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Thread: Who were Scythians?

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    Who were Scythians?

    180 BC Scythians are noth of Bactria and Sogdiana

    .................................................. .......................................
    100 BC Scythians include Bactria, Sogdiana, and Indo-Scythians

    .................................................. ....................................
    I think R1a was a continuum from India to Poland until it was cut into 2 parts by advance of Scythians or their ancestors...

    by comparing previous figure with spread of Skythians in historical times (100 BC), I think that Scythians were only marginally having R1a (e.g. Indo-Scythians were mix of R1a with original Scythians, as was the case in Bactria and Sogdiana that were probably originally domiantly R1a but conquered by original Scythians)

    in fact, I think Scythians were akin to people from Kazahstan.. maninly haplogroup C3...

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    C3 is most likely to have been brought to Central Asia by the Turkic speakers (from Mongolia) from the 4th century CE onwards, and reinforced by the Mongol invasions of Genghis Khan and his successors in the 13th century. This is the most likely explanation for the high incidence of East Asian blood in Central Asia nowadays.

    You can't just look at one selected segment of history and infer modern haplogroup distribution to one ethnic group at one given time 2000 years ago. You have to look back at the whole history and work your way backward from the present by removing the haplogroups brought by the latest invaders, one by one, until the period you wish to analyse. Your approach is completely mistaken as you jump directly from present to the Antiquity without looking at what happened in between.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    C3 is most likely to have been brought to Central Asia by the Turkic speakers (from Mongolia) from the 4th century CE onwards, and reinforced by the Mongol invasions of Genghis Khan and his successors in the 13th century. This is the most likely explanation for the high incidence of East Asian blood in Central Asia nowadays.

    You can't just look at one selected segment of history and infer modern haplogroup distribution to one ethnic group at one given time 2000 years ago. You have to look back at the whole history and work your way backward from the present by removing the haplogroups brought by the latest invaders, one by one, until the period you wish to analyse. Your approach is completely mistaken as you jump directly from present to the Antiquity without looking at what happened in between.
    actually, I was not skipping whole history,,,
    I was thinking about it...but without prejudice and without expecting it to justify some illusions...
    reason that I think Scythians were C3 is that no other haplogroup in that area has even little correlation with spread of Scythians... I started assuming I could find by looking also at small frequencies possible make-up of Scythians...and I didnot expect C3....I tried to combine European haplogroups as I expected that Scythians have been R1a, perhaps R1b or mix of those....but to my surprise C3 was perfect match, while anything else or any combination of others was not looking even as distant match
    so I wanted to share idea, and see what will other people think...

    and while C3 could be spread of Turkish tribes, those tribes never actually controlled anything south of line that connects certain point of Caspian lake coast with south corner of lake east of it (that is they never controlled Chorasmia, Sogdiana, Bactria) while C3 was there and exactly matching with its shape the historically attested spread of Scythians.....

    look at maximal spread of Turkish tribes (Kyptchak)


    than I was looking again shape of Scythian empire southern from that area and noticed that it matches exactly C3 haplogroup



    than I wondered if it is possible that C3 was spread of Scythians, so I looked at their culture, at what was written about them, what were the details of their culture, and it all looked very turkic to me...



    after looking their cultural artifacts, it was clear they could have been only turkic/mongolic people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    180 BC Scythians are noth of Bactria and Sogdiana

    .................................................. .......................................
    100 BC Scythians include Bactria, Sogdiana, and Indo-Scythians

    .................................................. ....................................
    I think R1a was a continuum from India to Poland until it was cut into 2 parts by advance of Scythians or their ancestors...

    by comparing previous figure with spread of Skythians in historical times (100 BC), I think that Scythians were only marginally having R1a (e.g. Indo-Scythians were mix of R1a with original Scythians, as was the case in Bactria and Sogdiana that were probably originally domiantly R1a but conquered by original Scythians)

    in fact, I think Scythians were akin to people from Kazahstan.. maninly haplogroup C3...


    And look at the haplogroup G ?
    Nico

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    willy, this is actually very good idea...
    you can clearly see shapes of Scythian largest spread and how it slowly retreated towards south, while finally being splitted in two parts: one on Caucasus and other part going to Sogdia and Bactria...




    that would also explain why Sarmatians are related to Scythians...
    legend says they are result of Scythian man mixing with Amazones woman...
    in fact Sarmatians probably were tribal union with G2a and I2....
    and Amazones we can find in Asiatic Sarmatia next to Serbi (I2) and close to Alani (G2a)
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 01-11-10 at 00:12.

