Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 221

Thread: Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    )
    Well, it's a topic about Italian genetic soo let's talk about Italian people.
    I can tell you that among the numerous people of Italian background (there are plenty in France) I know, many have grey-blue eyes.

    Also, I have lived many Years In Alsace and Doubs region. I know quite well the North Eastern France phenotypes (also including Lorraine, Burgundy...) and many Northern Italian people match those phenotypes. I suppose R1b U152 has something to do with it. It is recorded by Latin author that Northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul) suffered massive invasion from Northern Transalpine Gaul so it's not surprising at all to find some similarities between Alsatian and Northern Italian.
    Nobody said that some Italians don't have blue or grey eyes. However, they are hardly a majority, even in the north. What's the bid deal about light eyes anyway? I have blue eyes and auburn hair and I don't think that makes me special.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla
    It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair
    Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.
    It's actually rare for any FULL European to have black hair. Espresso brown is usually the darkest color found in much of Europe. You may find a small percentage with true black hair in the Eastern Mediterranean, but that's about it.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Marianne's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-03-09
    Location
    Athens
    Posts
    260


    Country: Greece



    I agree. As I said in my post above I haven't seen any people with true black here in Greece or Italy, except for immigrants from Middle East. But even they are not maily black haired. Many are actually dark brown

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    I agree. As I said in my post above I haven't seen any people with true black here in Greece or Italy, except for immigrants from Middle East. But even they are not maily black haired. Many are actually dark brown
    Some of the comments that people post about phenotypes on these threads are absurd. It's like they are trying to create an alternative reality.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 28-01-11 at 00:11.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Marianne's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-03-09
    Location
    Athens
    Posts
    260


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Some the comments that people post about phenotypes on these threads are absurd. It's like they are trying to create an alternative reality.
    Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.

    Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation). The only truth is that we are all facing a crisis

    People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.

    Italians have various Y-DNA haplogroups, higher variety than Northern Europeans, but still they look completely European to me and their autosomal DNA proves that they are. Same goes for all us southern countries in Europe.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.

    Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation )

    People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.
    Well said, sister.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    22-01-11
    Posts
    127
    Points
    4,503
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,503, Level: 19
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 147
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic! Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).
    She's an Italian dancer born close to Rome. In reality her eyes are blue. Well, if you look like her you are very beautiful.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trpGHBvCPPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.

    Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation). The only truth is that we are all facing a crisis

    People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.

    Italians have various Y-DNA haplogroups, higher variety than Northern Europeans, but still they look completely European to me and their autosomal DNA proves that they are. Same goes for all us southern countries in Europe.
    Indeed, I agree. I am trying to fight stereotypes.

  9. #34
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Location
    Florence-Prato
    Posts
    1,134
    Points
    40,630
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,630, Level: 62
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 1,020
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan-Italian-(European)
    Country: Italy



    I will post images of famous people from Italy (so i don't break privacy like people do in other sites.. privacy is important)

    From italian Big brother:



















  10. #35
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Location
    Florence-Prato
    Posts
    1,134
    Points
    40,630
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,630, Level: 62
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 1,020
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan-Italian-(European)
    Country: Italy






  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    What have all these pictures anything to do with genetics ??

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    St Delcambre's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Posts
    54
    Points
    8,108
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,108, Level: 26
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 42
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a3a1c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2e1a

    Ethnic group
    French (Nord region) ancestry
    Country: United States



    Can someone please explain to me how to read the charts posted in this thread? What does each axis represent?

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-11
    Posts
    200
    Points
    9,153
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,153, Level: 28
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 197
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.
    Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    22-01-11
    Posts
    127
    Points
    4,503
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,503, Level: 19
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 147
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.
    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

    The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

    ITALY:
    1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
    2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
    3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
    4)atlanto-mediterraneans
    5)graciles

    HIBERIA:
    1)atlanto-mediterraneans
    2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

    SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE

  15. #40
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-01-10
    Posts
    244
    Points
    5,457
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,457, Level: 21
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 93
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.
    Since you seem to be French, I suppose you mean meet in person, because I am almost sure you must have seen light-eyed Spaniards. These two famous Frenchmen are of Spanish descent:

    Luis Fernandez

    http://tvmag.tvimg.partner-tvmag.net...2212040902.JPG

    Michel Hidalgo

    http://www.lequipe.fr/Medias/Footbal...demord-pas.jpg

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    I agree.



