sea peoples

[how yes no 2]

The Sea Peoples is the term used for a confederacy of seafaring raiders of the second millennium BC who sailed into the eastern Mediterranean, caused political unrest, and attempted to enter or control Egyptian territory during the late 19th dynasty and especially during Year 8 of Ramesses III of the 20th Dynasty.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

they brought Hittite empire down...

Civil war and rivalling claims to the throne, combined with the external threat of the Sea Peoples weakened the Hittites and by 1160 BC, the Empire had collapsed. "Neo-Hittite" post-Empire states, petty kingdoms under Assyrian rule, may have lingered on until ca. 700 BC, and the Bronze Age Hittite and Luwian dialects evolved into the sparsely attested Lydian, Lycian and Carian languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Reign of Ramesses II

Records or possible records of sea peoples generally or in particular date to two campaigns of Ramesses II, a pharaoh of the militant 19th Dynasty: operations in or near the delta in Year 2 of his reign and the major confrontation with the Hittite Empire and allies at the Battle of Kadesh in his Year 5. The dates of this long-lived pharaoh's reign are not known for certain, but they must have comprised nearly all of the first half of the 13th century BC.[14]
In his Second Year, an attack of the Sherden, or Shardana, on the Nile Delta was repulsed and defeated by Ramesses, who captured some of the pirates. The event is recorded on Tanis Stele II.[15] An inscription by Ramesses II on the stela from Tanis which recorded the Sherden raider's raid and subsequent capture speaks of the continuous threat they posed to Egypt's Mediterranean coasts:
"the unruly Sherden whom no one had ever known how to combat, they came boldly sailing in their warships from the midst of the sea, none being able to withstand them."[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

the ends of several civilizations around 1175 BC have instigated a theory that the Sea Peoples may have caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mitanni kingdoms. The American Hittitologist, Gary Beckman, writes on page 23 of Akkadica 120 (2000):[28]
A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. [ie: cut down]"
Ramesses' comments about the scale of the Sea Peoples' onslaught in the eastern Mediterranean are confirmed by the destruction of the states of Hatti, Ugarit, Ashkelon and Hazor around this time. As the Hittitologist Trevor Bryce observes:[29]
It should be stressed that the invasions were not merely military operations, but involved the movements of large populations, by land and sea, seeking new lands to settle.
This situation is confirmed by the Medinet Habu temple reliefs of Ramesses III which show that:[29]
the Peleset and Tjekker warriors who fought in the land battle [against Ramesses III] are accompanied in the reliefs by women and children loaded in ox-carts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

ok, now we know historical backgroud, let's try to analyse situation

1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack

2) people were skilled in making wars

3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea

4) Sirbonis bog in Egypt is named after them presumably after Sherden

5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carchemish

Carchemish (called Europus or Εὔρωπος by the Greco-Romans) was an important ancient city of the Mitanni, Hittite and Neo Assyrian Empires, now on the frontier between Turkey and Syria

movement of people with woman, children, oxes doesnot really fit well with image of ship only attack....
so I think it was a mass wave of ground invasion accompanied by ships...
thus it went along coastlines...

we have already established that G2a spread matches Hittite empire



what you can notice is that G2a is stripped off along coastlines...that is G2a has much less frequencies in lines going next to seas starting from Istanbul area (that was never part of Hittite state) straight towards east next to coast line... that shows where sea people came from...from Balkans

it is in fact ingenious military tactics... going along coastlines supported with ships... they went along coast of Black sea which devastated Hatti province of Hittite empire... than they wanted to proceed along coastline so they had to meet their fleet support in Mediteranean sea, so they made a turn towards south immediately on passage from Asia minor to Asia and than near Carchemish
they meet their fleet. Since they needed to provide solid bases for their fleet so they went back into Asia minor towards west this time along south seacoast conquering Arzawa (again Arzawa is the area where G2a is stripped off along coast)... after establishing basis for further advancement, they continued along coasts of Syria towards Egypt..

this was massive settllement wave, so it must have influenced population structure and must have left genetic trail...

thus we look for haplogroup(s) (otherwise foreign to Asia) in Asia that goes straight throw Asia minor along coastline, than turns to south towards Syria..
looking at lineages of Asia such a direction of spread has obviously haplogroup I



in fact, haplogroup I shows us that being akin to ruling coastlines sea people also continued towards Caspian sea and made a big base there as well, and continued further..

today hotspots of haplogroup I in Asia minor and Asia are related to Zazas (Dimilis/Daylami) in Asia minor... and in area called Daylami south of Caspian lake (area north of Teheran)..

