G2a origins: what to believe?

[Sile]

I ANSWER TO ME/ no offense, Moesan!
short: it seems Slavs (Slovenes?) colonized the northern and central parts of East Tyrol before germanization (we know this germanization occurred late enough) but a) were only a ruling "elite" without demic impact b) were numerous and got back after sometime (defeated by Latins?) without too much crossings and mixing, leaving their pastures placenames (Slavs had the REPUTATION (based?) of for destroying and renaming) c)- = close to b) were sweaped out during the germanic colonization (all the way leaving romance population under germanic rulers, and also their placenames - d) a romance population immigrated under germanic domination??? (less sensible)

The slovenes must have arrived with the ostrogoths or behind them and the retreated once the germanic people came from the north into bavaria and then into modern Austria and slovenia. IMO it must be no more than 2 centuries if that, but carnico, friulian, ladin and rhaeto languages where spoken there and are still spoken there today, so how much influence did these slovenes have...........maybe it was onlya small ruling party, which forced the name changes

[epoch]

But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

Y-DNA is being transferred from fathers to sons only. I reckon that makes it more prone to changes than any other genetic marker. If a father has only daughters - or if only daughters of his offspring survive long enough to have children - his autosomal DNA will continue to spread among the population. However, his Y-DNA will not. And the chance that fathers will have only daughters is not minimal, as our current monarch shows. That may indicate that the amount of certain Y-DNA, especially in small communities, may not represent the actual amount of input in that community by the original bearers of that haplogroup.

[MOESAN]

OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

[Goga]

OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

What about I2a? It's possible that blond hair is actually from I2a folks or maybe not even from Y-DNA at all, but from mtDNA of females. I'm starting to believe that blond hair and white skin has nothing to do with R1a, because ancestor of R1a*, R1* was dark...

[MOESAN]

What about I2a? It's possible that blond hair is actually from I2a folks or maybe not even from Y-DNA at all, but from mtDNA of females. I'm starting to believe that blond hair and white skin has nothing to do with R1a, because ancestor of R1a*, R1* was dark...

I'm not sure it will be useful for the remote origin of y-G2a but
I was speaking about Alani a supposed iranic people of the steppes, and based upon the fact the most of steppic I-Ean tribes men had Y-R1a, I supposed (without any proof) the HG Y-R1a was heavier among them than Y-G2a, without exclude a certain % of this last HG
I had not in mind that these steppic I-Ean analysed had AND mostly Y-R1a AND mostly fair hair, but it is a fact if not my point in my previous post -

the genes for pigmentation and the Y-HG could not be linked one to another at the very beginning but statistically become linked at a point of History -
don't forget too that if Y-R1* was dark pigmented, light pigmentation arose later among dark pigmented people so some depigmented Y-R1* could give birth later to lighter populations of Y-R1a or Y-R1b (not by force all of them)- or marry with a lot of light pigmented females previously linked to an other Y-HG and progressively take its light pigmentation - by the way I doubt proto-historic Y-I2a were mostly light pigmented for hair -

[adamo]

G is found in 10-25% of males across all Iran and into Afghanistan/Pakistan, it also has the same presence in Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia region (Caucasus) and the Levantine coast. The Arabian peninsula and the central Middle East (Iraq,Syria) seem largely unaffected. This leads me to believe that G either originated near the Pamir knot region (Pakistan/Afghanistan) or on the Iranian peninsula itself, before migrating towards the Caucasus region heavily. From there the P15 branch shot towards south-Central Europe (Sardinia/southern italy). Look at the G map on Wikipedia, I am postulating an Iranian origin (G-M201) with a heavy movement solely towards the Caucasus region (G2a) with a small Neolithic arrival to south-central Mediterranean Europe.

[Kardu]

G2a1a1 seems to have come to Georgia from the North, from Europe most probably. Another widespread G2a in the Caucasus - G2a3b seems to be local or Anatolian.

[adamo]

Maybe from the southernmost Caucasus region just to the north of Georgia were Abkhazia and Ossetia would lie?

[nr9]

G2a seems to be older than R1a in Europe.

[Fluffy]

G2a seems to be older than R1a in Europe.

