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Thread: Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    well, there are many, in emilia romagna you have also more north western phenotypes, it's different from tuscany.
    dinaro-meds are very common in italy, and above all in tuscany. Dante alighieri, chiellini, gianna nannini, roberto benigni, and many common people.
    besides, that girs surname is from Veneto, she's northern italian.

    To be real Emilia and Tuscany look quite similar and if have to make a comparison i have seen more fair eyes in Tuscany than in Emilia.
    Going with Livi's survey, Tuscany has more light eyed people than Emilia as well.
    Why do you want to dark wash Tuscany?

    What about Irene Grandi, Vittoria Puccini, Paolo Conticini, Alessandro Diamanti?
    Aren't they tuscans?

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    i think emilia romagna is more light eyed, in emilia you have celtic tribes settlements boii, all northern italy plus marche (ager gallicus) was inhabitated by tribes similar to france (gauls), tuscany was inhabitateds by neolitics, villanovians (italics?), etruscans and ligurians

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    well, of course there are also more nordic tuscans, i know many friends that have a nordic appearence, there were also goths settlement in tuscany, and longobards (mostly lucca for longobards)

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    Well Emilia too has had etruscan settlements, but i think that Etruscans and neolitich farmers were very different from modern day Levatines.
    Plus Tuscany was settled by celts(Senones) who came from Marche, then there were Umbrians who were not so dissimilar from other Italic tribes akin to celts and in the Arezzo's province there were Bituriges. Later in time there have been the Longobard dukedom called Marca di Tuscia and Franks.

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    celts never came in tuscany, there are some celtic phenotypes as well (a bit rare) , but (could be medieval migrations?), umbrians were italics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacktheripper View Post
    Well Emilia too has had etruscan settlements, but i think that Etruscans and neolitich farmers were very different from modern day Levatines.
    Plus Tuscany was settled by celts(Senones) who came from Marche, then there were Umbrians who were not so dissimilar from other Italic tribes akin to celts and in the Arezzo's province there were Bituriges. Later in time there have been the Longobard dukedom called Marca di Tuscia and Franks.
    ironically i have origins from arezzo (father side), Chiana Valley.
    i know there were some middle ages germanic settlements, but the bulks is etruscan i belive, this part of italy was the core of etruscan civilization

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    Some Senones came from Marche and settled in South Tuscany, some Bituriges settled around Arezzo instead.
    Ligures were mostly in North Tuscany but i presume they had strong relationship with Celts from Emilia.

    Umbrians were Italics, but Italic tribes and Celts were very similar and celt\italic languages were intelligible meaning a common substratum.

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    Mind that Etruscans didn't find an empty Tuscany. There were various pre-etruscan tribes with which they melted.


    Anyway talking about germanic settlements in Tuscany even Gioacchino Volpe admitted that Tuscany for its position was one of the most settled by Longobards, Goths and Franks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    celts never came in tuscany, there are some celtic phenotypes as well (a bit rare) , but (could be medieval migrations?), umbrians were italics.
    Vittoria Puccini and Zeffirelli doen't look celt?

    la_bella_vittoria_puccini_aead.jpg

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    they do. (as i said there are some phenotypes like that, but the bulk is mediterranean-dinaric-alpinid-g med-east med)

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    they do. (as i said there are some phenotypes like that, but the bulk is mediterranean-dinaric-alpinid-g med-east med)
    Dinaric\alpine\tall med i agree, east med is more common in the South of Italy not in central Italy hence Tuscany.

    This is a east med:
    lundracesfig8.jpg

    It doesn't seem so common in Tuscany or central Italy to me.

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    According to Livi's old survey, the biggest Italy has had, Tuscany as a whole is lighter in hair and eye colour than Emilia-Romagna.

    Etruscan wall paintings do show a few blonds and redheads even in antiquity.

    In Lucca province Nordids are less common than in the rest of Tuscany, Longobards or not, and most Lucchese blonds or near-blonds are of a Cro-Magnon/Borreby type which may also be ancient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    According to Livi's old survey, the biggest Italy has had, Tuscany as a whole is lighter in hair and eye colour than Emilia-Romagna.

    Etruscan wall paintings do show a few blonds and redheads even in antiquity.

    In Lucca province Nordids are less common than in the rest of Tuscany, Longobards or not, and most Lucchese blonds or near-blonds are of a Cro-Magnon/Borreby type which may also be ancient.
    Yes. With all the respect to Julia this thread is misleading, every anthropologist would contradict everything said in the first pages.
    East med phenotype is very rare in Tuscany, the commoner is alpine\dinaric\tall med, meaning even the fairest types of those subraces. Fair eyes and Hair are quite common, cro-magnoid strain too especially in the North of Tuscany, but you can find it also in the rest of the region.
    Tuscany does have more fair haired and eyed people than Emilia according to Livi and even several red haired.


