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Thread: G2a origins: what to believe?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?
    finally, I have managed to collect enough posts (10) to be able to answer this question fairly...
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.

    It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tene and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.
    as I said It's hard to see correlation there...it doesnot even explain low percentage areas, and it certainly does not explain the peaks...
    peaks of G2a they are easily explained by the spread of some genetically quite recent historical populations ...
    keep in mind that I do not say those populations were only G2a, but rather that G2a was strong in them...

    Etruscans (who called themselves Raseni) directly explain the peak in Italy and partly the one in Sardinia...



    Confronted with expansion of more warlike tribes, Etruscans have eventually migrated northwards into Alps to region of Raetia (those who remained were assimilated by Celts, Romans and others and have eventually moved south during the barbaric incursions into Roman empire including Gotic ones... which places current distribution of G2a in Italy somewhat more south than Etruscans were... but such rather small movements of populations in front of very threatening invaders are very common point...)..

    confirmation for etruscan origin of Raetians one finds in history, language and genetics... linguistically, raetic language is considered to origin from etruscan... genetically proof is spread of G2a in areas of both Etruscan and Raetian settlements... historically proof is the following:
    In his Natural History (1st century AD), Pliny wrote about Alpine peoples:
    “ adjoining these (the Noricans) are the Raeti and Vindelici. All are divided into a number of states.[1] The Raeti are believed to be people of Tuscan race[2] driven out by the Gauls; their leader was named Raetus.[3]
    here is Raetia province of Roman empire..


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetian

    thus peak in Alps is also explained with Etruscans...
    and not with Hallstat-Latenne culture that yielded Celts who in fact were the reason number one for Etruscans to seek refuge in Alps...
    Etruscans came to Europe via Asia minor...

    peak in Greece is probably related to ancient Macedonians...
    let me explain... Alexandar Macedonian did lot of conquest for very little time... the only way one small country as was ancient Macedonia could subjugate large areas as the ones of Iranian people, is in fact that he didnot wage much war on them..he was of same blood..iranian... so he came there as a king who wants to unite iranians... only that can explain his incredibly fast military conquest...

    talking about Iranian origin of G2a leads us to last step in colouring map of Europe with distribution of G2a... this last step are Sarmatian (thus iranian ) tribe Alans... Descendents of Alans still live in Caucasus..their name is Ossetians.. they speak iranic language... their dominant haplogroup is G2a...
    http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf
    this is how Alans moved through Europe in very zig-zag pattern:

    together with Suebes and Vandals they have conquered Iberian peninsula...

    if you compare it with the distributions of G2a you will notice that Alans settlements on sides left significant genetic imprint while the middle part is fairly gone...this is quite normal since arriving Visigoths went through centrum pushing Alans and Vandals southwards into northern Africa... from there they conquered and settled Sardinia as you can see on this map

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    OK TY this is clear
    Nico

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    As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

    if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a

    The island was part of the Hittite empire during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.[31]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

    Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
    this peak is related to Liburnians

    I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
    why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...
    Labarna I
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Labarna I was the traditional first King of the Hittites, ca. the early 16th century BC (short chronology).
    Labarna is the traditional founder of the Hittite Old Kingdom (fl. ca. 1600 – 1450 BC), though his existence is sometimes questioned by modern scholars.
    ...What little is known about him is culled mainly from the Edict of Telipinu, which states that he overwhelmed his enemies and "made them borders of the sea",[1] a statement which may refer to conquests as far as the Mediterranean coast in the south, and the Black Sea in the north.
    ...
    Labarna was actually a title of the early Hittite rulers,[2] rather than a personal name.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

    if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

    Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
    this peak is related to Liburnians

    I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
    why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I
    Thank you I am convicted I do agree this old settlement of G2a in Anatolia is matching to the Hittites I believe the Hittites were the real people of Anatolia as Renfrew the Indo European cradle was on this area or from the Armenian plateau or Caucasus in correlation to the Hattis the Hurrians and also the Kassites all these people are involved in the earlier Indo Aryan language or the proto Indo European all are sharing the same deities. Anyway G2a3b1 in Europe comes from these civilizations probably during the bronze age or more recently among the Alans or other tribes from this era ? The first hypothesis was about the Roman suppletives so I wonder why when the Roman Empire was defeated these suppletives were associated to the Germanic tribes ? I have some doubts about this hypothesis and also about the real demographic impact of these suppletives among the Romans on the European population ...
    Last edited by willy; 28-10-10 at 18:53.