Yes it was in Europe before R1a, that's what ancient DNA tells us so far.

[Fluffy]

OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

DNA from the River Don tells us otherwise.

[Fluffy]

OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

And this is based on what?

[TheHistorian2]

Moesan, physical appearance is mostly influenced by admixture. R1b has a rather high occurence amongst people of Chad, Cameroon and Mali, yet they don't physically look similar to there European cousins, subclades aside.

If they lived amongst R1a populations as they did in the North Western Caucasus and the steppes of South Eastern Ukraine, then there is a big chance these groups interacted and mixed.

[TheHistorian2]

In a study conducted in 2014 by V.V. Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be abstracted from a total of 7. 4 of them turned out as belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 of them had mtDNA I. The fact that many of the samples share the same y- and mtDNA raises the possibility that the tested individuals belonged to the same tribe or even were close relatives. Nevertheless, this is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2 either.
In 2015 the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted researches on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In this analyses, the two Alan samples from 4th to 6th century AD turned out with yDNAs G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while from the three Sarmatian samples from 2nd to 3rd century AD two turned out both with yDNA J1-M267 and one with R1a.^[And the three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from 8th to 9th century AD turned out with yDNAs G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94 respectively^[

[Pierre1946]

23andMe tells me that my Paternal Haplogroup is G-Z16775 and is a branch from G-M201. But they cannot tell me very much about this group.
This is what they report:

Your paternal haplogroup, G-Z16775, traces back to a man who lived less than 11,000 years ago
That's nearly 440 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

G-Z16775 is relatively common among 23andMe customers.
Today, you share your haplogroup with all the men who are paternal-line descendants of the common ancestor of G-Z16775, including other 23andMe customers.

By the way: The ancestors of my father lived, for the past 200 - 300 year, in Belgium, in the provence of Antwerpen.

[peloponnesian]

23andMe tells me that my Paternal Haplogroup is G-Z16775 and is a branch from G-M201. But they cannot tell me very much about this group.
This is what they report:

Your paternal haplogroup, G-Z16775, traces back to a man who lived less than 11,000 years ago
That's nearly 440 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your paternal line.

G-Z16775 is relatively common among 23andMe customers.
Today, you share your haplogroup with all the men who are paternal-line descendants of the common ancestor of G-Z16775, including other 23andMe customers.

By the way: The ancestors of my father lived, for the past 200 - 300 year, in Belgium, in the provence of Antwerpen.

G-Z16775 is under G-L497, the most common G2a subclade in central/western/northern Europe. The L497 mutation must have happened somewhere in Central Europe and your haplogroup is definitely a lot younger than 11000 years ago (YFull gives a TMRCA of 4000 years ago). The ultimate origin is in Anatolia and came to Europe in the Neolithic period.

[paradinet]

Here's some information I have compiled and written about the origins and spread of G-M3302 (G-FGC5089 and possibly G-M406). Obviously a lot is speculation, but always interested in hearing questions, comments, concerns. I also have a lot more on my M3302 website: https://sites.google.com/view/gm3302/g-m3302/ (sorry can't post links yet)

The prevailing theory regarding those bearing the M3302 SNP mutation is that it likely first formed around 6,000 BCE among Native Anatolians living along the bend of the Halys (Kızılırmak) River as well as the southern coast of the Black Sea in Central Anatolia. In those days, the now barren landscape of Central Anatolia was in part covered by dense forest.

The men of M3302 likely lived along side men of its sister clades downstream from M406 and FGC5089 in small semi-permanent settlements which would be abandoned for more favorable nearby locations as resources and materials ran dry. They do not appear to have developed permanent settlements or experienced the population explosion during the Neolithic that famously spurred their G2a cousins into Europe.

Instead, these men almost certainly made up a percentage of the Hattian civilization that flourished in the Early Bronze AgeToday all men bearing G-M3302 appear to descend from a man bearing the mutation who lived about 5,000 BCE, at a time when the first metal implements made with copper began to appear in Anatolia. The oldest G-M3302 YDNA sample was found in Camlibel Tarlasi (near the ancient city of Hattusa) circa 3500 BCE. Autosomally, the sample shared about 50% of its ancestry with its G2a cousins to the south and west who occupied some of the world's first settlements like Çatalhöyük, Boncuklu, Göbekli Tepe, Hasilar, Pinarbasi, etc. suggesting a common descent sometime during the Mesolithic period. In addition they sample held about 30% Caucuses Hunter Gatherer, 15% Natufian (Levant), and about 10% from the Iranian Mesolithic.