Linguistic studies shows that the Zazas may have immigrated to their modern-day homeland from the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Some Zazas use the word Dimli (Daylami) to describe their ethnic identity. The word Dimli (Daylami) also describes a region of Gilan Province in today’s Iran. Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylam towards the west. Today, Iranian languages are still spoken in southern regions of Caspian Sea (also called the Caspian languages), including Sangsarī, Māzandarānī, Tātī (Herzendī), Semnānī, Tāleshī, and they are grammatically and lexically very close to Zazaki; this supports the argument that Zazas immigrated to eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea.[8] Zazas also live in a region close to the Kurds, who are also another Iranic ethnic group. But, historic sources such as the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn, places the Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland in the headwaters of the Tigris[citation needed], as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated to the Caspian sea and not the other way around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazas

I think tribal name Dalmatae in Balkan (where is highest frequency of haplogrpoup I2a2) and word Daylamites (islands of I in north Iran and Asia minor) have same root, denote same people...

Dalmatae/Dalmatinci were always sea related people, anyone in west Balkans can tell you so..

The Zazaki language shows similarities with (Hewrami or Gorani), Shabaki and Bajelani. Gorani, Bajelani, and Shabaki languages are spoken around Iran-Iraq border; however, it is believed that they are also immigrated from Northern Iran to their present homelands. These languages are sometimes put together in the Zaza-Gorani language group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language

Here I wonder whether words Shabaki and Srbi have common origin... note that Gorani is common tribal name amongst Slavic people - it means simply people living in hills....e.g. there is today a ethnic group Gorani in Kosovo..they are of Slavic origin but has accepted islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people


in fact, it we follow further spread of I in the Asia we get to Sarbans who are now one of the Pashtun tribes... however, unlike other Pastuns they seems to carry lot of I haplogroup
which is illustrated by observing perfect match between spread of I haplogroup and Sarbans




we can see that in this part tribal name Sarbans is preserved
this of course expains well why some of "sea people" were known as Sherden, why Sirbonis bog is named after "sea people"....

Haplogroup I however continues further, next stop is Sogdiana


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdiana


last stop is believe it or not in what is now north-west China


who were those people?

Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Pliny also reports a curious description of the Seres made by an embassy from Taprobane to Emperor Claudius, suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin, such as the Tocharians:
"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; .." (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Serica, the land of the Seres, was the name by which the Greco-Romans referred to a country in Central Asia.
Ancient Mediterranean knowledge of this nation was indistinct and distorted by fables and myths. Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder present more precise descriptions. Serica was described by Ptolemy as bordering "Scythia beyond the Imaum mountains (Tian Shan)" on the West, "Terra Incognita" to the North-East, the "Sinae" or Chinese to the East and "India" to the South. This would correspond with modern Xinjiang province in North-Western China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

"wide arc from China to India"known as Seres is again clearly visible in distribution of I haplogroup connecting in arc position of Sarbans, Sogdiana, and Serica proper..

looking forward to hear your opinion about this theory of who were "sea peoples"

[Sprinkles]

Gorani would refer to Gore, which is up, and ani, which would mean a state of existence. This would indicate mountain people, which is well claimed from the geography. I do not believe this has any reference to Iran and as most of your speculation seems irreconcilable. It was well known that Illyrians (Dalmatae, Luburni, etc) were sea-waring people and looted Roman ships for hundreds of years. The design of Roman sea vessels was adopted from the Luburni. I also remember reading the Greeks indicating the Romans saved the world from the Illyrians.


I read some of your reasoning and it omits any geographic limitation to population changes through migration. You seem to be of the belief that migrations across thousands of miles happened rapidly, and i would not dispute that they didn't - given the texture of a given area wrt geography and climate. On the other hand, when you're discussing the Balkans, and in general Dalmatia, Hercegovina, and Bosna, which are mountainous regions, you understand why the theory of easy migration, killing of indigenous people, and replication falls apart.

If you track the frequency of E-V13, you notice the same avoidance of it in areas that lack R1b in the Balkans. E-V13 tracks from Albania, through Serbia, and up into Eastern Europe avoiding most of Bosna and Coastal Dalmatia. Why? Because the terrain is unsuitable to conquer. Almost all of the land covering Bosna and Dalmatia is mountainous. Geographic barriers are known in evolutionary terms to provide reproductive isolation, and this should be the first warning sign that your migratory theories are wrong.