    Etruscans had strong connection with Ligures, even the Aeneid speaks of a tribe called Rutulians(meaning reds and blondes)which is now considered according by modern scholars liguro\etruscan.
    Then there are the etruscan paintings, that clearly show that fair people was not so uncommon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacktheripper View Post
    However created this thread doesn't know nothing about anthropology and general phenotypes of Italy.
    Italy is not at all gracile med and med only, but mostly alpine and dinaric\dinaricized meds with a fair amount of Atlanto-Meds as well especially in Ligury, Tuscany, Lombardia and Emilia Romagna, but you can find them all over Italy more or less. The gracile meds and berids are to be found mostly in Sardinia, the rest of Italy lacks them mostly save some parts of Calabria.
    That depends on what anthropologist you read. Alpines only seem to be common in the North. They certainly are not the majority of the Italian population (and even if they were, that obviously would not prevent them from being perfectly capable of producing "dark" types. Even among the French "Alpines" you can find "dark" types. Plenty of "Alpines" are in fact darker than plenty of "Mediterraneans".) Coon, whom you seem to be trying to follow, also says that the "coarse Mediterranean" is particularly prevalent among southern Italians.

    All the pictures of dark guys posted by the owner of the thread are of S.Italian origins, no one of them is from Central or N.Italy. The differences are not enormous but there are and you can notice it.
    Finding "dark" Central and Northern Italians is not really difficult:

    http://racialreality.110mb.com/leganord.html

    http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/



    As for all the maps posted by some people here, the closeness of Spaniards to French is because of the lack of other Spaniards, as iinstead happens with Tuscans and N.Italians who of course cluster closer being of a more similar stock compared to French.
    Actually it's the other way around. Genetic studies tend not to separate Spaniards into geographical areas, like they usually do with Italians. And even by lumping Spain all together and isolating Italians into geographical groups, Spaniards still cluster closer to and have more "overlap" with the French and even Swiss:


    http://www.plosone.org/article/showI...e.0005472.g002

    Italy has had a greater neolitich impact than Iberia, and then it appears a little more "toward" east. In comparison Italy has much less recent admixture from historical periods compared to Iberia, save maybe Sicily.
    I am skeptical of such claims. The genetic markers that some dubious genetic studies (ex: Capelli et al. 2009) have arbitrarily labelled as "historical" are thousands of years old, so there is no way of telling if they are really of "historical" introduction in any given country. They could have been introduced long before written history. In any event, in Iberia the majority of the genetic markers supposedly associated with "historical events" are in Portugal, not Spain.

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    There were quite a few Spanish samples in many of the autosomal studies I read. They all show Spaniards clustering with French, Portuguese and Northern Italians, with some closeness to Swiss. That's pretty much a given.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 12-04-11 at 21:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    That depends on what anthropologist you read. Alpines only seem to be common in the North. They certainly are not the majority of the Italian population (and even if they were, that obviously would not prevent them from being perfectly capable of producing "dark" types. Even among the French "Alpines" you can find "dark" types. Plenty of "Alpines" are in fact darker than plenty of "Mediterraneans".) Coon, whom you seem to be trying to follow, also says that the "coarse Mediterranean" is particularly prevalent among southern Italians.
    Infact i spoke about a mix, sure is that Italy is not predominantly med or coarse med as somebody is trying to portray here. As for the alpines darker than meds i have my doubts and it is not corroborated by any study for what i know.
    Every survey made over Italy speak about a massive presence of Dinaric\Alpine compared to coarse med anyway.



    Finding "dark" Central and Northern Italians is not really difficult:

    http://racialreality.110mb.com/leganord.html

    http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/
    I don't get this to be real, it seems a spite to me.
    Dark phenotypes are everywhere in Europe. Not only in Italy.
    Spain has its fair amount too.
    This does not change the fact that there are tangible clinal differences in Italy and Livi's survey given completely different datas over the biggest study ever made in Italy.