The settlement of Camlibel Tarlasi was situated on a low plateau within a narrow valley branching off from the main plain. They were likely drawn to the site due to a nearby deposit of copper ore and evidence of metallurgical activity is found throughout the site. The houses unearthed at the sight contained graves under the floors and several skeletons show signs of body modification and skull elongation. Livestock, particularly pigs played a large role in their sustenance. There was also evidence of trade from exotic Flint blades, to Mediterranean shells, and Obsidian from Cappadocia.

Due to its deposits of Copper, Central Anatolia played an important role in the advancement of metallurgy that led to the Bronze Age. The Native Anatolians flourished as bronze metallurgy spread to Anatolia from the Kura-Araxes culture in the late 4th millennium BCE. Settlements began to prosper in the region as a result of an enhance trade network and innovations. One city, Hattusa, became the focal point of what would become known as the Hattian civilization.

The Hattians were a non-Indo-European indigenous people and almost certainly G-M3302 (FGC5089 and M406) made up a sizable percentage of it's male lines. The Hattians had a special relationship with Assyrians traders from Mesopotamia who provided them with the tin needed to make bronze and connected Anatolia with the greater Mesopotamian world at large. These trading posts or Karums played an important role in Anatolia the fall or Assyria and the rise of the Hittites in around 1700 BC. These Karums represented separate residential areas where the traders lived, protected by the Hattians, and paying taxes in return. We find an ancient M406 sample in the burnt remains of an Assyrian trade building at Kaman-Kalehöyük. The sample dated from 2000-1750 BCE and was likely killed in the Hittite destruction of the city.

The Hittites were an Indo-European people who many scholars speculate had occupied some areas of Anatolia for hundreds of years before they came into direct and sustained conflict with the Hattian people. By about 1600 BCE, the Hittites subjected and assimilated the native Hattian people, although many aspects of Hattian society remained. The Hittites adopted the Hattian capital of Hatusa as their own and even called themselves "Hittites" as in "People of the land of Hatti". In all likelihood the conquest was a merging of the two cultures, and almost assuredly the smaller Hattian farming communities that supplied larger Hittite strongholds remained primarily Hattian in ancestry. They were Iron Age pioneers who began manufacturing iron artifacts around 1400 BCE. This is significant because the Hittites’ use of iron and steel created tools and weapons that were more efficient than their Bronze Age contemporaries.

While the Hittites would become strong enough to control much of Anatolia by 1350 BCE, their power in Asia Minor waxed and waned. In part this was because the Hittites were under constant attack, mainly from the Kaska, a non-Indo-European people settled in the mountain regions along the central Black Sea coast. The Kaska were possibly a wilder, unvanquished remnant of the Hattic peoples and may have had sizable percentages of G-M3302, G-FGC5089, and G-M406. Men with this lineage were also likely found among the Hayasa-Azzi, a territory hostile to the Hittites, west of Hatussa. The Hayasans are thought to have played a role in the ethnogenesis, or genetic makeup of the Armenians who today have a sizable percentage of G-M406.

Despite periods of decline, the Hittite empire was quite powerful, waging war and establishing tributary states along the western shore of the Aegean Sea. For a time, the empire even rivaled the Egyptians, standing toe to toe with them at the famous battle of Kanesh in 1274 BCE. It is very likely men of G-M3302, G-FGC5089, and G-M406 marched in the Hittite armies, farmed the empire's fields, and potentially settling in other areas of Anatolia as the empire shifted and expanded. Ultimately however, the Hittite Empire vanished from historical records around 1180 BCE during a period known as the Bronze Age collapse. While the identity of the peoples who enveloped the once mighty empire is unknown, some speculate it was a combined onslaught from new waves of invaders, the Kaska, Phrygians, Bryges, and possibly the Hayasans.