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    how yes no,

    What are you talking about? Y-DNA cannot be Mixed/combined. R1a is the "parent" (it came before R1b) of R1b. Have you looked up the R haplogroup Phylogenetic tree? All these maps show are populaton/migrations patterns of our ancestors.

    Migrations and Cultures do not change your y-dna that occurred during "conception".

    Melusine

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    willy, this is actually very good idea...
    you can clearly see shapes of Scythian largest spread and how it slowly retreated towards south, while finally being splitted in two parts: one on Caucasus and other part going to Sogdia and Bactria...




    that would also explain why Sarmatians are related to Scythians...
    legend says they are result of Scythian man mixing with Amazones woman...
    in fact Sarmatians probably were tribal union with G2a and I2....
    and Amazones we can find in Asiatic Sarmatia next to Serbi (I2) and close to Alani (G2a)
    Good how yes no ! I give you now a very confidential info not a joke : Go there and you will find where we have found recently (a scoop ! ) the lost tribe : I mean the "G2a3b1 L140+ DYS 388 = 13" called the European cluster the "most common G2a haplogroup" found in Northwest Europeans ( 1 % ;- ) ) .. so now what we could imagine about this migration on Europe ? tell me your feeling please

    http://maps.google.fr/maps?f=q&sourc...,39.506836&z=5


    This is exactly where this young girl is living and also her ancestors for thousands of years anyway here : there is ZERO R1b1b2 ZERO German ZERO Celt ZERO European so from where on the maps her ancestors or her tribe come from ?


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    There might have been some Turkic or Mongolian admixture with the tribes traditionally considered to be Scythians. From what I have read the Scythian language was an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch. The Y DNA that I have read about from the majority of skeletons described as being Scythian is R1a. Therefore it is my belief that the Scythians are descended from the original Indo-Europeans that went west and wandered the vast plains of Central Europe. Possibly related to the Caucasoid mummies found in the Tarim basin that are associated with the Tocharians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Good how yes no ! I give you now a very confidential info not a joke : Go there (Rasht in Gilan province, Northern Iran) and you will know where we have found recently the lost tribe I mean the G2a3b1 L140+ DYS 388 = 13 called European cluster the most common haplogroup found in Northwest Europeans .. so now what we could imagine about this migration ? tell me your feeling please
    ...
    What population could you find here ? take a look where this young Iranian girl live there is ZERO R1b1b2 ZERO German ZERO Celts so from where on the maps her ancestors come from ?
    I have no clue... I do not have psychic capabilities.. I can only guess based on clues...
    here is difficult...any population passing from Iran through Caucasus towards north would have to pass there and could carry with it G2a from there... this is the case since only way to pass easily through Caucasus (through plains and not over mountains) is next to Caspian lake


    there was I cluster dwelling down there..but I could not figure out who were them... G might have arrived with them...


    It might have been either early migration with German I1 or later migration with Sarmatians/Scythians (I2 & G)

    it is also possible that this G cluster was not originally there, that it moved to south when Scythian/Sarmatian power was decreasing... which than increase possibilities... but than it would be more spread around especially north of current position...

    I know!!
    Scythians were historically recorded dwelling on that place...
    check out these maps:
    http://www.imninalu.net/maps.htm

    actually, this in fact indicates that that cluster of I there was likely part of Scythians together with G...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    There might have been some Turkic or Mongolian admixture with the tribes traditionally considered to be Scythians. From what I have read the Scythian language was an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch. The Y DNA that I have read about from the majority of skeletons described as being Scythian is R1a. Therefore it is my belief that the Scythians are descended from the original Indo-Europeans that went west and wandered the vast plains of Central Europe. Possibly related to the Caucasoid mummies found in the Tarim basin that are associated with the Tocharians.
    I will say G2a2b1 and G2a1 + R1a as the Kalash people have 20 % R1a + 20% G2a the rest are H and L at low %

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    how yes no,

    What are you talking about? Y-DNA cannot be Mixed/combined. R1a is the "parent" (it came before R1b) of R1b. Have you looked up the R haplogroup Phylogenetic tree? All these maps show are populaton/migrations patterns of our ancestors.