    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

    The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

    ITALY:
    1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
    2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
    3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
    4)atlanto-mediterraneans
    5)graciles

    HIBERIA:
    1)atlanto-mediterraneans
    2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

    SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE
    I know the person who runs that site. There is little that is scientific about it.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.
    Stop exaggerating already.

  18. #43
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-01-10
    Posts
    244
    Points
    5,457
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,457, Level: 21
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 93
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)
    Do you mean all pigmentation or just eye pigmentation? If eye pigmentation only, NE Spain is lighter eyed than Central Italy and similar to Veneto, Piedmont and Lombardia.

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    I agree.



    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

    The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

    ITALY:
    1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
    2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
    3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
    4)atlanto-mediterraneans
    5)graciles

    HIBERIA:
    1)atlanto-mediterraneans
    2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

    SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE
    Perhaps you need to read the Jablonski et al. skin tone study on Europeans. The research team conducted measurements in Leon (N. Spain) and found that the average skin shade there is lighter than natives of Wales, the London area and parts of Belgium. Now, does it not stand to reason that the skin tones for regions in the general vicinity of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Zamora, Cantabria in Spain and Minho, Douro, Tras os Montes and Beira Alta in Portugal) would be pretty much the same.

    Every country should be divided regionally rather than treated holistically. This holds for skin tone as well as hair and eye pigmentation.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    I agree.



    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

    The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

    ITALY:
    1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
    2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
    3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
    4)atlanto-mediterraneans
    5)graciles

    HIBERIA:
    1)atlanto-mediterraneans
    2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

    SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE
    Iberia has as many Atlantids (Paleo-Atlantids, Nordid-Atlantids and variations thereof) as Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

  21. #46
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661
    Points
    15,281
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,281, Level: 37
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 369
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.
    Light eyes in Spain are common. Here you have some examples, it's not hard to find :




































  22. #47
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Location
    Florence-Prato
    Posts
    1,134
    Points
    40,630
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,630, Level: 62
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 1,020
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan-Italian-(European)
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    I agree.



    From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

    1)French
    2)Southern French/Northern Italians
    3)Spaniards/Central Italians
    4)Portugueses/Greeks
    5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

    The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

    ITALY:
    1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
    2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
    3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
    4)atlanto-mediterraneans
    5)graciles

    HIBERIA:
    1)atlanto-mediterraneans
    2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

    SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE
    among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes

    have a look (at least i think triveneto has the right percentage)


    in Triveneto you see frequently more centro european look like this:


    In particular i think Friuli-Venezia-Giulia is heavily celticized (Carni); it's the most centro-european region of italy; this is based on when i went there and i saw people very different from those i usually see at least here in tuscany.

  23. #48
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Location
    Florence-Prato
    Posts
    1,134
    Points
    40,630
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,630, Level: 62
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 1,020
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan-Italian-(European)
    Country: Italy



    some maps

    here you can have fun to see in wich genetic part (genetic group) of italy you lives in:


    darker, ancient ligures genes:


    darker, etruscans? genes:


    darker green, greek genes:







    interesting map

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640
    Points
    12,808
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,808, Level: 34
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 542
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes

    have a look (at least i think triveneto has the right percentage)


    in Triveneto you see frequently more centro european look like this:


    In particular i think Friuli-Venezia-Giulia is heavily celticized (Carni); it's the most centro-european region of italy; this is based on when i went there and i saw people very different from those i usually see at least here in tuscany.
    The map (bad, just like 95% of the others) is about ALL light eyes, not just blue; that means blue, green, grey and amber. Dark eyes are brown, hazel and "black". Black eyes are really saturated brown and very uncommon in Europe. BTW, green is apparently the rarest light eye color.

  25. #50
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-01-10
    Posts
    244
    Points
    5,457
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,457, Level: 21
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 93
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes
    According to actual eye pigmentation surveys (the one by Livi for Italy and the one by Hoyos Sainz for Spain), Veneto, the most light-eyed area in Italy (41.4%), is actually a bit more light eyed than the Basque region and Navarre, the most light-eyed areas of Spain (39.2%)

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Lombard DNA in Italy
    By Dorianfinder in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 316
    Last Post: 21-08-19, 22:28
  2. Have you been to Italy ?
    By Maciamo in forum Italy & Greece
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 20-03-19, 21:38
  3. Italy - GOES BUST!
    By edao in forum European Economy
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 27-02-13, 17:29
  4. Do you trust Wikipedia?
    By Tsuyoiko in forum Other Serious Discussion
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 27-06-09, 15:00
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23-11-06, 13:31

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •