sea peoples

[MOESAN]

Curiously, a son of Zebulun is called Sered, founder of family/tribe Seredites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebulun

Now, Seredites would logically be written down as "srd" in middle east manuscripts, which is a name under which we find Sherdana...

note that i do not imply Israelite origin of Sered...
what I say is that every Israelite tribe had myth of origin that defined its relation to other tribes and that Israelite manuscripts wrote those down.... while Sered people perhaps existed much before this is written down and same as other northerners who came with "sea people" majority of them lived outside of their Palestine colony.....

but it is just an idea of course...




Asher is probably same as ancient Assyrian/Syrian
now core of Asyrian empire matches in shape and location fairly well distribution of Kurds today

Sorani (central Kurdish folk) would be a continuation of Asher/Assyrian/Syrian tribal name...


Egyptian sources: in 12th century Hittite collapse and their lands (Hatti, Karkemisch, Syria...) are taken over by sea people....sea people are coalition of northerners from all lands....
Assyrian sources: in 12th century Hittite falls under Phrygians and Assyrians take over what is now called Syria (but Assyrians = Syrians in Greek sources)

now, this leads to conclusion: among "sea people" are Phrygians, but probably allied with Assyrians and some other people...or as Egyptians stated "northerners from all sides".

why "sea people"? perhaps many of them share Dagon worship religion....worship of genuine "sea people".... but is that really the case?

I take on very late: yoy give life again to a very heavy and indigest thread where I red a lot of interesting things and too a lot of "rubbish"
the multiple origins of the Sea People is for me well established (backed up?) -
surely the consequence of several important "domino" events pushing into play a lot of different stocks of tribes (different languages and origins, I-E and not) -
doing hypothesis is a first step in science so I see no matter here to conflict -
but hypothesis is not proof: I find you go very quickly to identification when you speak about 'ser', 'serd', 'serb', 'scord' (you identifying 'serbonis' and 'sharadan': some changes verified in some languages didn't take place in others ones... linguistic is not a shoolyard play - B and D appears to me well differentiated by ancient Egyptians scribes, as an example... for S(h)erdana and Sardinians (modern) I sea a possible link with Sardes, a region of Pontus (N-Anatolia), and for the Dan- one in W-Anatolia-S-Balkans
I don't find stupid the searching of old tribes names correlations (the proof is just above) but we have to be more cautious -
& remark: consider languages as a stuff folks can change at command is very surprising to me: at modern times we see how hard it is to learn new languages! only a "drown down" situation makes it possible or an inferior cultural political position and yet then it takes some centuries... (what the direction, Gauls and Franks didn't change language in 5 minuts...

 

[how yes no 3]

I take on very late: yoy give life again to a very heavy and indigest thread where I red a lot of interesting things and too a lot of "rubbish".
the multiple origins of the Sea People is for me well established (backed up?) -
surely the consequence of several important "domino" events pushing into play a lot of different stocks of tribes (different languages and origins, I-E and not) -
doing hypothesis is a first step in science so I see no matter here to conflict -
but hypothesis is not proof: I find you go very quickly to identification when you speak about 'ser', 'serd', 'serb', 'scord' (you identifying 'serbonis' and 'sharadan':

the way I state things is often in a strong form, but I thought it is always clear, that what I state is just a working hypothesys....it is not yet complete foolproof theory, but some parts of it are converging to it, while some parts are diverging (like tribal names Serd and Ser being of same root)

some changes verified in some languages didn't take place in others ones... linguistic is not a shoolyard play - B and D appears to me well differentiated by ancient Egyptians scribes, as an example... for S(h)erdana and Sardinians (modern) I sea a possible link with Sardes, a region of Pontus (N-Anatolia), and for the Dan- one in W-Anatolia-S-Balkans

yes, Sardes would be Phrygians and hence fits nice into Assyrian sources of who brought down Hittite...
Sardes being originally town of Sherdana would explain why Sherdana participate on side of Egypt in battle of Kadesh (Hittite being their primal enemies in their living space)

Sherdana - Serdi-Scordisci is clear linguistic link with same srd root...which indicates (not a proof of any kind) a possible continuity of tribal names

Sherdana - Serb tribal name link comes from knowledge that Sherdana left behind them a place name called Serbonis... but that is far fetched hypothesys.... it however makes sense in the context of locations...