This is also why Ghenghis Khan was stopped around the Dalmatian Coast of Klis and never advanced further. But, in an anecdotal claim, there claimed to be horses left over from Khan's armies in Croatian lands that were much shorter and faster than indigenous horses and were of different color.

[how yes no 2]

Gorani would refer to Gore, which is up, and ani, which would mean a state of existence. This would indicate mountain people, which is well claimed from the geography.

that is what I said or wanted to say
Gorani = people living in mountains (I said hills which is perhaps wrong)
Gora = mountain in Slavic, derived from Gore = up

I do not believe this has any reference to Iran and as most of your speculation seems irreconcilable.

that about Gorani/Shabaki as closest languages to Zazaki was an association that I had while reading ... but you are right it is not strong point...

It was well known that Illyrians (Dalmatae, Luburni, etc) were sea-waring people and looted Roman ships for hundreds of years. The design of Roman sea vessels was adopted from the Luburni. I also remember reading the Greeks indicating the Romans saved the world from the Illyrians.

could Zazaki language have traces of Illyrian language?

there are only few preserved Illyrian words:
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm
llyrian
alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym), barba- (a swamp)
bra' (brother! (vocative)), brisa (husks of grapes). cleves- (famous),
lugo- (a pool), mag- (great),
metu- (between), oseriates (lakes),
plo- (strong, powerful), rinos (clouds), sybina (a spear),
tertigio (a merchant) trege" (a market), teuta- (people, a tribe),
ves- (kind, good)

Serbo-Croatian
liti(to flow), bara (bog, pond, morras),
brat (brother), cuven (famous),
medju/izmedju (between), jezero (lake, in russiian nad Ukrainian closer match - ozero), runo (cloud like wool, fleece), trgovac (merchant), trg (market)

"ves"(kind, good) is one of the words above that have no clear Serbo-Croatian/Slavic counterpart (closest would be veseo = cheerful, and vest = good skilled, crafty)

illyrian ves- (kind, good)

English fine => Zazaki - weş Kurmanji/Sorani - xweş Pashto - ʂa/xa Balochi - wash/ hosh Mazandarani -xaar Persian - xosh Middle Persian -dârmag Parthian - Old Persian - Avestan -srîra Ossetic - xorz/dzæbæx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templat...ges_word_table

I read some of your reasoning and it omits any geographic limitation to population changes through migration. You seem to be of the belief that migrations across thousands of miles happened rapidly, and i would not dispute that they didn't - given the texture of a given area wrt geography and climate. On the other hand, when you're discussing the Balkans, and in general Dalmatia, Hercegovina, and Bosna, which are mountainous regions, you understand why the theory of easy migration, killing of indigenous people, and replication falls apart.

in fact, we do not know how rapidly did spread to central and east Asia happen...

Hm, look at the path of conquer of Alexandar Macedonian in few years



through midst of Asia minor hills, while "sea people" went along coastline...
after Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia, here he goes again in hills...

and if you look on pictures bellow at "sea people", they actually do follow relief a lot- look at Sarbans they spread in lower part of Afganistan up to the hills, than also to Sogdiana following plains, and Serica is plain...
so, when they do not follow sea-coast, they follow relief...

don't be confused with south spread of haplogroup I in area Kerman/Germania of Persia- I think that is much older source haplogroup I, that is ancient Germania....

If you track the frequency of E-V13, you notice the same avoidance of it in areas that lack R1b in the Balkans. E-V13 tracks from Albania, through Serbia, and up into Eastern Europe avoiding most of Bosna and Coastal Dalmatia. Why? Because the terrain is unsuitable to conquer. Almost all of the land covering Bosna and Dalmatia is mountainous. Geographic barriers are known in evolutionary terms to provide reproductive isolation, and this should be the first warning sign that your migratory theories are wrong.

I understand that reasoning and agree with it, but examples are bad:
E-V13 have large variance in midst of Dalmatia which means it was once (when?) much more dominant there...



R1b in Balkans is again wrong example since there is more than twice more in mountains of Montenegro (9.4%) than in Serbia (4.5%)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

[LeBrok]

ves is close to vesir in arabic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizier

Vizier, has connotation close to vision?
What about german weiss, to know. A visionary leader?
Indoeuropean roots, left in areas where Hittites or others went through?