As Anatolia and the Mediterranean World began to shift into the Iron Age, Anatolian states such as Phrygia and Lydia occupied parts of Central and Western Anatolia. In addition, colonists from mainland Greece began to Hellenize the Western coast of Asia Minor forming flourishing Ionian, Aeolian, and Dorian Greek cities that were genetically Greek and Anatolian. In Lebanon and Syria, remnants of the Hittite Empire persisted known as the Syro-Hittite states possibly leaving a genetic impact on the later sea faring Phoenicians.

The Phoenicians famously colonized North Africa, founding Carthage a city who itself founded colonies in Sicily, Sardinia, France, and Spain. Meanwhile, the Ionian city state Miletus founded many colonies along the Black Sea. Other Greek cities in Asia Minor would heavily colonize Sicily and Southern Italy. In addition one city, Phocaea was famous for founding the Southern French Port City of Massalia (Marseilles) as well as others in France, Sicily, Corsica, and Spain. One theory on how G-M3302, G-FGC5089, and G-M406 reached Europe is via this colonization ultimately carrying men who descended from Anatolia to the Western Mediterranean. Certainly the Roman Empire is a prime candidate for how G-M3302 may have spread out of places like Sicily and Southern Italy, and into places like France, Germany, Belgium, and England. The men of Anatolia provided many men for the Roman Legions and have been proven to have migrated to Rome as either lower class citizens or slaves.

The Persians conquered Lydia in 547 BCE and turned their attention to the Greek City states on the eastern shores of the Aegean Sea. The Greeks, particularly under the reign of Darius in 500 BCE, resisted Persian rule. One aspect of this resistance was an increased incentive to colonize safer locations in the Western Mediterranean. However, after several years of fighting the Persians crushed the rebelling Greek cities in Asian Minor and is said to have deported many of the Greek rebels to India [Perisan lands on the eastern side of their Empire] as punishment.

With the final defeat of the Persians by Alexander the Great of Macedonia, the Greek cities of Asia Minor were freed and Greek influence began to spread throughout Anatolia. As Alexanders armies pushed eastward, it conquered territories in modern day Pakistan known as Bactria. After Alexander's death, Greeks settled and occupied the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom from 256 to 125 BCE and even an Indo-Greek Kingdom that spanned from 180 BCE to 10 CE. Could these forces of history have left a Bronze Age Anatolian imprint among the peoples of Afghanistan and Pakistan? It is possible. There is an ancient G-M406 skeleton found along the Oxus River Valley in Tajikistan, 40 miles from the Ancient City of Bactra and dating to around 0 CE. While it appeared the ancient man identified culturally as a Kushan (and perhaps may have been more Kushan than Greek), these were the people who conquered the Bactrians Greeks and may have quite easily assimilated some of the Greco Bactrians of mixed heritage.

In the time after Alexander, the empowered former Greek colonies along the Black Sea founded the Kingdom of Pontus. This entity occupied much of the coastal territory inhabited by the Hattians, Kaska, and Hayasans and their Hittite enemies a thousand years before. Later it would be absorbed into the Roman Empire and subsequently to the Byzantines. They Byzantines themselves reconquered and possessed holdings in Southern Italy for several centuries after the fall of the West. There are many more historical examples of migration that would have also spread this genetic signature around the world, including the rather recent flow of peoples out of Central Anatolia such as the Armenians and Pontic Greeks who often reestablished themselves in the Caucuses, Russia, and in Mainland Greece.

[Hawk]

I have heard Snoop Dogg is G2a lol.

[Hawk]

lol. I heard that Hitler was E1b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD6Ym34XsYM :)

haha, yeah we know about Hitler, but i am serious about Snoop Dogg. I find him hilarious btw. I would swap Snoopie with Hitler at any day.

[kingjohn]

I have heard Snoop Dogg is G2a lol.

it is possible
some african americans have y haplogroup of the white
colonial males just like in the case of r1b % among them

[saintm]

I know I wont contribute much to this convo but im Scandinavian g2a3b z-726 with autosomal dna 53% yamnaya, 31%tur_barcin, 14%wgh 1.8% baltic_drift_HG.

What does that say about me lol