hammer is saying it was in the Caucasus in the early Neolithic, then aren't we talking about a group that moved south and then later north west, but somehow got stalled in the area of the Balkans? It seems a little odd if that was indeed the path; a movement south after the Neolithic right into the heart of farming territory and yet the clade couldn't expand...moved into the Balkans, and still didn't undergo expansion until the Bronze Age. It will be interesting to see how it is explained.

I'd also love to know the dates and subclades for those sites near the French caves...

on text....not yet....need about a week or 2

The praise on G2a is interesting

and also the emphasis on K ( ydna)

and ..what is E1bibi?
The cave in France yielded 20 G2a samples and 2 I2a samples. The cave in Spain yielded 5 G2a samples and 1 E1bibi. In Germany 1 G2a3 and 2 F*.

 

[adamo]

So it seems according to that map that U-152 and U-106 originated not far from each other; u-106 originating in the north and east of Germany towards Czech Republic and Poland. From here it would eventually spread to Austria, Czech Republic, Germany,Denmark,England,holland; parts of Norway and Sweden. U-152 though seems to have originated in central Germany and moved towards Italy,france and the Iberian peninsula. U-152 would turn into L-21 near England and finally M222 by the time we reach Ireland. Clades of R-S28 would travel from France to he Iberian peninsula.

 

[adamo]

Don't know were L11 originated but it is most frequent in south-central England

 

[adamo]

It seems that south-central English in General have more Germanic lineages whereas the Irish and scots (particularly and by far more the Irish) belong to Italo-Celtic S116 lineages.

 

[American Idiot]

it is not present in parts of UK & Ireland that were Celtic, .

EVERY part of the UK and Ireland was Celtic at one time or another and yes R1b-S28 is found in southern Ireland, in the Scottish Highlands and various other parts of the Isles at low frequencies. Different types of Celts settled in the Isles at various times. Some came from Gaul, again at various stages, and this accounts for much of the _R1b-S28 found in Britain plus the fact that there were a minority of British tribes in Ireland too, like the Brigantes. Not to mention that names of some tribes were common in both Gaul and Britain like the Parisi (Paris) and Atrebates (Belgic tribe)

As for R1b-S28 found in the south and east of England, while some of it may be possibly attributed to Romans,there is no doubt that much of it also would be from both the Gaullish La Tene tribes who settled there earlier and the Gallo-Belgic tribes who came in not much later.

There have been artifacts such as chariot burials in the north of England (Yorkshire) that prove to archeologists there was at least a definite cultural connection between that part of England and the Marne region of France/Gaul in pre-Roman Britain.

You may be trying to say that R1b-S28 had highest concentration in the East of Britain which was where most Germanic tribes settled the heaviest too. But it's also where the Gaulish and La Tene tribes who migrated to Britain were concentrated the most as well. And they would have carried R1b-S28 in large number.

Since the Anglo-Saxons came from NW Germany/Netherlands it doesnt make sense that a large portion of the R1b-S28 found in Britain came from them, although I do agree that at least some of them would have carried it just for the fact it can be found throughout Germany at varying frequencies.