R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[Vallicanus]

As far as I know the Celts dispersed Etruscans before sacking Rome

And the Romans got revenge by conquering the Gauls and other Celts south of Hadrian's Wall.

 

[Ed the Red]

For sure the Romans took revenge. That was an ongoing war for centuries. Don't forget that Hannibal used Celts in his army and Elephants coming through the Alps (Celtic homeland) to attack Rome again.
Yes Rome conquered almost all Celts but didn't quite make it to North scotland or Ireland. There was also a second wall even above Hadrian's, it was Antonine wall to keep out those pesky Picts! Haha. Scottish/Irish Gaels were one of the strongest celtic tribes, I mean after all that's why they remain to this day. And basically were totally used to help England in forming Britain to be a world powerhouse.

 

[Ed the Red]

But obviously mentioning powerhouse, Rome was unmatched at a point. But that's what happens when an empire gets spread thin. Funny how their motto of "Divide and Conquer" is ultimately what brought their demise.

 

[Parafarne]

Please explain how modern Tuscany which was ancient Etruscan territory certainly as far north as the Arno has more R-U152 than the Lazio area around Rome.

Look Romans were a central italian IE speaking group that shared the region with other haplogroups too, remember I said romans were originaly R1b-u152 but not the only group, north italy were peopled by other groups too that belonged to u152 so we should know that at the time of Roman republic italy was a tribal society, you are right that italy were a mix of different haplogroups in that time but the discussion is which haplogroup they belonged ORIGINALLY!

 

[Parafarne]

Another good logic that U152 is equally Gaulish and Roman is that in division of newly conquered Europe Germanics got N Europe, L21 moved to NW Europe, DF27 got SW Europe so Alps vicinity would have been left void of IEs if U152 would have moved to N. Italia, so it makes sense that they occupied eastern France, Alps and N. Italia from early on.

 

[Ed the Red]

My guess is Gaulish from the settlement of cisapline Gaul. If there is anyway to test a sample in the right area of Italy before Celts were even established then you have your answer. The Celts were in Rome for a very long time though, I think it was in the 300's B.C. that they apparently sacked Rome!

 

[Ed the Red]

I just googled, apparently it was 390 B.C. so basically 400 B.C.

 

[spqr]

I used to post here under another handle, but I may be remembered under my pf 4363 designnation.
I am 73, and have been a spiritualist and shaman for many years, so, take the following with a roman grain of salt. I am certain of its truth.
I was born in England, and we come from Yorkshire, near Hadrians wall.
Once on a " journey", I was given three questions that would be answered truthfully.
Again, I am u 152 pf4363.
1. Who was my original British forefather answer: Quintus Petillius Ceriallis, Commander of the 9th Legion, governor of Roman Britania.
2. Who was my original British mother?
Answer.. She was Selgovae, a tribe by Hadrians Wall.
I had another question, but does not pertain to this.

So, perhaps someone wants to check the home town of Ceriallis, which is on wikipedia.
There is also a Roman legionaries grave in britain, which is apparently u 152.. But service in the Legions, does not mean roman.
A " royal" family should be of some interest. I think Cerialis may have been an adopted Etruscan, notsure. Anyway, just wanted to mention this, as it is important to me.
Rich

 

[Salento]

I used to post here under another handle, but I may be remembered under my pf 4363 designnation.
I am 73, and have been a spiritualist and shaman for many years, so, take the following with a roman grain of salt. I am certain of its truth.
I was born in England, and we come from Yorkshire, near Hadrians wall.
Once on a " journey", I was given three questions that would be answered truthfully.
Again, I am u 152 pf4363.
1. Who was my original British forefather answer: Quintus Petillius Ceriallis, Commander of the 9th Legion, governor of Roman Britania.
2. Who was my original British mother?
Answer.. She was Selgovae, a tribe by Hadrians Wall.
I had another question, but does not pertain to this.

So, perhaps someone wants to check the home town of Ceriallis, which is on wikipedia.
There is also a Roman legionaries grave in britain, which is apparently u 152.. But service in the Legions, does not mean roman.
A " royal" family should be of some interest. I think Cerialis may have been an adopted Etruscan, notsure. Anyway, just wanted to mention this, as it is important to me.
Rich

I respect your spirituality, and your beliefs. I’m Italian. This are my Brit results from LivingDNA, who knows, maybe our Ancestors knew each other, served on the same Legion, and were drinking buddies.