[how yes no 2]

spread of Zazaki language in Asia minor is exactly matching the place where corridor connecting 2 sea coasts is made... strategically extremely important => larger population was settled there...

[how yes no 2]

ves is close to vesir in arabic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizier

Vizier, has connotation close to vision?
What about german weiss, to know. A visionary leader?
Indoeuropean roots, left in areas where Hittites or others went through?

Hittities were IE speaking


weiss (to know) and vision are related words, to see = to know
PIE *weid- to see, to find, to know

Vezir has different origin - to help someone... which in fact share similarities with Ves... cause people who help others are good...

The word entered into English in 1562, from the Turkish vezir ("counsellor"), and from the Arabic wazir ("viceroy"), āzara ("to help"), and the root wzr ("to help somebody").[2][9] or from Persian and Iranian languages,[10] The Middle Persian ancestor of this word in Pahlavi is vicir ("a legal document" or "decision"),[9] which in turn originated from Avestan vichira, meaning decreer or arbitrator.[11] Linguistically, it is related to the Latin word vicarius.

point was that Ves is exactly the same word with exactly the same meaning in Illyrian and Zazaki/Sorani while it is different in most iranian languages...

[Sprinkles]

that is what I said or wanted to say
that about Gorani/Shabaki as closest languages to Zazaki was an association that I had while reading ... but you are right it is not strong point...

Your inferences are very weak and borderline delusional.

could Zazaki language have traces of Illyrian language?

there are only few preserved Illyrian words:
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm
llyrian
alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym), barba- (a swamp)
bra' (brother! (vocative)), brisa (husks of grapes). cleves- (famous),
lugo- (a pool), mag- (great),
metu- (between), oseriates (lakes),
plo- (strong, powerful), rinos (clouds), sybina (a spear),
tertigio (a merchant) trege" (a market), teuta- (people, a tribe),
ves- (kind, good)

Serbo-Croatian
liti(to flow), bara (bog, pond, morras),
brat (brother), cuven (famous),
medju/izmedju (between), jezero (lake, in russiian nad Ukrainian closer match - ozero), runo (cloud like wool, fleece), trgovac (merchant), trg (market)

"ves"(kind, good) is one of the words above that have no clear Serbo-Croatian/Slavic counterpart (closest would be veseo = cheerful, and vest = good skilled, crafty)

illyrian ves- (kind, good)

English fine => Zazaki - weş Kurmanji/Sorani - xweş Pashto - ʂa/xa Balochi - wash/ hosh Mazandarani -xaar Persian - xosh Middle Persian -dârmag Parthian - Old Persian - Avestan -srîra Ossetic - xorz/dzæbæx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templat...ges_word_table

You can pretty much take any word, compare it to any language, and find a similarity. No one does it, because it's idiotic.

in fact, we do not know how rapidly did spread to central and east Asia happen...

Hm, look at the path of conquer of Alexandar Macedonian in few years



through midst of Asia minor hills, while "sea people" went along coastline...
after Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia, here he goes again in hills...

and if you look on pictures bellow at "sea people", they actually do follow relief a lot- look at Sarbans they spread in lower part of Afganistan up to the hills, than also to Sogdiana following plains, and Serica is plain...
so, when they do not follow sea-coast, they follow relief...

Yeah, your map shows Alexander conquered through Plains and along river pathways. What is also shows is that there is a clear lineage of haplogroup I2a2 footprint in Western Asia, through Alexander. And, not the other way around. I also want to know the genetic footprint his army left on the area. It's nice to talk about empires, but those empires rarely have a large genetic footprint on the totality of the conquered territories. The empire crumbled, the armies left, the indigenous people destroyed them.

Now what you're talking about are migrations of people into the Balkans through mountains (from the east) that have no access points other than across the mountains.

1) Basic genetics teaches us that geographic barriers are hot spots for genetic isolation.
2) In this thread you have shown a clear inference for the existence of haplogroup I2a2 in western Asia.
3) You have no proof of any language associations creating a genetic link.
4) Your evidence is weak, non-existent, and borderline delusional.

don't be confused with south spread of haplogroup I in area Kerman/Germania of Persia- I think that is much older source haplogroup I, that is ancient Germania....

That's nice, you have no evidence of it.

I understand that reasoning and agree with it, but examples are bad:
E-V13 have large variance in midst of Dalmatia which means it was once (when?) much more dominant there...