    Migrations and Cultures do not change your y-dna that occurred during "conception".

    Melusine
    perhaps I didnot express myself well...
    I was talking about combined as in existing in same population... populations can be mixed/combined...
    e.g. in this case, tribe of Scythians dwelling on south of Caspian lake was perhaps mix of I2 and G2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I have no clue... I do not have psychic capabilities.. I can only guess based on clues...
    here is difficult...any population passing from Iran through Caucasus towards north would have to pass there and could carry with it G2a from there... this is the case since only way to pass easily through Caucasus (through plains and not over mountains) is next to Caspian lake


    there was I cluster dwelling down there..but I could not figure out who were them... G might have arrived with them...


    It might have been either early migration with German I1 or later migration with Sarmatians/Scythians (I2 & G)

    it is also possible that this G cluster was not originally there, that it moved to south when Scythian/Sarmatian power was decreasing... which than increase possibilities... but than it would be more spread around especially north of current position...

    I know!!
    Scythians were historically recorded dwelling on that place...
    check out these maps:
    http://www.imninalu.net/maps.htm

    actually, this in fact indicates that that cluster of I there was likely part of Scythians together with G...
    OK G2a3b1 L140+ DYS 388 = 13 is 4500 years old just fine to the bronze age
    so it was a mystery to find these G2a3b1 at few level in Europe because on comparison with the Caucasus G2a people this is giving us a pattern migration of 2000 - 2500 years maximum so what historical migration was involved from north Iran to Germany - France - Holland - UK at that time ? (about the girl her ancestors come from Caucasus she is Indo Iranian not Swedish : Photograph taken in 1971 by Ali Massoudi of a girl from Rasht in Gilan province, Northern Iran
    (Source: R. Tarverdi (Editor) & A. Massoudi (Art editor),
    The land of Kings, Tehran: Rahnama Publications, 1971, p.116).)

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    OK G2a3b1 L140+ DYS 388 = 13 is 4500 years old just fine to the bronze age
    so it was a mystery to find these G2a3b1 at few level in Europe because on comparison with the Caucasus G2a people this is giving us a pattern migration of 2000 - 2500 years maximum so what historical migration was involved from north Iran to Germany - France - Holland - UK at that time ? (about the girl her ancestors come from Caucasus she is Indo Iranian : Photograph taken in 1971 by Ali Massoudi of a girl from Rasht in Gilan province, Northern Iran
    (Source: R. Tarverdi (Editor) & A. Massoudi (Art editor),
    The land of Kings, Tehran: Rahnama Publications, 1971, p.116).)
    mutation that came to existance 4500 years ago (if that can really be estimated correctly in which I doubt) and exists now on two remote locations, means that migration could took place any time between now and ~4400 years ago...right?

    If there is a cluster in Germanic countries, I think that might indicate that it travelled with Germanic tribe, and thus also that Germanic tribes did arrive to Europe sometimes between 0BC and 2500 BC most likely between 500BC and 1500BC...

    Besides if names Germania and Aria are preserved both by nation as names expressing self-identity and they still exist in the region from where they origin, I would say it could not have been too distant in time migration... maybe 2500-3000 years ago..

    but it's good to keep in mind that here we talk about place of origin where history attest Scythian tribe

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    mutation that came to existance 4500 years ago (if that can really be estimated correctly in which I doubt) and exists now on two remote locations, means that migration could took place any time between now and ~4400 years ago...right?

    If there is a cluster in Germanic countries, I think that might indicate that it travelled with Germanic tribe, and thus also that Germanic tribes did arrive to Europe sometimes between 0BC and 2500 BC most likely between 500BC and 1500BC...

    Besides if names Germania and Aria are preserved both by nation as names expressing self-identity and they still exist in the region from where they origin, I would say it could not have been too distant in time migration... maybe 2500-3000 years ago..

    but it's good to keep in mind that here we talk about place of origin where history attest Scythian tribe
    Yes correct so in that case we can imagine a tribe somewhere around the Caucasus who came to north Iran and Europe it means the same people were separated in their migration ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes correct so in that case we can imagine a tribe somewhere around the Caucasus who came to north Iran and Europe it means the same people were separated in their migration ?
    I think that tribes in older days typically did not move completely somewhere, but would split... that is survival tactics, because you need to keep the base so you have where to return to... eventually, after making a set of basis tribes travels some distance and the idea of first base is lost...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think that tribes in older days typically did not move completely somewhere, but would split... that is survival tactics, because you need to keep the base so you have where to return to... eventually, after making a set of basis tribes travels some distance and the idea of first base is lost...
    Seems natural to a survival tactics and give more chance to survived this is what happens when the humans (it was a tribe at first ) went out Africa to Asia they took different directions . If they stayed united just an epidemic could erase the population ..

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    Com'on guys, population move is not a chess game. There are many reason for people to move, and most of them are not nice. If people have a great location, lots of food, they don't want to move. The moves are usually forced. The reasons are many, like: overpopulation, tribal wars, climate change, hordes of nasty enemies, etc.
    The Iranian/Aryan tribes were located east of Caspian sea, the climate then was more moist, and they had build many big cities there. About 2 000 BC, their region got drier and they moved south to India. They were mostly R1a people.
    The stories/history about Aryans were discovered by British when they conquered India.
    There is nothing about Aryans leaving Iran and walking to Germany though. This is really too big of a stretch. You shouldn't build a theory on couple of similar names, and spot of I hg in Iran by Caspian sea.
    If I moved from Asia to Europe it would need to be much earlier, more than 6 thousand years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Com'on guys, population move is not a chess game. There are many reason for people to move, and most of them are not nice. If people have a great location, lots of food, they don't want to move. The moves are usually forced. The reasons are many, like: overpopulation, tribal wars, climate change, hordes of nasty enemies, etc.
    The Iranian/Aryan tribes were located east of Caspian sea, the climate then was more moist, and they had build many big cities there. About 2 000 BC, their region got drier and they moved south to India. They were mostly R1a people.
    The stories/history about Aryans were discovered by British when they conquered India.
    There is nothing about Aryans leaving Iran and walking to Germany though. This is really too big of a stretch. You shouldn't build a theory on couple of similar names, and spot of I hg in Iran by Caspian sea.
    If I moved from Asia to Europe it would need to be much earlier, more than 6 thousand years ago.
    Yes I agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, I was not skipping whole history,,,
    I was thinking about it...but without prejudice and without expecting it to justify some illusions...
    reason that I think Scythians were C3 is that no other haplogroup in that area has even little correlation with spread of Scythians... I started assuming I could find by looking also at small frequencies possible make-up of Scythians...and I didnot expect C3....I tried to combine European haplogroups as I expected that Scythians have been R1a, perhaps R1b or mix of those....but to my surprise C3 was perfect match, while anything else or any combination of others was not looking even as distant match
    so I wanted to share idea, and see what will other people think...

    and while C3 could be spread of Turkish tribes, those tribes never actually controlled anything south of line that connects certain point of Caspian lake coast with south corner of lake east of it (that is they never controlled Chorasmia, Sogdiana, Bactria) while C3 was there and exactly matching with its shape the historically attested spread of Scythians.....

    after looking their cultural artifacts, it was clear they could have been only turkic/mongolic people...
    Sorry to disappoint you but all* the ancient DNA tests done in Central Asia during the Scythian period (600 BCE - 300 AD) turned out to be exclusively R1a1. That's one of the best studied region in term of ancient Y-DNA. The older Andronovo samples were also R1a1, and so were the Tocharian ones from Xinjiang.

    * 8 out of 8 skeletons in Scythian kurgans tested in 3 separate studies.

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    This is not enough they were not exclusively R1a this is not possible there are mixed DNA found for a paleolithic period so one haplogroup for a group and a cultural period as Scythians is curious they were mixed .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    This is not enough they were not exclusively R1a this is not possible there are mixed DNA found for a paleolithic period so one haplogroup for a group and a cultural period as Scythians is curious they were mixed .
    They were surely mixed, but their elite seemed to be overwhelmingly R1a1 based on the remains of several tombs scattered over very different locations, separated in time by many centuries.

    If C3 did come only from the 4th century with the Turkic migrations, then the Scythians probably belong for the biggest part to R1a1 (I'd say over 60%, perhaps even 80%), with a sizeable N1 minority, some I2a2 and G1, and traces of R1b1b1, R1b1b2, G2a and J2.

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    Well, the Pashtuns are 50% R1a, but this doesn't tell the whole story about ancestry since they are ethnically the same as their neighbours who don't have as much R1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sorry to disappoint you but all* the ancient DNA tests done in Central Asia during the Scythian period (600 BCE - 300 AD) turned out to be exclusively R1a1. That's one of the best studied region in term of ancient Y-DNA. The older Andronovo samples were also R1a1, and so were the Tocharian ones from Xinjiang.
    * 8 out of 8 skeletons in Scythian kurgans tested in 3 separate studies.
    actually, following this clue, I wanted to see who are the indo-scythians who were the reason I decided later Turkish invasions couldnot have brought C3 so much south...
    The Indo-Scythians are commonly thought to have been a branch of Sakas (Scythians), who migrated from southern Siberia into Bactria, Sogdiana, Arachosia, Gandhara, Kashmir, Punjab, Gujarat, Maharashtra and Rajasthan, from the middle of the 2nd century BCE to the 4th century CE.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-scythians
    Sakastan or Sakaistan or Sakasthan (Sanskrit: शकस्तान) is a term indicating certain regions of Western Afghanistan, Southwestern Pakistan and Eastern Iran where the Scythians or Sakas settled around 100 BC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakastan

    I think you might be right here...
    indeed according to the position of Sakastan(Western Afghanistan, Southwestern Pakistan and Eastern Iran), Sakas tribe of Scythians who were Indo-Scythians seems to be R1a...
    It is clear that the Greek and Latin scholars cited here believed, all Sakai were Scythians, but not all Scythians were Sakai.[4] It seems likely that modern confusion about the identity of the Scythians is partly due to the Persians. According to Herodotus, the Persians called all Scythians by the name Sakas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas
    this explains why R1a doesnot show traces of shape alike to Scythia...
    they were just one of the tribes...

    Btw. Arabs had similar name for Slavs - Sakalibe

    however, this is area of Aria, so if they settled Aria only around 100BC than they couldnot have been Arians, which is contradictory from what we may expect based on haplogroup found in Brahmins

    btw. next to Aria is island of C3 that made a whole in the R1a settled area... but Scythians / Sakas have supposedly come from south Sibir and C has come from Mongolia to east and little part went deep on south and settled next to Aria



    actually this C came with Mongols of Genghis Khan




    Back to Scytians
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    They were surely mixed, but their elite seemed to be overwhelmingly R1a1 based on the remains of several tombs scattered over very different locations, separated in time by many centuries.
    If C3 did come only from the 4th century with the Turkic migrations, then the Scythians probably belong for the biggest part to R1a1 (I'd say over 60%, perhaps even 80%), with a sizeable N1 minority, some I2a2 and G1, and traces of R1b1b1, R1b1b2, G2a and J2.
    this also makes sense...

    e.g. G shows nice Scythia like spread...which cannot be seen with R1a since it came from further north anyway...


    according to mix of haplogroups that you assume, Scythians seems to have been more cultural issue than a tribe...
    I think original Scythians were G, while R1a were Sakas who were the largest Scythian tribe...
    but I am not sure about N. It might have come with Turks..

    Can it be that Scythians origin from Hittite who perhaps went to Caucasus after fall of their empire...?
    Are G haplogroups alike in Caucasus, Iran and in Asia minor?

    names do have some similarity
    (S)Hettite => Scythian

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post

    e.g. G shows nice Scythia like spread...which cannot be seen with R1a since it came from further north anyway...


    according to mix of haplogroups that you assume, Scythians seems to have been more cultural issue than a tribe...
    I think original Scythians were G, while R1a were Sakas who were the largest Scythian tribe...
    but I am not sure about N. It might have come with Turks..

    Can it be that Scythians origin from Hittite who perhaps went to Caucasus after fall of their empire...?
    Are G haplogroups alike in Caucasus, Iran and in Asia minor?

    names do have some similarity
    (S)Hettite => Scythian
    I do agree R1a is the forest I mean a huge distribution and we talk about a tribe in fact to find some R1a is usual but an elite is few always and G seems a good candidate for this elite as the original group of the Scythians a large population of R1a does not mean they are at the origin how many people speak English or Spanish over the world ? are they come from the first Anglo Saxon tribes or the first Iberians " latinazed" ?

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