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Thread: G2a origins: what to believe?

  1. #51
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    Iapetos, you are of g2a

    and you seem to live in the G hotspot area, if I am right.

    Are you indigenous in that area?

    Last edited by Ivan; 12-01-11 at 16:59. Reason: picture

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    Willy

    The post that arrived in between from Willy adrressed an issue of G2a being closer to India. I believe in it to some point. I read that there were three thories of G beiing closer to Caucasus and the other being closer to foothills of Himalayas, and one in between.



    The upper caste story does really look interesting., since a rare group is primarely concentrated in this caste. For what I know mixing in castes was forbiddden, so one group to have such an impact in one caste and to stay there for the time of Indias long history looks almost like a royal familly. Other groups could be in more than one caste only by previosly being lover and constanly approving in military sence to deserve position in upper caste.

    I personaly dont believe these people were present there from the start, because it would be very hard to stay in these castes through long Indian history, but more as some military elite who imposeed themselves on local population making a more strict caste rule. That is only my oppinion, I could be wrong.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    people of Georgia do origin from Laz people
    kingdom of Lazica matches fairly well spread of G in Caucasus




    Sarmatian Lazyges/Iazyges might be related but iranian speaking people....
    Ossetians of today are likely descendants of iranian speaking Sarmatians
    they also have very dominant haplogroup G as people of Georgia...
    Ossetians are by Russians also called Iasi which is same as Iazyges...
    however, they are considered to be descendant of Sarmatian Alans...
    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_6193.html



    question is whether some or all of G in Iberian peninsula is due to Alans who had there state together with Germanic Vandals and Suebi, or is some or all of it due to some previous inhabitants



    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg

    I would say that hotspot on the west is due to Lusitani
    Lusitani does indeed seems to be similar word to tribal name Laz

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 population in Europe as R1b1b2 Atlantic modal ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for a very large demographic expansion of the Europeans (mostly R1b1b2) so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age could explain it .
    It's not likely that G came from before ice age because it's not in basque country but spread by IE is even a sillier idea in my opinion.

    We have a huge group of nearly all G in neolithic europe. It's believed etruscans were G as well (some people who say they were etruscans are all G).

    The idea that a haplogroup forms by drift might be a big mistake, as the genes actually mean something. It could be that the G in europe did form here due to selection. It could be there was a lot more G in europe followed by a bottleneck that would also make it homogenous. It could be it all came from some civilization outside of caucus that was affected by climate change and we are seeing the only remnants. It's hard to say before but mostly we don't know much for sure, but hopefully will get a better picture in time.

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    It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.
    In the alps , the following numbers from Ftdna for alpine tests only ..........G2a3 is very high.

    N=190
    56 x R1b* 29.47%
    34 x G2* 17.89%
    31 x J2* 16.32%
    23 x E1b1b1 12.11%
    19 x I* 10.00%
    17 x R1a1* 8.95%
    4 x T1* 2.11%
    3 x L 1.58%
    2 x Q1b1 1.05%
    1 x C3 0.53%

    Of the G2*, 23 are G2a3.

    Of the I1, 10 are I1, 4 are I2b1 and 5 are I2a*

    My guess from reading the assyrian/armenian forums is that J2a4 ( there are 29 )numbers are most likely from bithynia, mysia or paphlongia .( northern Anatolia). Note ..only 1 is J1

    And for the T marker , 3 are T1b and 1 is T1a
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Very interesting Zanipolo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Very interesting Zanipolo.
    more on T for you, read also the comments which has some links

    http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.bl...inguistic.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    In the alps , the following numbers from Ftdna for alpine tests only ..........G2a3 is very high.

    N=190
    56 x R1b* 29.47%
    34 x G2* 17.89%
    31 x J2* 16.32%
    23 x E1b1b1 12.11%
    19 x I* 10.00%
    17 x R1a1* 8.95%
    4 x T1* 2.11%
    3 x L 1.58%
    2 x Q1b1 1.05%
    1 x C3 0.53%

    Of the G2*, 23 are G2a3.

    Of the I1, 10 are I1, 4 are I2b1 and 5 are I2a*

    My guess from reading the assyrian/armenian forums is that J2a4 ( there are 29 )numbers are most likely from bithynia, mysia or paphlongia .( northern Anatolia). Note ..only 1 is J1

    And for the T marker , 3 are T1b and 1 is T1a


    please, where these %s come from exactly? thanks beforehand

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    please, where these %s come from exactly? thanks beforehand
    Ftdna project forum.............so they are based on present population.

    The project manager with other genetic specialists does try to place these markers to ancient tribes. like
    G2a L30+ M406+Eastern Alpine? (Alpine-Illyrian?)

    R1b P312+ U152+ Z36+North Alpine? (Celtic?)

    I2 P217+ M223+ Z161+ Z76+ Rhine Valley/Central Germany? (Central European?)

    L M22+ M317+ DYS425=null Tyrolean/Ladin? (Italic-Med?)