if Sherdana live in Asia minor they may have been logical spread from Balkan along the Danube...identical to penetration of Serdi to Asia minor.... one other aspect is that Assyrian call "mushki" the Phrygians who defeated Hittite... "mushki" in serbian means "males" often used in sense "fellow males" as in team sport when one wants to cheer up own team players some people would say "ajmo mushki" or "come on mushki"

note also the ancient town of Serdica on Balkans being nowadays Sofia, that falls into Scordisci settled area... and mounatin Scardus named after Scordisci located nearby in south Balkans in area of west FYRM -north Albania- south-southwest Kosovo (which is officially at least in majority of countries still south most part of Serbia)

this also being area of spread of Vinca culture that shares worship of human-fish deities with later Assyrians....and a link from Karlovac rodoslov about Serbs also worshiping Dagion in their ancient history...

link of Scordisci to Serbs comes from Russian primary chronicle that puts proto-Serbs in Danubian Slavs living prior to Roman empire expansion exactly in places where Scordisci lived....

so I think that the hypothesis makes sense, as multiple indications support it and there is no indication that strongly opposes to it....

I don't find stupid the searching of old tribes names correlations (the proof is just above) but we have to be more cautious -
& remark: consider languages as a stuff folks can change at command is very surprising to me: at modern times we see how hard it is to learn new languages! only a "drown down" situation makes it possible or an inferior cultural political position and yet then it takes some centuries... (what the direction, Gauls and Franks didn't change language in 5 minuts...

languages do not change in 5 minutes but we speak here of events that spans thousands of years, so negation of language shift is not logical to assume...

the way I see it, Sherdana spread along Danube and Black sea and at some point also penetrated coasts of Asia minor...
Scordisci would be the ones who much later still live along Danube, sometimes as low as north Greece, sometimes as high as Bohemia......


what I however came to realize over span of time is that link Asher/Assyrians/Syrians/Seres/Serians/Zeruiani/Sorani (Zeruiani is name used for peoople whose state is so big that all Slavs origin from it according to Bavarian geographer, while Asher tribe seems to have links to Siberia, central Asia, Europe...) to Sherdana /Scordisci/Serbs is not natural... i think it is accidental ... though I still think that in wider term Sherdana were part of Serians/Zeruiani.... perhaps linked in ancient times by shared religion....

word Serb seems to be explainable with PIE root that has a meaning "end" and "turn" (...note that those two translations are related - "end" is also a place to "turn") which may indicate border lands and people who are essentially warriors, the ones who can "turn" the outcome of a battle, but also may "turn" sides (language shift)....e.g. word "Wend" (used for so called Lusatian Serbs who live in Germany and in wider sense for Slavic people in general) has same PIE meaning... if you look at recent history Wends(Sorbs or Serbya how they call themselves or Lusatian Serbs how they are also called) many of them has undergone language shift to German and became proper Germans with Slavic alike last names... Leibniz being a noteable example...

naming people in border lands using word whose meaning is "end" is still typical for Slavs (e.g. in Ukraine that comes from "kraj" = end, and on numerous border regions in Balkan carrying name "Krajina" and its people being called "Krajišnici")

De administrando imperio places Serbs prior to settlement on Balkan in area of white Serbia or Boika (which by given description fits Bohemia/Bavaria) and states that there they were called "white" (which might be an attempt of author to interpret Wend with Celtic language where similar word means 'white' or alternatively or simultanously is related to designation for west = white typical for iranians, nomad tribes of Euroasia and it seems for Slavs as well - as in white Croatia, or Belarus (white Russia) or Bela (white) Krajina - situated more or less in south Slovenia and being northwest most part of Croatian living space and west most part of former "military frontier" area (also known as "Krajina" - it was a buffer zone between Austro-Hungarian and Turkish empires and settled with Serbs and Croats who were protecting borders of Austro-Hungarian empire)


if Sherdana and Scordisci would belong to Serians/Zeruiani stock they would also be border people living in (south)west most area of influence.... which is comparable to Seredites of Zebulun tribe living south of Asher in what would be south(west) most border area of Serian/Syrian stock...

of course those time spans are so big that is impossible to equate proto-Slavs with Serians/Zeruiani, but is perhaps possible to link ancient origin of Slavs to a part of Serians/Zeruiani stock... I made a link above through Ishara (wife of Dagon)/Isther being essentially same goddess as Slavic Zorya (who serves Daž-bog ("bog" = god)....