    Actually it's the other way around. Genetic studies tend not to separate Spaniards into geographical areas, like they usually do with Italians. And even by lumping Spain all together and isolating Italians into geographical groups, Spaniards still cluster closer to and have more "overlap" with the French and even Swiss:


    [URL="URL="http://www.plosone.org/article/showImageLarge.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj ournal.pone.0005472.g002"]http://www.plosone.org/article/showImageLarge.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj ournal.pone.0005472.g002"]
    As i said, Italy has been affected more by neolitich, Spain less, that's why the closeness probably. Anyway it's well known the closeness of S.Italy with Greece, i was talking about that map with North Italy and Central Italy showing French, Spaniards, Tuscans and North Italians. It's obvious that if you put Tuscans and North Italians togheter they are closer.
    Anyway:
    http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg
    I can't see all the closeness you claim for Spaniards with Swiss people.

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    The great majority of extra-European markers in both Spain and Portugal are many thousands of years old, according to most population genetics research. Autosomal studies show minor North African and Middle Eastern markers in Iberia. The percentages are only slightly higher for Portugal vis-a-vis Spain. Iberia as a whole trends much more Paleolithic.

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    Some CH (Swiss) samples fall closer to Spaniards and other Iberians although most cluster primarily with the French on the plot posted. I think "closeness" was mentioned, not general clustering.

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    Some CH (Swiss) samples fall closer to Spaniards and other Iberians
    Are we watching the same map?
    http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne View Post
    Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic! Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).


    ...
    Marianne, I once had the exact same experience! The difference was that my mirror image was staring at me from a mug shot (arrest photo), not a photo that was complimentary. I'm a cop, and I was setting up a line-up to show to a victim. While doing so I was startled to be looking at what I thought was my own face. I had to go back, look up the other guys name, and note it in case I ever got accused of anything I did not do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacktheripper View Post
    Infact i spoke about a mix, sure is that Italy is not predominantly coarse med or eastern med.
    It isn't predominantly "Alpine" either.

    As for the alpines darker than meds i have my doubts and it is not corroborated by any study for what i know.
    "Mediterranean", contrary to popular beliefs, is not a "complexion" but a skeletal/cranial type, it has nothing to do with pigmentation. "Mediterraneans" vary widely in hair, eye and skin pigmentation, just like "Alpines" do:

    "As a rule his (i.e. the Mediterranean's) skin is some shade of white, from pink or peaches-and-cream to a light brown...

    The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not require some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age. Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult." (Carleton Coon, "Caravan: the story of the Middle East", page 155.)

    You can also take a look at skin pigmentation studies. The more strongly "Alpine" northern Italy is not "lighter" than the more strongly "Mediterranean" Spain.

    I don't get this to be real, it seems a spite to me.
    Dark phenotypes are everywhere in Europe. Not only in Italy.
    Spain has its fair amount too.
    This does not change the fact that there are tangible clinal differences in Italy.
    Yes, but what the author of those pages points out is the hypocrisy and exaggerations of the more radical among the northern Italian separatists, who want to portray northern Italy as if it was Germany while southern Italy as if it was the Middle East.

    i was talking about that map with North Italy and Central Italy showing French, Spaniards, Tuscans and North Italians. It's obvious that if you put Tuscans and North Italians togheter they are closer.
    Which map were you referring to? The one I showed you separated Northern Italy from Southern Italy and it still did not cluster closer or overlap more with France and Switzerland than Spain did (which was not separated into geographical areas.)

    Anyway:
    http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg
    I can't see all the closeness you claim to Swiss people.
    Even that map shows that as a whole Spain clusters closer to France than Italy does (the majority of Italy is shown further south.)

    This one also shows the same:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sc...B40K6Hv5bA2uTg

    Spain (this time divided into 2 regions) again clustered closer to and overlapped with France and even Switzerland, while Italy (divided into two as well) did not overlap with either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacktheripper View Post
    Yes, the 2008 map. At least one of the CH samples clusters with Spaniards (and French) and there are a few others that trend towards the Iberian quadrant. No big deal. It's relative closeness we are talking about.

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    He is refering to this one, from the same study :

    http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/193/laoplot02qp5.jpg

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    The fact that various anthropoligists were for so long time so intensely debating about the exact separation of those alleged sub-races (what a good biologist actually should do IMO), as well as that a horde of unbalanced college students is unable to find a consent on classifying individuals from day to day again (e.g. anthroscape: 'Guess me', 'Guess my granny', 'Guess my dog' etc...), is both proof enough that there is not much scientific about it.

    It may be of some use in a style or fashion consultation at a beauty saloon, but that's it! Oh and yeah, I DO have the feeling that people who are obsessed with these sub-races have a problem with themselves, trying to find an identity their life couldn't provide them yet, clearly separating between 'us' and 'them'.

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    Well said...

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