Too bad variance depends on accuracy of genetic data(which is very limited) and plotting of microsattelites(which causes error). You will find variance anywhere there is a low frequency and a higher frequency elsewhere. I do not believe E-V13 was ever prominent in Dalmatia, nor Hercegovina, nor Bosna. The fact that it exists is a symptom of gene flow, and the fact that it exists in lower levels than in Serbia, Greece, or Hungaria - is a symptom of geographic isolation.

You should really understand geography before you try to argue genetics.

R1b in Balkans is again wrong example since there is more than twice more in mountains of Montenegro (9.4%) than in Serbia (4.5%)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

[/quote]
1) Montenegro is closer to Albania, which is also closer to the end of the Dinaric Alps than Hercegovina.
2) We do not know the accuracy of those tests, we know that R1b is found in the Dinaric Alps at a less of a percent than in the rest of Europe.
3) You make shit up all day.
4) The % for Serbia is 7% on Eupedia.
5) The percent for Herceg Bosna is 4%.
6) The percent for Croatia is 8% (which includes Slavonia which is not on the Dinaric Alps).
7) E-V13 is lower in Dalmatia/B&H / because of geography.
8) R1b is lower in Dalmatia/B&H because of geography.

[how yes no 2]

Your inferences are very weak and borderline delusional.

sorry, but your evaluation has not much value to me, since you need yet to prove in my eyes that you have any knowledge that stretches further from what you read from Maciamo's posts...

You can pretty much take any word, compare it to any language, and find a similarity. No one does it, because it's idiotic.

nope you are not right... if you have a match in both form and meaning of the word, than you are likely to have common origin of the word.. Are you aware how was common proto-indo-european language discovered and partially reconstructed? Do you think it was always known and everyone read it on wikipedia, or you are capable to realize that they came up with theory by comparing something - words perhaps? I guess according to your line of thought, all work on reconstructing PIE language was just idiotic...

Yeah, your map shows Alexander conquered through Plains and along river pathways.

read my text, I said he crossed through middle of Asia minor instead of sticking to coast, and also after Syria, Egypt, and Iraq, he did quite a lot walk around with army through iranian highlands...

What is also shows is that there is a clear lineage of haplogroup I2a2 footprint in Western Asia, through Alexander.

if what I claim was delusional, than this claim is too. Point is that we do not know how haplogroup I made that path and not even in which direction was movement... I made a theory about one possible reason for such a spread....
another possibility would be spread with Alexander Macedonian,third would be that it in fact spread from Persia to all directions..
we just do not know... we can make theories like I did and find arguments to support our theories, as I tried to do. But you can't bluntly without argument say that any theory different than yours is delusional. It's kids level of reasoning based on phrase "cause I say so"...

And, not the other way around. I also want to know the genetic footprint his army left on the area. It's nice to talk about empires, but those empires rarely have a large genetic footprint on the totality of the conquered territories. The empire crumbled, the armies left, the indigenous people destroyed them.

short lasting conquers do not leave major imprint... but if settlement wave is present, than they will leave genetic trace...
did Alexandar Macedonian massively settle people from Balkan or just had army units on strategic places?
"sea people" were settlement wave as written in ancient Egyptian books...
we do not know how long did "sea people" conquest last in Asia...historic records from Egypt tells us only about period in which Egypt was target...

1) Basic genetics teaches us that geographic barriers are hot spots for genetic isolation.

agreed, which coupled with extreme hotspot of E-V13 in Dalmatia points out that E-V13 might have been in Dalmatia before I2a2.. I can understand that that is not what you want to hear, but that is what variance much larger than anywhere in Balkans (including places with very large frequencies) tells me about it...

2) In this thread you have shown a clear inference for the existence of haplogroup I2a2 in western Asia.

I don't know whether it is I2a2... It is one of I haplogroups.. In the studies based on which plots are made, separating subtypes of I was not done...
http://sites.google.com/site/theline...sia/references

3) You have no proof of any language associations creating a genetic link.

no, but I don't speak of any language associations giving genetic link. I set theory that tribal names are often being preserved together with genetics...... and in addition I wonder on several examples whether match in linguistics and common origin of words can indicate common genetic origin...