alternatively, "srd" root might be linked to slavic word "sredina" which means in the middle... "kurd" in that sense might be about people living in the middle of Assyrian/Syrian/Serian/Zeruiani spread (see in post above maps that compare Assyrian and Kurd location)...this interpretation would indicate that origin of tribal name Kurd predates centum/satem split...

implication of applying "srd" = middle to Sherdana means that Serian stock did go further into west Europe (which makes sense as mention of white Syrian in Cappodokia seems linked to Gomer/Cimmerians and Gomer is considered forefather of Germanic people) and applying it to Seredites would be about mid of Israelite tribes....

note also that taking into account central position of Assyrian in PIE area, and relation of PIE vocabulary to Akkadian (Assyrian) we may think about German / Ker-man as centum version of Ser-man that is Serian people.....consider this in light of the fact that ancient DNA from Europe is quite different from modern one - indicating origin of modern European people somewhere in Asia... is there a better explanation than Assyrian/Sumero-Akkadian origin of PIE people...

 

[oriental]

Destruction

Main article: Bronze Age Collapse
The last Bronze Age king of Ugarit, Ammurapi, (circa 1215 to 1180 BC) was a contemporary of the Hittite king Suppiluliuma II. The exact dates of his reign are unknown. However, a letter^[4] by the king is preserved, in which Ammurapi stresses the seriousness of the crisis faced by many Near Eastern states from invasion by the advancing Sea Peoples in a dramatic response to a plea for assistance from the king of Alasiya. Ammurapi highlights the desperate situation Ugarit faced:

My father, behold, the enemy's ships came (here); my cities(?) were burned, and they did evil things in my country. Does not my father know that all my troops and chariots(?) are in the Land of Hatti, and all my ships are in the Land of Lukka?...Thus, the country is abandoned to itself. May my father know it: the seven ships of the enemy that came here inflicted much damage upon us.^[5]
​

Unfortunately for Ugarit, no help arrived, and the city was burned to the ground at the end of the Bronze Age. Its destruction levels contained Late Helladic IIIB ware, but no LH IIIC (see Mycenaean period). Therefore, the date of the destruction of Ugarit is important for the dating of the LH IIIC phase in mainland Greece. Since an Egyptian sword bearing the name of pharaoh Merneptah was found in the destruction levels, 1190 BC was taken as the date for the beginning of the LH IIIC. A cuneiform tablet found in 1986 shows that Ugarit was destroyed after the death of Merneptah (1203 BC). It is generally agreed that Ugarit had already been destroyed by the 8th year of Ramesses III (1178 BC). Recent radiocarbon work indicates a destruction between 1192 and 1190 BC.^[6]
Whether Ugarit was destroyed before or after Hattusa, the Hittite capital, is debated. The destruction is followed by a settlement hiatus. Many other Mediterranean cultures were deeply disordered just at the same time, apparently by invasions of the mysterious "Sea Peoples."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit

 

[oriental]

The Lukka lands are often mentioned in Hittite texts from the second millennium BC. It denotes a region in the southwestern part of Anatolia. The Lukka lands were never put under permanent Hittite control and were viewed as hostile by the Hittites.
It is commonly accepted that the Bronze Age toponym Lukka is cognate with classical Lycia. There is a contrast between the maximalist and the minimalist views with regard to the extent of the Lukka Lands. The maximalist view is upheld by Trevor Bryce, who discusses the occurrences of Lukka in Bronze Age texts.^[1]

From these texts we can conclude the Lukka, or Lukka lands, referred to a regions extending from the western end of Pamphylia, through Lycaonia, Pisidia and Lycia.
​

The minimalist view is upheld by Ilya Yakubovich, who concludes based on the analysis of textual evidence:^[2]

[W]e have positive philological arguments for the presence of Bronze Age Lukka settlements in classical Lycia, but not anywhere else in Asia Minor or beyond it.
​

Soldiers from the Lukka lands fought on the Hittite side in the famous Battle of Kadesh (ca. 1274 BC) against the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramesses II. A century later the Lukka had turned against the Hittites. The Hittite king Suppiluliuma II tried in vain to defeat the Lukka. They contributed to the collapse of the Hittite empire.
The Lukka is also known from ancient Egyptian texts. They were one of the tribes that constituted the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean in the twelfth century BC.^[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands

 

[oriental]

It seems Ugarit king had all his land forces in Hatti and in Lukka (southwest Anatolia) so the city was defenseless. It seems he was on the side of the Hittites who were destroyed by the Sea Peoples composed of varies Anatolian tribes.

