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    G2a origins: what to believe?

    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.
    i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??
    Nico

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    Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?
    Yes the Franks is a good example as you know Luis XVI the last King of France was probably G2a3b1 so his lineage comes from Netherlands the Frankish homeland . Also some G2a3b1 were found in a Frank burial in Bavaria

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??
    Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.



    It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.



    It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.
    I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?
    Haplogroup G is also common in Iran and Afganistan and found at least as far as the Indian subcontinent. However the eastern variety is typically G1 (G2a is sometimes found, but at very low frequencies).

    In the Levant, the most common form of G is G2c (found mostly in people of Jewish descent).

    G2b also exists, but AFAIK is restricted to a few lineages in Turkey.

    Because G1 peaks in Iran, G2a1 in the Caucasus, G2b in Anatolia and G2c in the Levant, it is hard to believe that G2a3 could have originated anywhere else but in this region, probably in Anatolia.

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    But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
    fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
    are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

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    Since, I am still not allowed to use URLs, imagine here images that Maciamo has posted...

    It's hard to see correlation between spread of G2a and of R1b-U152...perhaps with idea that carriers of R1b-U152 came from Caucasus where they assimilated some G2a and than came via Asia minor, one can get fuzzy idea of R1b-U152 spreading it over Europe... but while this may distantly look as good theory for low percentage areas it certainly doesnot explain peaks... since those do not correlate at all with peaks of R1b-U152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures
    I do not think it has anything to do with proto-Celtic and Celtic Hallstaat & La Tenne cultures... it is rather naive approach to take genetic distribution of frequencies of some haplogroup as it is today, and to try to match it to a population that has inhabited area thousands years ago.... that assumes there are no major movement of people and no wars...
    but history teach us something different....
    if one wants to make conclusions about distant past, he/she should better use variance of the haplogroup... because it remains present longer...even after the carriers of the group has mostly left the area...

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    Hi G2a Netherlands,

    Since you have done your y-dna test with FTDNA. You can go into your personal account and you will see what subclade of G2a you belong too.

    Then Google: haplogroup G phylogentic tree, and then go to ISOGG tree. Your subclade will appear in "descending order". This will give you an approximate timeline to when your subclade "split" from the previous subclade.

    Our G haplogroup "split/seperated" from HG F about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago according to most geneticists. The descending order from oldest to youngest is,. G Oldest, , G1, G1* , and then it moves furtherdown (younger) to G2a etc. .For instance according to my father's subclade G2a31b1a we "split" from G2a3b1a1 about 2,500 years ago.

    If your own subclade is above my number your ancestors lived "somewhere" more than 2,500-3000 years ago. If your subclade is "downstream" then you have to research your subclade to see when they split from the previous subclade for deep ancestral origins.

    Melusine

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    Correction to my paternal y-dna.

    Our subclade is G2a3b1a1A we split from G2a2b1a1.

    Melusine

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    I cannot believe that the Dutch haplogroup G came from the Allans.
    Never the Allans arrived in the Netherlands.

    Haplogroup G is rather frequent on the ancient island of Urk. The inhabitants
    are fishermen who interbred with each others during many centuries.
    They are strictly calvistic and closed. Real Germanics! Dark eyes and dark
    hair are very rare, but 50% of the population have dair hair with blue
    eyes. I suppose real Aurignac/Bruenn survivors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

    Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
    1) Neolithic immigrants
    2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
    3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
    4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.
    It all depends what subclade of G2a you are talking about. You can be pretty sure that over 95% of G2a in Europe arrived during the Neolithic or early Bronze Age.


    And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

    Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.
    Having a degree from Harvard doesn't matter much in the budding field of population genetics. There is hardly any past knowledge to acquire. All opinions are built on the progressive flow of recent data, once analytical abilities and knowledge of (pre)history. 10 years ago virtually nothing was known about haplogroups. No later than 3 years ago, the "scientific establishment" were still convinced that R1b lineages descended from the Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnon), who repopulated Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the last Ice Age. This also included Spencer Wells.

    I was one of the first to realise that R1b could not have originated in Western Europe, but more probably in central Asia, while R1b1b could have spread from the Caucasus and Black Sea region. Indeed, R1b1b2 probably only arrived in Western Europe during the early Bronze Age, with the Indo-European migrations. There are still many people out there who believe that R1b1b2 represents the Neolithic expansion from the Near East, which I think is absurd considering the low percentage of R1b in the Levant and in the Balkans (the two hotspots of Neolithic expansion).

    It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b1 subclade, which surely isn't that old.

    If G2a3 entered Europe during the Neolithic, it would have been through the southern route, from Anatolia to Greece, Italy, France and Iberia. So much is obvious from the geographic distribution. The problem is the timing. Agriculture (see map) reached Italy some 8000 years ago, and Britain about 6000 years ago. Recent STR calculations estimate G2a3 to be approximately 6000 years old and G2a3b1 about 5000 years old. Age estimation based on STR's is far from an exact science. It could be completely mistaken. But if it is more or less correct, then G2a3 could only have arrived with the Indo-European migration in the early Bronze Age. There is, generally speaking, a geographic correlation between G2a3 and R1b-P312/S116, especially the Gallo-Italic subclade R1b-U152/S28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b subclade, which surely isn't that old.
    Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

    Is this not possible then:
    G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

    Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2aNetherlands View Post
    Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

    Is this not possible then:
    G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

    Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.
    Very, very unlikely that G2a entered Europe during the Paleolithic. The highest density of G2a in the world is found in the Caucasus. The Caucasus and Anatolia also have the greatest genetic diversity of G2a.

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    join ftdna project G
    Last edited by willy; 24-10-10 at 00:14.

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    To all G-men and their "official contact person".

    Google: ftdna haplogroup y-dna haplogroup G project.

    This is the best forum for haplgroup G's , there are about 2,000 members (all subclades ) world wide.

    Contact the administrator as to how to "join". Your results MUST be posted in a Public website such as y-search to join this G group. If you have tested with a company other than FTDNA the group administrator will advise you how to post your G results in order to join.

    IF you do not belong to hg G, you are not allowed to join.

    You will learn the very latest news and information about hg G and it's subclades . The group is "sanctioned by FTDNA".

    Melusine

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    OK TY this is clear

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    As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

    if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a

    The island was part of the Hittite empire during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.[31]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

    Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
    this peak is related to Liburnians

    I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
    why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...
    Labarna I
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Labarna I was the traditional first King of the Hittites, ca. the early 16th century BC (short chronology).
    Labarna is the traditional founder of the Hittite Old Kingdom (fl. ca. 1600 – 1450 BC), though his existence is sometimes questioned by modern scholars.
    ...What little is known about him is culled mainly from the Edict of Telipinu, which states that he overwhelmed his enemies and "made them borders of the sea",[1] a statement which may refer to conquests as far as the Mediterranean coast in the south, and the Black Sea in the north.
    ...
    Labarna was actually a title of the early Hittite rulers,[2] rather than a personal name.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

    if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

    Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
    this peak is related to Liburnians

    I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
    why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I
    Thank you I am convicted I do agree this old settlement of G2a in Anatolia is matching to the Hittites I believe the Hittites were the real people of Anatolia as Renfrew the Indo European cradle was on this area or from the Armenian plateau or Caucasus in correlation to the Hattis the Hurrians and also the Kassites all these people are involved in the earlier Indo Aryan language or the proto Indo European all are sharing the same deities. Anyway G2a3b1 in Europe comes from these civilizations probably during the bronze age or more recently among the Alans or other tribes from this era ? The first hypothesis was about the Roman suppletives so I wonder why when the Roman Empire was defeated these suppletives were associated to the Germanic tribes ? I have some doubts about this hypothesis and also about the real demographic impact of these suppletives among the Romans on the European population ...
    Last edited by willy; 28-10-10 at 18:53.

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    To all,

    Since hopefully I can now post a URL, here is the URL for: haplogroup G ftdna project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    If this does not work Yahoo. ftdna hapgroup g y-dna project. (once you are in the project keep scrolling down to view all the tested parties results.)

    This site, shows all males in the world who are of haplogroup G (only) that have tested with ftdna and their results. Only their kit numbers and surnames are posted.

    Starting with haploclade G1 all results are in desending order. Just like in a genealogy chart. The "ancestor is G1 and his son's and their son's etc (in thousands of years) split down the line (downstream) with each number (G2) and then with mutations the sons split into subgroups like G2a, G2b , etc etc. In order for anyone to understand who came first , one would do well to look up this project.

    Please do note the surname names of the beginning posted results, they "appear" to be of Middle Eastern origins. Also there are more than a few self identified (men) in "Jewish clusters".

    Melusine

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    Hi!

    If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
    If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
    Last edited by DejaVu; 30-10-10 at 19:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Hi!
    If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
    If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
    Regards
    Dean
    Let's not jump to conclusions...
    It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...


    note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
    this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..

    I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...

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    Let's now pay attention to areas that lack G2a




    Note now the lack of G2a spread in area of Paeonia and Epirus..
    They are in between two waves of G2a, south one that came from Asia minor with ancient Macedonians mostly, and north one that probably came with Thracians and related tribes either from Caucasus or Asia minor..
    I would say that that Paeonians were there before G2a waves..
    they could have been original settlers of that area..

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