4) Your evidence is weak, non-existent, and borderline delusional.
That's nice, you have no evidence of it.

hello, it's a theory..like almost anything in science is just a theory... it's not mainstream theory..it is my current (it may change) theory about origin of haplogroup I in Asia... It looks to me as you are infinetly bothered with idea that tribes with tribal names matching the ones of Serbs and Dalmatines were together in massive military conquest while Croats appeared on Balkans only like 2000 years later? Is that why you so strongly object my theory, up to the point that you give me diagnoses of delusional and idiotic? do your own research, make your own theories, find arguments to attack theories you can't live with...

Too bad variance depends on accuracy of genetic data(which is very limited) and plotting of microsattelites(which causes error).

right, and the ones who make variance plots are fools...
here is how variance showed that certain subgroup of R1b came to Europe from Asia minor... frequencies would suggest that it was always in west Europe...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed
look at frequencies and look variance...variance was talking about distant past...

so, no, variance is not something you can discard as irrelevant...just because it does not fit your biased attitudes...

You will find variance anywhere there is a low frequency and a higher frequency elsewhere.

that says only one thing: people tend to move quite a lot during long time periods of few thousand years....

I do not believe E-V13 was ever prominent in Dalmatia, nor Hercegovina, nor Bosna. The fact that it exists is a symptom of gene flow, and the fact that it exists in lower levels than in Serbia, Greece, or Hungaria - is a symptom of geographic isolation.

nope, that also might be because I2a2 Illyrians did kind of ethnical cleansing when they settled, or because perhaps E-V13 Illyricum was emptied by Goths.... or because E-V13 tribes decided one day few thousand years ago to move south.... there are many ways to explain it... you sticked to one possible explanation and made a holy truth from it...
I find it more likely that pattern of E-V13 spread in fact coincides with retreating of east Roman empire due to attacks of barbarians...

You should really understand geography before you try to argue genetics.

No, you should, spread of tribes that I propose as "sea people" in Asia follows plains and lower regions... look at southwest Afganistan (Sarbans) and folllow plain to Sogdiana and Serica ...that talks about settlement wave in area that was already settled.... "wide arc from China to India" known as Seres is again clearly visible in relief as lower lands and in distribution of I haplogroup connecting in arc position of Sarbans, Sogdiana, and Serica proper..

1) Montenegro is closer to Albania, which is also closer to the end of the Dinaric Alps than Hercegovina.
2) We do not know the accuracy of those tests

I am speaking of testing done in Serbia and in Montenegro...
first one on larger sample
and btw. also first test about Serbs or Serbia that was not done by Croatian scientists...

, we know that R1b is found in the Dinaric Alps at a less of a percent than in the rest of Europe.

so? we also know there are R1b holes wherever Ostrogoths massively settled...

3) You make shit up all day.
4) The % for Serbia is 7% on Eupedia.
5) The percent for Herceg Bosna is 4%.
6) The percent for Croatia is 8% (which includes Slavonia which is not on the Dinaric Alps).

??? mind your language...
I did put the reference bellow the numbers for R1b in Serbia and Montenegro... if you have no access rights to article you can access supplementary info and calculate yourself percentages... or ask someone who can access article (e.g Maciamo) to find it there for you... I cannot be blamed for you not having subscription to journals that publish results of genetic research...
btw. donot quote Eupedia, quote papers...
Eupedia states for Serbs 7% T completely delusional data based on wrong interpretation of lazyness of croatian scientist to figure out which subgroups of K those samples belonged to... it was not R1a and not R1b so they made it K as K is parent for L, M, N, O, P, Q, R,S,T... and this forged 7% of K was further forged by someone on Eupedia to 7% T...

so, no, I do not trust any data presented on Eupedia web site... it is often about Maciamo's theories more than about reality...

Btw. Eupedia also states for Croatia forged 42% of I2a2 - obtained from work of croatian "scientists" who came up with 42% by taking around half samples from 3 scarcely populated islands in south Croatia (where all together like 40 thousand people live and where I2a2 is over 55%) together with half of samples from the rest of Croatia (where more than 4 milion people live)

http://cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5200992a.html

not to talk about sampling hotspots of I2a2 also for the rest making mix of samples without telling which number of samples came from which town... but out of few locations included were: Dubrovnik as town close to the 3 islands and hotspot in Hercegovina, and Zagreb which is an island of I2a2 in north Croatia (without Zagreb I2a2 is there close to zero) due to lot of migration from south areas to capital, and by including Osijek that is near border with Serbia and follows spread trends present there...

btw. all the 3 islands in south Croatia (Hvar, Korcula , Brac) with over 55% I2a2 were part of Pagania
and according to only historic source talking about origin of people from Pagania, they were Serbs and not Croats...

Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus stresses that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized." [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania

7) E-V13 is lower in Dalmatia/B&H / because of geography.
8) R1b is lower in Dalmatia/B&H because of geography.

why? because you say so? can you please stop using your (or someone else ) claims as absolute truths and try to support them with some argument?
you assume E-V13 arrived when area was settled by I2a2 and others... and thus it didnot enter mountains... but I ask you what is the reason to assume so when variance of E-V13 peaks in Dalmatia, and variance of I2a2 in Ukraine and Slovenia? again, why are you so sure I2a2 was there before E-V13? it's a theory... it may or may not be correct... you can say I haplogroup in Europe is palaeolithic and E-V13 is not... well, we can assume that, but we do not really know that... we don't know when I2a2 arrived to Europe and we do not know where in Europe it was... there are theories about that, but just theories... ok?

[how yes no 2]

we can see same tribal name among Sarmatians

The Serboi were a tribe dwelling on the European steppe. Serboi is the Greek version of their name. The Serbi are mentioned among the peoples living adjacent to the Sea of Azov (then known as Lake Moeotis) in the first century AD by Pliny the Elder.[1] In the next century the geographer Ptolemy placed them a little further east in the land of Sarmatia Asiatica, to the west of the Volga (then known as the River Rha).[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi



in fact, Sarmatian Siraci seems to have been the same people...

The Siraces (Greek: Sirakoi, Latin: Siraci, also Siraceni and Seraci[1]) were a hellenized Sarmatian tribe that inhabited Sarmatia Asiatica; the coast of Achardeus at the Black Sea south of the Caucasus mountains, Siracena[1] is mentioned by Tacitus as one of their settlements. They were said to be relatively small nation but with great moral.[2] They were neighbours to the later enemy tribe of Aorsi.
They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]
In 310-309 BC their king Aripharnes took part in the succession war of the Bosporan Kingdom and lost at a battle on the Thates (a tributary of the Kuban river).[2]
In the 1st century BC during the rule of Pharnaces II of Pontus, King of Siraces Abeacus organized 20,000 horses after the Roman occupation of the Kingdom of Pontus (63-62 BC).[2]
They and the Aorsi were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold.[2]
...
They were the most hellenized of the Sarmatians, and maintained good relations with the Bosporans.[2]
In 193 AD, after another conflict in the Bosporus, the Siraces disappears from the history.[2]
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

ok, note here that they "were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold."

Of course, they were successful as merchants, they had genetic and probably cultural link all the way to Serica proper in northwest China, where silk was produced, and to India via Pashtun Sarbans...

Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

[how yes no 2]

Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen and Weshesh, lands united.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Peleset were one of sea people that indulged in land invasion...

The Greek toponym Palestini (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[22] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[23][24] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[25] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic Samaritans led by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Bible).[26] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Plst or flst, Assyrian as Palastu, and the Hebraic as Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The name Pelasgians (Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the Hellenes in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably autochthonous people in the Greek world."[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the autochthonous inhabitants of the Aegean lands and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

Much like all other aspects of the "Pelasgians", their ethnonym (Pelasgoi) is of extremely uncertain provenance and etymology. Michel Sakellariou collects fifteen different etymologies proposed for it by philologists and linguists during the last 200 years, though he admits that "most...are fanciful".[5]
An ancient etymology based on mere similarity of sounds linked pelasgos to pelargos "stork" and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt, where they nest.[6] Aristophanes deals effectively with this etymology in his comedy the Birds. One of the laws of "the storks" in the satirical cloud-cuckoo-land, playing upon the Athenian belief that they were originally Pelasgians, is that grown-up storks must support their parents by migrating elsewhere and conducting warfare.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

hm, same words for people and for storks that go to Egypt to spend winter there... winter is the period of the year without crops... so, this could be about the nation who escaped hunger by migrating to Egypt and conducting warfare there...

Gilbert Murray summarizes the derivation from pelas gē, "neighboring land:"[8]
If Pelasgoi is connected with πέλας, 'near', the word would mean 'neighbor' and would denote the nearest strange people to the invading Greeks ...