 

[oriental]

Seres seem to describe the Kushans who occupied Sinkiang province in China during the Roman Empire period. The Sakas are similar people who were in Kashgar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

The Sakas, a Scythian people and the Kushans are today's Punjabis with turbans and of the Sikh religion.

 

[zanipolo]

the way I state things is often in a strong form, but I thought it is always clear, that what I state is just a working hypothesys....it is not yet complete foolproof theory, but some parts of it are converging to it, while some parts are diverging (like tribal names Serd and Ser being of same root)


yes, Sardes would be Phrygians and hence fits nice into Assyrian sources of who brought down Hittite...
Sardes being originally town of Sherdana would explain why Sherdana participate on side of Egypt in battle of Kadesh (Hittite being their primal enemies in their living space)

Sherdana - Serdi-Scordisci is clear linguistic link with same srd root...which indicates (not a proof of any kind) a possible continuity of tribal names

Serdi and Scordisci are both celtic tribes in the balkans, they have nothing to do with Ser. The triballi became the Serbs after these celtic tribes destroyed the Triballi.
Serdi resided in modern day Bulgaria - basically the capital area of Sofia and the Scordisci where NW of them.

The medieval nobility of Serbs always took the triballi as their origins

Where are you leading your comments to?

 

[how yes no 3]

Where are you leading your comments to?

my comments are just aloud thinking....

they seem to lead to Serians being in ancient past a tribal name used by most of today IE stock, and not just for ancestors of Serbs as I have originally suspected 2-3 years ago...

sea people may be Phrygians plus Assyrians and some other....

 

[christianguy]

I came across a page discussing the link between the Shardana / Sheridan name while researching a subject for bible study. Apparently they are working on a major tribe of dan revival over there! princeofdan dot org

 

[Alan]

You do realize that Germiyan has no meaning in Turkish? In Parthian and Sassanid times the region around Kirkuk and Diyala was called Garmakan what means warm land. This land is nowadays called Germiyan by Kurds.

The word Germiyan derives from Kurdish. Germ means warm in Kurdish and Germiyan means warm place. It has absolutely zero to do with Cimmerians who were called Gamiri.

Seljuks simply adopted this name from Iranians.

 

[Sile]

You do realize that Germiyan has no meaning in Turkish? In Parthian and Sassanid times the region around Kirkuk and Diyala was called Garmakan what means warm land. This land is nowadays called Germiyan by Kurds.

The word Germiyan derives from Kurdish. Germ means warm in Kurdish and Germiyan means warm place. It has absolutely zero to do with Cimmerians who were called Gamiri.

Seljuks simply adopted this name from Iranians.

Germiyan is the "modern" term for the ancient area of Lukka .........home of Lycians.......who where eventually conquered by Carians
Where did the Carians come from?

 

[Alan]

Germiyan is the "modern" term for the ancient area of Lukka .........home of Lycians.......who where eventually conquered by Carians
Where did the Carians come from?

I don't know about Lycians but what I know is that Germiyan means warm place in Kurdish and Kirkuk is called Germiyan in Kurdish language.


germ/garm simply means warm. This is Germiyan https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurdistan4all/3818965100/

 

[Pax Augusta]

because turks are turkify anatolians. Anatolians spoke indo european they have still loan word from. anatolian languages.

How much of Turks are ethnic Turks?

 

[Yetos]

Kurds are iranian people , they not Anatolian Cimmerians and Hurians just another one ancestor of Anatolian people. Dont forget Cimmerians and Hurrians stayed Anatolia!!!!

Germiyani is Anatolian (Germiyan beylik-Anatolian word)

i know men he blame to Kurd name delivered from Qrt mean in assyrian language brave!Look where area the kurdish people live only assyrians live those area

Kurds or Καρδουχοι etc are mentioned in Alexander's the Great campain as mountain Aryans, Areioi = archers from Homeric Aορ Αορτη arrow
they are also mentioned to Medeia and Jason that spoke not Iranian IndoIranian Pharsi etc but Aryan (IranoGeorgian) Georgian are also named as GURciD by Pontic Greeks

By Considering the Greco-Aryan IE Theory KURD means Dancer, ΚΟΥΡΗΤΕΣ (Horon) and indeed kurds share round dances that can be found only in Balkans
by considering Summerian means mountain people KUR= MOUNTAIN in Summerian a word exist also in Greek KΟΡΥΦΗ