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    To all,

    Since hopefully I can now post a URL, here is the URL for: haplogroup G ftdna project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    If this does not work Yahoo. ftdna hapgroup g y-dna project. (once you are in the project keep scrolling down to view all the tested parties results.)

    This site, shows all males in the world who are of haplogroup G (only) that have tested with ftdna and their results. Only their kit numbers and surnames are posted.

    Starting with haploclade G1 all results are in desending order. Just like in a genealogy chart. The "ancestor is G1 and his son's and their son's etc (in thousands of years) split down the line (downstream) with each number (G2) and then with mutations the sons split into subgroups like G2a, G2b , etc etc. In order for anyone to understand who came first , one would do well to look up this project.

    Please do note the surname names of the beginning posted results, they "appear" to be of Middle Eastern origins. Also there are more than a few self identified (men) in "Jewish clusters".

    Melusine

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    Hi!

    If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
    If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
    Last edited by DejaVu; 30-10-10 at 19:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Hi!
    If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
    If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
    Regards
    Dean
    Let's not jump to conclusions...
    It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...


    note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
    this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..

    I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...

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    Let's now pay attention to areas that lack G2a




    Note now the lack of G2a spread in area of Paeonia and Epirus..
    They are in between two waves of G2a, south one that came from Asia minor with ancient Macedonians mostly, and north one that probably came with Thracians and related tribes either from Caucasus or Asia minor..
    I would say that that Paeonians were there before G2a waves..
    they could have been original settlers of that area..

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    Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups

    Listed here are notable ethnic groups by Y-DNA Haplogroups based on relevant studies.

    Macedonia (FYROM) Haplogroup G 5.1%
    Greece Haplogroup G 9.1%
    Albania Haplogroup G 2%
    Some of the Aromuns in Macedonia (FYROM) and Albania got haplogroup G.
    Kurds in Turkey 12.5% G
    Bulgaria 0% G
    Serbia 0% G
    Kosovo 0% G


    Cant post links and to get there just search the headline in google, the information is in wikipedia.

    Dont get me wrong I am not here to prove anything only hanging on with the information you all have posted and if I can post more relevant information here. Must start somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Let's not jump to conclusions...
    It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...


    note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
    this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..

    I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...
    actually, I think I was wrong...
    G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
    and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...

    so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
    ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, I think I was wrong...
    G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
    and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...

    so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
    ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....
    G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .
    The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...
    How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from different haplogroups (some R1a) that G2a found in the rest of Greece .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from a different haplogroup that G2a .
    I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
    G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
    G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...
    Yes G2a is for a long time in Anatolia so you think that the Turks moved them in this era of Greece after the fall of Constantinople just 500 years ago ? and it is sufficient to see this hot spot ? I don't think so because there are many G2a3a in the FTDNA project who come from a Macedonian origin and who are not Turks .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes G2a is for a long time in Anatolia so you think that the Turks moved them in this era of Greece after the fall of Constantinople just 500 years ago ? and it is sufficient to see this hot spot ? I don't think so because there are many G2a3a in the FTDNA project who come from a Macedonian origin and who are not Turks .
    As i said, G2a was spread from Asia minor to Greece/Macedonia during Hellenic times... that is uniform colour on Maciamo's map showing lower frequencies there... in addition, the area where hotspot is was few centuries ago settled by Turks... among those culturally and linguistically Turkish people, many have pre-Turkic roots, as it is the case in whole Turkey (see distribution of G2a there)...
    adding this layer on top of layer with spread of G2a same as in the rest of Greece did increase frequencies of G2a...
    if Ancient Macedonians were dominantly G2a we would for sure see stronger spread of G2a in original position of ancient Macedonia state



    but there it is same as in the rest of Greece... in fact, if you look carefully, hotspot of G2a falls more into Thessaly area that was out of Ancient Macedonia


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    hotspot

    I dont believe that Turks could make these hotspots only in G2a group. Turkey has 89% of all other groups and only 11% of G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot of all other Y haplogroups along with G2a. Turks are also R1a, R1b, E3b,... and more R1b than G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot that corresponds with 89% Turkish genes R1b,R1a,E3b and other. What could happen that Turks sudelny loose 89% of their genes.


    For 300 years my ancestors lived in Zemun part of AutroHungarian empire, where they got land for fighting the Turks, as catholics and protecting Austo-Hungarian empire. They came form Poland as far as I know my surname is only found in Poland and probably originates form todays Ossetic language. This is IE Iranian branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    I dont believe that Turks could make these hotspots only in G2a group. Turkey has 89% of all other groups and only 11% of G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot of all other Y haplogroups along with G2a. Turks are also R1a, R1b, E3b,... and more R1b than G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot that corresponds with 89% Turkish genes R1b,R1a,E3b and other. What could happen that Turks sudelny loose 89% of their genes.
    hotspot in Greece is 12% (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf), it is hotspot not because it is big percentage but because in surrounding area G is around 3 to 5%... 12% is more or less same level as in Turkey (do not expect flat 11% spread accross Turkey either)

    exactly that area was settled by people from Turkey



    so, I see no good reason not to relate the hotspot to settlement of people from Turkey...



    For 300 years my ancestors lived in Zemun part of AutroHungarian empire, where they got land for fighting the Turks, as catholics and protecting Austo-Hungarian empire. They came form Poland as far as I know my surname is only found in Poland and probably originates form todays Ossetic language. This is IE Iranian branch.
    calm down... no one claims that haplogroup G is turkic marker...
    thing is that some carriers of G lived in Asia minor as well, and when area was conquered by Turks they were assimilated into Turks...

    most of haplogroup G in Europe was spread by Alans...
    even G in Turkey might have been spread by Alans related people...

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    There is nothing to calm about for the part you referd to . This was my first post and those are some informatons about what I know of my background.
    Think of it as my introduction to you.

    Also I do not want to connect myself to some heroic ancient people, Alexander or else. I see no enemies in today Turks either. On the contrary. My idea was that tthese people were Circassians settled in Ottoman lands when expelled from Caucasus. This post is only for determining truth.

    exactly that area was settled by people from Turkey


    If I see well Red is the representing colour for Turks. Why is then only this "northern" part of Greece in hotspot. It should be three hotspots. Also in todays Bulgaria and Bosnia.

    3 to 5%... 12% is more or less same level as in Turkey (do not expect flat 11% spread across Turkey either)

    Actually it is 1-2% in surrounding areas, and it rose to 12-15% when "Turks" came,so it was a big group of people if G2a who are 1/10 th of that group rose in pecent to 12-15%. I just wanted to know what happened to R1b Turks who are 10-25% in Turkey. Why this people are not visible in in Hotspot area and why they dint rose percent also. R1b was 10% previosly. Proportionaly it should be aruond 28% now of R1b in the hotspot. What happened to Turks of all other groups - 89% of them (including previous). E3b is 21% in Turkey, J1 is 12,5% and they should be visible too much more than G2a. What about all other groups that live only in Turkey why they are not visible? It just looks to much rounded about 1/10 of Turkish genes.

    I liked your previous post very much, not because of hittites and alexander but brave interpretation of something that looked very plausable. I look forward to not being related at all with any of those great ancient civilisations, only to see out of the box oppinions of historical thruths, when applied to DNA knowledge.

    Also I would want to say something else. When you wanted to see this hotspot being an ancient Macedonian settelment you saw how this hotspot directly corensponds to your idea. I suspect many of people reading believed you. Afterwards, your new theory produced also not so acurate version hotspot being so much out of those boundaires.
    It was very interesting to me but I respect your energy and open mindness that in real life do produce such small mistakes. These told me you are a person who seeks the truth sincerelly.

    Thank you for your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    There is nothing to calm about for the part you referd to . This was my first post and those are some informatons about what I know of my background.
    Think of it as my introduction to you.
    ok, I aplogize for misunderstanding mention of your background as emotionally related to discussion about origin of G hotspot in Greece...

    My idea was that tthese people were Circassians settled in Ottoman lands when expelled from Caucasus. This post is only for determining truth.
    that is possible... is there historical data about their settlement in Greece and about possible locations? I could not find anything on wikipedia...

    If I see well Red is the representing colour for Turks. Why is then only this "northern" part of Greece in hotspot. It should be three hotspots. Also in todays Bulgaria and Bosnia.
    it may happen that hotpsots exist there as well but that sampling was not done in that area... e.g. in Bosnia they did take samples from all over Bosnia but without regional determination except of split on two regions: Bosnia and Herzegovina... with total number of people sampled in Bosnia and Herzegovina being at most few hundreds, it is very clear that one cannot see influence of G hotspot in single small county...

    Further on, we do not know whether Turkish settlements still existed after liberating those areas from Turks... I can imagine that the ones in borderline places were forced to move out, while the ones surrounded by native people were aloud to stay...

    Actually it is 1-2% in surrounding areas, and it rose to 12-15% when "Turks" came,so it was a big group of people if G2a who are 1/10 th of that group rose in pecent to 12-15%. I just wanted to know what happened to R1b Turks who are 10-25% in Turkey.

    Why this people are not visible in in Hotspot area and why they dint rose percent also. R1b was 10% previosly. Proportionaly it should be aruond 28% now of R1b in the hotspot. What happened to Turks of all other groups - 89% of them (including previous). E3b is 21% in Turkey, J1 is 12,5% and they should be visible too much more than G2a. What about all other groups that live only in Turkey why they are not visible? It just looks to much rounded about 1/10 of Turkish genes.
    Turkey has lot of regional oscillations in frequency of haplogroups... so it is possible that settled group origins from region reach in G, and poor in R1b.... which would be from southwest part of Asia minor



    Last edited by how yes no 2; 21-12-10 at 19:40. Reason: to clarify some sentences

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    I think Y DNA G2a3b1 has a Indo Iranian origin in Europe

    About Y DNA G2 and Indo Aryans (Mitanni and Kassite connection)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...ndo-aryan.html
    problem of Indo-Aryan origins the Dagestan component that he detects in Indian Brahmins
    Y DNA G2a3b1 found in Caucasus (Dagestan) and also among the Indian Tamil Nadu upper caste . This is an interesting paper on Y DNA G2a3b1 among the Brahman caste of Tamil Nadu south Indian ethnic group
    (Updated Nov 13, 2010; Originally posted in March 2009) http://php.scripts.psu.edu/faculty/a...l_Ancestry.htm

    You can read : "the G haplogroup is present in about 13% of Iyengars (most of whom are likely to be G2a3b1), 11.1% of Bihar Paswans, 11% of Gujarati Brahmins, 10% of Iyers, 3.3% of Maharashtra Brahmins, 3.6% of Punjabi Brahmins (as well as other Punjabis), and a few other groups with small representations: Parsis (Zoroastrian) and Ambalakarars (Kerala temple dwellers)."

    (When you have more than 10 % of G2a somewhere this a very high level because the Haplogroup G is extremely rare over the world)

    The most interesting thing is that you have Y DAN R1a Y DNA J2 or Y DNA R M269 in the Lower caste but not G2a* who is in a great majority among the Upper caste from a Indo Aryan origin . So I am not sure that Y DNA J2 is really concerned by the relation ship between Caucasus and Indian Brahmans . Thats more significant when you know that Y DNA G2a is extremely rare and Y DNA R1a ,Y DNA J2 or Y DNA R-M269 are found on a large scale at very high level in many areas on Asia near east or Europe (East and West) so you can to associate them many different cultures this is not really the case about G2a who seems to be a good tracer in that case .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyengar
    Haplogroup Distribution among the Iyengars

    As per popular belief, Iyengars are descendants of Indo-Aryan migrants originally from North India, as are their Smartha counterparts, the Iyers. Like all brahmin communities,the Iyengars are also classified based on their gotra, or patrilineal descent.




  22. #47
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    For now I would stick to a Circassian deportation idea. I will try to make more of it. One Circassian tribe of Shapsughs have 81% of G2a.

    I have no problem with Turkish origin idea itself. My problem consists two things:

    - I see hotspots generaly as a very distinct DNA formation. If no other group matches their ( G ) presence in those hotspots (this one and any other), this signifies a large % of G people in a migratory group that made a hotspot. I see no G group hotspots in Turkey that could indicate a potent % of G group. It is rather uniform and I agree with you it is such due to an old settlement from possibly 6000 years ago.

    -I agree that Turkish genes could vary from place to place, but (On your map there is no R1b under 15%. I know that Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia have 7-15%). In worst case ( on my map it is 10%) a R1b must have accompanied the G2a and have made a visible impression on hotspot. Not to mention J1 that is more prominent than G2 , is situated where R1b lacks in %, and is almost absent in Greece. Also all other groups should have left some mark for me to be convinced.

    For now, I see no reason to believe that such a small group could leave such a genetic imprint without all other potential groups( which are in general more potent for leaving an imprint) leaving an imprint also.




    The other story could be more interesting:

    I believe in part of your previous posts of Hittites being connected to G as well as R1b. This is why:

    1. Hittites king name was Hatushilli. Still today Georgian surnames end with Shvili or shilli.

    2. Their capital was made on the hillside on a very rough terrain, two times in a year cut off, and covered in snow.They had a technique of building on steep hillsides and boaring a granite rocks to make this marvelous city for 50000 people. They were hundreds of miles from nearest rivers and roads.They had no water but one from rain in basins made uphill and piped to the city.

    You could not make anyone just for sake of it to make a city on a hillside or to learn all the necessary engineering to do so, (as an architect I know it is impossible to learn such skills on the way or even in terms of centuries living on mountains), or to deprive people of water and contact with other people, to make those people live in conditions where there is a lack of oxygen, water, and human contact, in presence of harsh elements, to build this city, if those people did not originate in a mountain culture.
    And a specific one that used all the skills learned in centuries or millenniums of living in high mountains to be able to organize mountain skilled and roughened by climate highlander people to make such a city.It still had to meet all the needs of that people. Many people from valleys could not even breathe there for a long time, not to mention work on such a task, play, create art, wage wars, or in general to be satisfied living in such conditions.

    Personally, I believe they originated in Caucasus.

    3. For hundred years scientists could not read their script and then they read one word: wa-a-tar, or something like that, that was the word from IE languages. So, to their (a part of scientific circles) surprise, they concluded these people must have been people from Europe, since they could not see any other culture that could be potentially be more connected. Some of them argued that it must came from Europe since IE languages only traveled from Eurasia to Europe on northern route.

    I was not convinced. Not only Caucasus have IE languages (My surname is derived from IE Ossetian language), but 50 mostly unknown languages are spoken today in Caucasus (genetically close people). About the northern route that my ancestors actually have undertaken, it was not, in my opinion, a primary route for spreading IE languages, as G2a and R1b groups prove by Anatolian connection, but rather from Caucasus to Anatolia.
    Concerning R1b, it also originates in Georgia today, but this map of R1b in nowdays Anatolia shows two more (waves?) of R1b that could be Roman? I believe that R1b and G2a were in similar proportion when coming to Anatolia.
    Last edited by Ivan; 22-12-10 at 08:37.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Personally, I believe they originated in Caucasus.
    yes, look at this figure from wikipedia...



    so, I think we can assume that haplogroup G arrived to Asia minor from Caucasus mostly around 1900 BC with Hittites...

    It is generally assumed that the Hittites came into Anatolia some time before 2000 BC. While their earlier location is disputed, there has been strong evidence for more than a century that the home of the Indo-Europeans in the fourth and third millennia was in the Pontic Steppe, present day Ukraine around the Sea of Azov. The Hittites and other members of the Anatolian family then came from the north, possibly along the Caspian Sea. Their movement into the region set off a Near East mass migration sometime around 1900 BC The dominant inhabitants in central Anatolia at the time were Hattians. There were also Assyrian colonies in the country; it was from these that the Hittites adopted the cuneiform script. It took some time before the Hittites established themselves, as is clear from some of the texts included here. For several centuries there were separate Hittite groups, usually centered around various cities. But then strong rulers with their center in Boğazköy succeeded in bringing these together and conquering large parts of central Anatolia to establish the Hittite kingdom.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire


    To reconstruct what could have happened we need to compare spread of G with spreads of I2a2, J2, E-V13, R1b and R1a







    previous inhabitants were thus Hattians and Asyrians...
    The Hattians were an ancient people who inhabited the land of Hatti in present-day central part of Anatolia, Turkey, noted at least as early as the empire of Sargon of Akkad ca. 2300,[1] until they were gradually displaced and absorbed ca. 2000-1700 BC by Indo-European Hittites, who adopted their name for the "land of Hatti".
    ...
    The Hattians were organised in feudal city-states and small kingdoms or principalities. These cities were well organized and ruled as theocratic principalities. Even as they were taken over one by one by the conquering Hittites after ca. 2200 BC, the Hattians probably continued to form the major portion of the population.
    ...
    The Hattians spoke a non-Indo-European language of uncertain affiliation called Hattic, now believed by some scholars to be related to the Northwest Caucasian language group.[4
    ...
    The influence of their culture was such that the Hittites took over much of their religion and mythology.
    ....
    The use of the word "Proto-Hittite" instead of Hattians is inaccurate. This would imply that the Hittites evolved from the Hattians, which is completely false. The Hittites were an Indo-European people, ethnically and linguistically distinct from the Hattians. However, the term "Land of Hatti" was so ingrained that the Hittites continued to use it when referring to their own country. The Hattians eventually merged with, or were replaced by, the Hittites, who spoke the Indo-European Hittite language
    ...
    The Hattians and the Hittites apparently had different personal characteristics. Egyptian depictions of the Battle of Kadesh reportedly show long-nosed Hattian soldiers, while their Hittite leaders looked different according to Turkish archaeologist Ekrem Akurgal.[7]
    Akurgal claims that "The Hattians were still the great majority of the population in the Hittite period."[8]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

    possible scenario of developments in Asia minor:
    J2 is first layer in Asia Minor
    J2 spread from Asia minor along sea coasts round 5000 BC resulting in Printed-Cardmium pottery
    E-V13 spread to Balkan



    R1b (and some R1a?) settle(s) in Asia minor from somewhere in Iran

    R1b spread from Asia minor to west Europe together with some J2 (this is not the first wave of R1b to populate Europe; earlier waves did not carry J2 (see Basques area and Celtic areas in uk) and might have come from direction passing above Black sea)

    R1a from Balkan spreads to Euroasia giving Scythians

    early Scythian R1a settles in south of Asia minor among E-V13 people

    R1a repopulates east Europe from Asia minor? (this is suggested by spread of E-V13 that seems to have spread that correlates with R1a and is absent in R1b areas same as it is the case for Asia minor)

    in 2000 BC E-V13, some J2, and some R1a are what is called Assyrians, while R1b and some J2 are Hatti
    I2a2 that was also present in Asia minor was pushed to west by arrival of Hettite....