 

[howyesno]

it doesnot look Celtic at all due to UK spread where it looks as a force opposing/conquering Celtic settlements from east towards west...
its either Germanic or it spread with Romans..

its unlikely that we would see Romanic settlements in Ireland or in UK north from Hadrian's wall, so Romanic spread is also questionable.
furthermore it is strong in parts of Germany that were never part of Roman empire...


so it looks mostly germanic to me...
imprint on UK looks more germanic than celtic
Iberia hotspots match Suebi and Vandals..
Vandals being pushed by conquering Visigoths somewhat to west and also to south to north Africa (see rightmost picture showing kingdom of Vandals in north Africa, Sardinia and Sicily) and note some spread present in north Africa, Sardinia and Sicily as well)

from Germany to France could be spread by Franks.. note here that Corsica with high spread was part of frankish kingdom while neighbouring Sardinia with low spread was not part of Frankish kingdom..
note that north Italy, Croatia and Slovenia with somewhat elevated spread were as well parts of frankish kingdom..note that Vasconia which was not integral part of frankish kingdom has low spread as well

north Italy was also conquered and settled by several Germanic tribes..


Asia minor, Greece, Romania and Albania is original starting point of the spread 3-5000 years ago ..as witnessed by older R1b (see the map of ht35 bellow) and also by myth of origin of Franks that relates them to Asia minor and Troy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Mythological_origins)

spread from Asia minor suggests that Etruscans carried it as welll (not necesserilly as dominant)...
north Italy is thus explained as multiple waves of settlement...first Etruscans later Lombards, Franks and others..

for instance R-Z56 being spread by people from Asia minor mostly Etruscan, R-L2 spread by Franks and Vandals and R-Z36 by Langobards

Etruscans

Lombardy

 

[Ed the Red]

Ok ok, I looked at your first map of distribution of the U152 DNA and it basically coincides perfectly with the Roman designated province of Cisalpine Celts of northern Italy and the Transalpine Celts just on the northern side of the Alps( I don't think I have heard any mention of the Transalpine province of Celts yet on this site, by the way). As I mentioned before Rome was sacked in 390 B.C. so that is 390 years of mixing already until Rome was the dominant Power of Europe. I'm sure everyone has an example of meeting someone from northern Italy with Celtic features ie. Red hair, fair skin!

 

[Ed the Red]

U152 is its own distinctive haplogroup for obvious reasons of mixing of Celtic with Latin tribes that came from the Mediterranean.

 

[alexfritz]

Ok ok, I looked at your first map of distribution of the U152 DNA and it basically coincides perfectly with the Roman designated province of Cisalpine Celts of northern Italy and the Transalpine Celts just on the northern side of the Alps( I don't think I have heard any mention of the Transalpine province of Celts yet on this site. As I mentioned before Rome was sacked in 390 B.C. so that is 390 years of mixing already until Rome was the dominant Power of Europe. I'm sure everyone has an example of meeting someone from northern Italy with Celtic features ie. Red hair, fair skin!

no clue about the op, but from what i know light skin (homozygous derived at rs1426654/rs16891982) is a neolithic anatolian_farmer feature and so far in aDNA none of the celts actually had red-hair surprising since all of them are briton-celts (driffield-terrace/rathlin) in fact most were dark-haired(+some brown/blonde) and prevailing dark-eyed; i reckon that more extensive data will show whether ginger and celts go hand in hand or just false translations;

 

[Ed the Red]

There is Roman and Greek description s of Celtic red hair. The Irish and Scots are known for red hair they are the last remaining Celtic people

 

[Ed the Red]

My great grandfather was from Scotland, he had red hair

 

[Ed the Red]

Lots of Germans have red hair as well. Alot of Belgians. There's too much irrefutable evidence to really discuss it. It is a northern/Northwest European recessive trait. There's a possibility that even Neanderthals had red hair. It is European I don't know what else I can say haha

 

[Ed the Red]

These are topics that shouldn't really be discussed anymore if knowledge evolves. If there is another person that wants to argue about red hair and that it is NOT predominantly carried by celtic-germanic Indo-Europeans then we haven't evolved at all. The evidence is actually overwhelming. I forgot to say I'm red haired and so is my sister. Our background is 100% European, with German, polish, Scottish/English.

 

[Ed the Red]

Celts were various branches also. Of course there is dark Celts. Their area was a vast swathe of Europe that would've easily absorbed many traits. And there are still to this day dark haired Irish and Scots. But that shows the variety of who and when were the different invasions. There is Northern Celts, Alpine Celts, Atlantic Celts and probably Mediterranean Celts. But everyone knows the typical red haired Scot/Irishman. I think I've ranted enough hahaha

 

[GreggChuck]

I am an American with paternal Albanian & maternal German heritage and have R-U152
Sending in additional Y analyses

 

[Ailchu]

no clue about the op, but from what i know light skin (homozygous derived at rs1426654/rs16891982) is a neolithic anatolian_farmer feature and so far in aDNA none of the celts actually had red-hair surprising since all of them are briton-celts (driffield-terrace/rathlin) in fact most were dark-haired(+some brown/blonde) and prevailing dark-eyed; i reckon that more extensive data will show whether ginger and celts go hand in hand or just false translations;

no its not only a farmer feature. in fact farmers were only fixated in one of those alleles while scandinavian hunter gatherers and probably also eastern hunter gatherers were fixated in both. i also wouldn't be so sure that WHG did not already have those alleles too.