About Assyrians?
ZAGROS and ΖΑΓΡΑΙΟΣ ΖΕΥΣ is not co-incidence,
Medea from Kolchis found Αρειοι that spoke the same Language in North of the lake,
besides Germ is IE word (Greek Therm) Germidava is an ancient city,
Germ also ment Warm in ancient Thracian and Phrygians were Thracians, Ikonio (Konya) was build by Zeus-Bakchos Thracians
Germ Warm Therm is the same,

in fact in between Kurds Laz Georgids is possible (there are some chances) to be homeland of all IE languages
just think Kurdish anahitta (female) and Homeric Anax (male)

 

[Yetos]

my comments are just aloud thinking....

they seem to lead to Serians being in ancient past a tribal name used by most of today IE stock, and not just for ancestors of Serbs as I have originally suspected 2-3 years ago...

sea people may be Phrygians plus Assyrians and some other....

Phrygians were Thracians from Today areas among Makedonia Bardarska Albania and maybe South Serbia, named as Bryges by Makedonians (Makedonian dialect use V instead of Attic Ph Βρεαρ-Φρεαρ water spring, Βερενικη-Φερενικη veronica, Κεβαλη-KΕφαλη glava Head)
Phrygians moved to minor Asia after Troyan war, and by the times of karamos existed still in Balkans, Bryges were mountain inland people, not sea people, from continental balkans to continental minor Asia,
we can say that their devastation to minor Asia was chain reaction of Sea peoples to Italy.

there is also a historical fact at 1100 Assyrians vs Muski (Myssians Μυσσοι) but assyrians use that word for Phrygians also
besides
Brygians build 3 cities Tyana Gordium and Dascylium next to Myssians
it is not coincindence that Myssians share same name with Moessians and Dacians with Dascylium
they even reach Euphratis river but never in Sea.

they may cause the vacuum of the last Etruscans to Italy, or they just enter to fill the void

 

[oriental]

Here are some illustrations of their ships:

http://lakodaemon.co.uk/the-ships-of-the-sea-peoples-part-2/

and some information found on the internet:

http://www.american-buddha.com/bible.seapeopleshellpeczynski1.htm

 

[Sile]

%5-4 population real turk as a central Anatolian i can say, my grand mother from eastern Anatolia(she is native eastern) . Her family tortured by kurds after they emigrate central Anatolia.

there is 0% of real Turk in Anatolia before 1500 years ago............I mean zero percent, Nil

 

[howyesno]

Sherdana - along sea-side.. on west shores of Asia minor where ancient town of Sardis was, along shores of Mediteranean sea, especially on Cyprus as a good port island for sea attacks on Egypt, on middle east (it was also a wave of settlers that used land) and on the land where Scordisci lived (nowaday Serb lands)...

indeed it could be that the name of Scordisci is of same origin as the name Sherdana with common root shrd..
the tribe that went from the teritory of Scordisci to neighbouring Thrace was known there as Serdi meaning that Scordisci may indeed have been celticized form of Serdi/Sherdana

 

[Jovialis]

Sherdana - along sea-side.. on west shores of Asia minor where ancient town of Sardis was, along shores of Mediteranean sea, especially on Cyprus as a good port island for sea attacks on Egypt, on middle east (it was also a wave of settlers that used land) and on the land where Scordisci lived (nowaday Serb lands)...
indeed it could be that the name of Scordisci is of same origin as the name Sherdana with common root shrd..
the tribe that went from the teritory of Scordisci to neighbouring Thrace was known there as Serdi meaning that Scordisci may indeed have been celticized form of Serdi/Sherdana

Actually, many scholars attribute them to the Sardinians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Hypotheses_about_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

 

[howyesno]

Actually, many scholars attribute them to the Sardinians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Hypotheses_about_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

yes, because SRD root in name and because Sardinia is an island in Mediteranean...
J2b1 better explains order of conquest that included landlocked lands such as Hatti kingdom..
its too far away from Sardinia... and far from Mediteranean sea..

5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carchemish


movement of people with woman, children, oxes doesnot really fit well with image of ship only attack....
so I think it was a mass wave of ground invasion accompanied by ships...
thus it went along coastlines...

I think they went to Black sea coast and from there on Hatti state and continued by land to Syria.....
through the lands of nowadays Kurds

J2b1 has that route..