    T M70+ L131+ L446+ Alpine/Italic? (Med-ME?)

    T M70+ L131+ L446+ Venetic/Adriatic? (Euro-Med?)

    I1⇢Z58⇢Z59⇢CTS8647⇢Z60⇢Z140⇢F2642⇢F2 735 candidate SE Alps, Anglo-Saxon ▶ Geno 2.0

    etc

    stated
    Name indications of the Y-DNA groups: First the main haplogroup and terminal SNPs are showed, then the past should be visible by 700 year steps. Ca. year 1300 by positions of the member ancestors. Ca. year 600 by first proposed position/culture. Ca. year 100 BC by proposed position/culture in parentesis. The grouping goal is to find clusters with Common Ancestor (see also MRCA) not more then 3,000 years ago. The prediction is higly speculative and can only be made if a 37/67 marker profile is in the group and public FTDNA-Projects Matches (or elsewhere) are available

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    In terms of hg G, these are the world's highest frequencies in the Middle East in order: Georgians (30-32%), Azerbaijanis (18-20%), Southern Egyptians (17%), Northern Iranians (15%), Southern Iranians (13%), Turks have about 10%. Assyrians from Iran also have about 9% as do Ashkenazi Jews (10%) and Armenians (10%). Libya has about 8% and Egypt averages around 7-9% with lows of 2% and highs of 17% depending on the region. Frequencies are surprisingly low on the Arabian peninsula and across the Levant.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.
    Freuquency ≠ origin. Though Georgia and Adyghe have high frequency of G2a, the most likely place of origin is somewhere between Iran-Levant-East Anatolia-South Caucasus.

    G2a in connection with the Southern or Mediterranean/Southwest Asian autosomal dna lets me assume that G2a reached Europe through Southeast Anatolia or the Levant.

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    I know. It crossed from turkey-Greece-southern Italy-Sardinia. Notice how I mentioned FREQUENCY not age or diversity.
    Last edited by adamo; 03-09-13 at 17:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I know. It crossed from turkey-Greece-southern Italy-Sardinia. Notice how I mentioned FREQUENCY not age or diversity.
    But you drew a wrong conclusion out of it. Based on frequency you consider Georgia the place where G2a came to Europe, read your own comment above.
    While the Levant, northern Mesopotamia or Anatolia is more likely the place where this Haplogroup started to migrate to Europe.

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    Then why is there a trail of G2a (P15) leading from Georgia, through Turkey, towards southern Italy/Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Ftdna project forum.............so they are based on present population.

    The project manager with other genetic specialists does try to place these markers to ancient tribes. like
    G2a L30+ M406+Eastern Alpine? (Alpine-Illyrian?)

    R1b P312+ U152+ Z36+North Alpine? (Celtic?)

    I2 P217+ M223+ Z161+ Z76+ Rhine Valley/Central Germany? (Central European?)

    L M22+ M317+ DYS425=null Tyrolean/Ladin? (Italic-Med?)

    T M70+ L131+ L446+ Alpine/Italic? (Med-ME?)

    T M70+ L131+ L446+ Venetic/Adriatic? (Euro-Med?)

    I1⇢Z58⇢Z59⇢CTS8647⇢Z60⇢Z140⇢F2642⇢F2 735 candidate SE Alps, Anglo-Saxon ▶ Geno 2.0

    etc

    stated
    Name indications of the Y-DNA groups: First the main haplogroup and terminal SNPs are showed, then the past should be visible by 700 year steps. Ca. year 1300 by positions of the member ancestors. Ca. year 600 by first proposed position/culture. Ca. year 100 BC by proposed position/culture in parentesis. The grouping goal is to find clusters with Common Ancestor (see also MRCA) not more then 3,000 years ago. The prediction is higly speculative and can only be made if a 37/67 marker profile is in the group and public FTDNA-Projects Matches (or elsewhere) are available
    Thanks for kind answer
    My problem is: these %s of Y-HGs and SNPs are not level in the Alps and far from to be, I suppose (Alps is a large geographic zone with complicated history) - and I rely not too much on these DNA projects because they very often distord the genuine statistical data, their data obtained by their methods of recruting sample - I think it is interesting trying to find common ancestors and pathways and to date them but as I understand it is with STRs yet... I prefer well defined chains of SNPs -
    thanks nevertheless

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I recall a (half controversed) metric survey concerning South-Central Anatolia "peasants" near or at çatal Hüyük near Konya in South Central present days Turkey and the anthropological correlations with fist Greece "peasants" (neolithic) and at some level with "Rubanés" or "LBK" "peasants" of central Europe; classified by classical anthropology as 'danubian mediterranean' (not too strict type, but with very typical features in details, separating them very easily from other 'mediterranean' types; these traits were found too at last Neolithic in Alsace (E-France) and in Normandy: if well based, the trail would be Anatolia/Dardanelles Strait/Greece and Mediterranea for a part and Danau river for the other part?
    If I remember well, an archeological (this time) trail was found between Anatolia (always Dardanelles) and the Eastern LBK-
    if it can help to complete the Y-DNA data - for Austria-Switzerland I remain sceptical because Danau river could have seen Alani Y-G2 as well as Danubian agricultors Y-G2 (I have not a detailed SNPs data for Austria so...?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    if it can help to complete the Y-DNA data - for Austria-Switzerland I remain sceptical because Danau river could have seen Alani Y-G2 as well as Danubian agricultors Y-G2 (I have not a detailed SNPs data for Austria so...?)
    Well, I already gave you a detailed Y-G2 on all of western Austria.( information is only 2 months old) I doubt you will find anything on eastern austria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Well, I already gave you a detailed Y-G2 on all of western Austria.( information is only 2 months old) I doubt you will find anything on eastern austria
    OK and sorry! I'll look at it again even if only about a region -
    it is true I now come on this forum only the week-end and I lack some regularity!
    have a good evening!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK and sorry! I'll look at it again even if only about a region -
    it is true I now come on this forum only the week-end and I lack some regularity!
    have a good evening!
    if you want the full report, email me privately your email address and I will attach it for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Then why is there a trail of G2a (P15) leading from Georgia, through Turkey, towards southern Italy/Sardinia?
    Probably because they belong to the same wave of Neolithic immigrants whom moved into Europe anf Georgia roughly the same time.

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    to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

    Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


    *: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
    link:
    www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885



    title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



    concerning Y-G:

    in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

    this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

    to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

    &: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



    as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



    the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

    The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

    as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
    whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
    as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
    globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

    Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


    *: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
    link:
    www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885



    title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



    concerning Y-G:

    in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

    this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

    to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

    &: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



    as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



    the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

    The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

    as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
    whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
    as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
    globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!
    thank you for information/analysis.
    I ask the following
    DYS390=22 for G ( or any other marker) is the largest at 75% of haplogroup G. It is only 1% of R1b. 92% of haplogroup T-L131

    according to old and new updated Heyer study, this very rarely changes/mutates, can we say its neolithic european?

    The Heyer study of 1997 recorded a mutation rate of zero for DYS390. Although the DYS390 marker has not exhibited a mutation rate as consistently low as DYS393 in other studies, the results of the Heyer study suggest that it is a relatively stable marker. As such, particular values of DYS390 may be acquired less often by random mutation, and therefore may be more likely to reflect a shared ancestry among the haplotypes that exhibit them.

    The sense we get from these AMH variations is that they occur predominantly among the
    Celts of continental Europe and their Teutonic brethren along the North Sea coast.

    as per link below DYS390 starts from anatolia, through bulgaria , then through central europe and manly in alpine, italy and german lands
    http://www.mymcgee.com/terrachart/Dys390InEurope.html


  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thank you for information/analysis.
    I ask the following
    DYS390=22 for G ( or any other marker) is the largest at 75% of haplogroup G. It is only 1% of R1b. 92% of haplogroup T-L131

    according to old and new updated Heyer study, this very rarely changes/mutates, can we say its neolithic european?

    The Heyer study of 1997 recorded a mutation rate of zero for DYS390. Although the DYS390 marker has not exhibited a mutation rate as consistently low as DYS393 in other studies, the results of the Heyer study suggest that it is a relatively stable marker. As such, particular values of DYS390 may be acquired less often by random mutation, and therefore may be more likely to reflect a shared ancestry among the haplotypes that exhibit them.

    The sense we get from these AMH variations is that they occur predominantly among the
    Celts of continental Europe and their Teutonic brethren along the North Sea coast.

    as per link below DYS390 starts from anatolia, through bulgaria , then through central europe and manly in alpine, italy and german lands
    http://www.mymcgee.com/terrachart/Dys390InEurope.html

    thanks, but I'm not sure I understand your point about DS390!?! (STR) you speak about AMH variations, which ones?
    what link with Y-G? I missed something, sure - could you go further in details, please
    waiting to read you, have a good afternoon - by the way, even if stable enough, DS390 is not immuable, I think

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

    Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


    *: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
    link:
    www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885



    title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



    concerning Y-G:

    in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

    this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

    to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

    &: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



    as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



    the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

    The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

    as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
    whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
    as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
    globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!
    I ANSWER TO ME/ no offense, Moesan!
    short: it seems Slavs (Slovenes?) colonized the northern and central parts of East Tyrol before germanization (we know this germanization occurred late enough) but a) were only a ruling "elite" without demic impact b) were numerous and got back after sometime (defeated by Latins?) without too much crossings and mixing, leaving their pastures placenames (Slavs had the REPUTATION (based?) of for destroying and renaming) c)- = close to b) were sweaped out during the germanic colonization (all the way leaving romance population under germanic rulers, and also their placenames - d) a romance population immigrated under germanic domination??? (less sensible)

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