    Hittite (G and some J2) settle among Hatti (R1b and J2) and Assyrians (mix of E-V13, J2 and R1a)
    ...

    finally Turks
    The latest study from Turkey by Gokcumen (2008)[27] took into account oral histories and historical records. They went to villages and did not do a random selection from a group of university students like many other studies. Accordingly here are the results:
    1) At an Afshar village whose oral stories tell they come from Central Asia they found that 57% come from haplogroup L, 13% from haplogroup Q, 3% from haplogroup N thus indicating that the L haplogroups in Turkey are of Central Asian heritage rather than Indian. These Asian groups add up to 73% in this village. Furthermore 10% of these Afshars were E3a and E3b. Only 13% were J2a, the most common haplogroup in Turkey.
    2) An older Turkish village center that did not receive much migration was about 25% N and 25% J2a with 3% G and close to 30% of some sort of R1 but mostly R1b.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...Turkish_people
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 22-12-10 at 13:04. Reason: added Turkey, changing order of E-V13 and R1a settlements in Asia minor

  24. #49
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    OK but the Greek G2 (thessalo-makedonia) and the portoquese G2??? are they central and north european or hetit-minor Asian????

  25. #50
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    There are about 3 million Circassians in todays Turkey. They are decendants of exiled Circassians. They are almost all G2a

    Since in original tribes of Circassia there were mostly G2a. Shapsugh tribe was one of the bigest tribes in 1850 priior to exile. Shapsugs today have 83,5 % of G2a but are low in numbers.
    Because of I and R1a coming to Circassia or republika adigeja (russian province), today Circassia have only 30% of original population.

    Also Russians setteled in Ossetia in great numbers most of their peasant populations and Cossaks (I2a2) snice distoying Circassia in atempt to eradicate local population. Much of old English books speak of very elaborate processes settling Russian population in Ossetia and Circassia, that Russia undertook prior and after Exiling 1.500.000 or 2.000.000 people in 1864. Only less than 500.000 survived this journey.



    I promised to find Circassian evidence on hotspot but for now I couldn`t.
    The majority of Circassians actualy left Balkan for Jordan Syria and Israel, where they were not accepted at first.


    Circassian Diaspora
    Quantity
    Turkey 3,000,000
    Syria 80,000
    Jordan 65,000
    Israel 3,595
    United States 9,000
    Kosovo (in 1998) 174 These went back to Circassia because of giving support to Serbia.
    Germany 40,000
    Netherlands 500



    I did find a lot of evidence of Tukish settlements in Balkan countries and Greece. But it doesnt involve the Hotspot. Turks, and other sources speak in numbers not only map distibutions. They say Western Thrace is predominat with Turkish people.



    The Turks and Pomaks By Hugh Poulton, "The Balkans, Minorities and Governments in Conflict" (1993), Minority Rights Publication

    Assessing the number of Turks and other minorities in Greece is problematic. The census of 1928 recorded 191,254 Turks while the 1951 census recorded 179,895 Turks of whom virtually all were either Muslim by religion, 92,219, or Orthodox, 86,838. While some live on the Greek islands neighbouring Turkey, most live in Western Thrace. The Pomaks, Muslim Slavs, or a small number of Muslim Greeks, tend to live also in Western Thrace in villages in the southern Rhodope and due to the official reticence to give figures for ethnic minorities, only for religious ones, it is hard to separate them from the Turks; however, the villages near the Bulgarian border in all three provinces of Western Thrace are predominantly Pomak with the exception of some like Mikron Dereion which have a mixed population of ethnic Turks, Pomaks and Greek Orthodox, or others which have a sedentary Muslim Gypsy population. Many Pomaks also live in Komotini and Xantini and some also live in Dhidhimotikhon.


    Of the other minorities there are small populations of Gagauz, Christian Turkish-speaking people, for example around the city of Alexandroupolis, and Sarakatsani, Greek speaking transhumants, especially in the village of Palladion. Fieldwork by F. De Jong in 1979, to whom much of the above is indebted, notes that there are no longer any Circassians in Western Thrace.

    So Turks living in Grece should be visible mostly in Western Thrace.
    I myself do not believe they could be visible at all, through G haplotype, since all Circassians allegedly left Western Thrace.

    There were certanly G in Turkish army and those who settled in Balkan, but they are not visble enough since Turkish genes do no differ enough from Bosnian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greece populations. I believe much more Turks live in Serbia and Bosnia today but are not visible. Only their surnames that are of Tukish origin including words Beg, Ali, Pasa... survive.
    Last edited by Ivan; 12-01-11 at 19:31. Reason: map

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