I would add that capital of ancient Macedonians is Pella

The ancient Greek word for sea, pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[12]
Klein's interpretation does not require the Indo-Europeans to have had a word for sea, which living on the inland plains (if they did) they are likely to have lacked. On encountering the sea they simply used the word for plain, "the flat." The flatlanders also could acquire what must have been to the Hellenes a homonym, "the sea men". Best of all, if the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age encountered maritime marauders under this name they would have translated as Sea peoples.

ok, so we have Pelasgians, whose name means sea people, but also is used in comedy to compare them with storks that migrate to Egypt to spend winter there, as they seems to be nation that went to warfare in Egypt during period of hunger..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

I propose that out of Pelasgians come Palastu or Syrians of Palestine known today as Palestinians...
let's see whether hunger indeed could have been the cause of movement of Pelasgians from Greece to Syria and Palestine...

Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.

the movement of Lydians from Lydia in Asia minor to Italy where they became Etruscans is based on archeology and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)

sea people attacked Hattusa around 1180 BC, Egypt in 1175 BC...
those are comparable times with estimated settlement of Etruscans from Lydia in Asia Minor to Italy....

Lydia had capital Sardis (also Sparda, which is sometimes used instead of Lydia)

The endonym Śfard (the name the Lydians called themselves) survives in bilingual and trilingual stone-carved notices of the Achaemenid Empire: the satrapy of Sparda (Old Persian), Aramaic Saparda, Babylonian Sapardu, Elamitic Išbarda.[1] These in the Greek tradition are associated with Sardis, the capital city of Gyges, constructed in the 7th century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

Etruscans called themselves Raseni

In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

[how yes no 2]

Etruscans are often thought of as candidates for sea people based on the name Teresh that bares resemblance to their name Tyrrhenians

The Nine Bows were acting under the leadership of the king of Libya and an associated near-concurrent revolt in Canaan involving Gaza, Ashkelon, Yenoam and Israel. Exactly which peoples were consistently in the Nine Bows is not clear, but present at the battle were the Libyans, some neighboring Meshwesh, and possibly a separate revolt in the following year involving peoples from the eastern Mediterranean, including the Kheta (or Hittites), or Syrians, and (in the Israel Stele) for the first time in history, the Israelites. In addition to them, the first lines of the Karnak inscription include some sea peoples,[22] which must have arrived in the Western Delta or from Cyrene by ship:
[Beginning of the victory that his majesty achieved in the land of Libya] -i, Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden, Shekelesh, Northerners coming from all lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

hm, Libya was called Cyrene

anyway, one of sea people that are identified are Lukka

The earliest ethnic group[8] later considered among the Sea Peoples is believed to be attested in Egyptian hieroglyphics on the Byblos obelisk found in the Obelisk Temple at Byblos. The inscription mentions kwkwn son of rwqq, transliterated as Kukunnis, son of Lukka, "the Lycian".[9] The date is given variously as 2000 or 1700 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

so, let's sea what can we find out about Lycians

Ancient Egyptian records describe the Lycians as allies of the Hittites. Lycia may have been a member state of the Assuwa league of ca. 1250 BC, appearing as 'Lukka or Luqqa. After the collapse of the Hittite Empire, Lycia emerged as an independent "Neo-Hittite" kingdom. According to Herodotus, Lycia was named after Lycus, the son of Pandion II of Athens. The region was never unified into a single territory in antiquity, but remained a tightly-knit confederation of fiercely independent city-states.
The eternal fires of Chimera in Lycia which provides the setting for the Chimera myth.
Lycia was frequently mentioned by Homer as an ally of Troy. In Homer's Iliad, the Lycian contingent was said to have been led by two esteemed warriors: Sarpedon (son of Zeus and Laodamia) and Glaucus (son of Hippolochus). Elsewhere in Greek mythology, the Lycian kingdom was said to have been ruled by another Sarpedon, a Cretan exile and brother of the king Minos; Sarpedon's followers were called Termilae, and they founded a dynasty after their conquest of a people called the Milyans. As with the founding of Miletus, this mythical story implies a Cretan connection to the settlement of Asia Minor. Lycia appears elsewhere in Greek myth, such as in the story of Bellerophon, who eventually succeeded to the throne of the Lycian king Iobates (or Amphianax).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia

so, somehow both legendary leaders of Lycia carried name Sarpedon...

I think this might have been a title in fact... Sarpe don - ruler of Serbs
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_(honorific) for explanation of Don being at first used for royalty, select nobles.. don is similar to ban, pan and zupan which are titles of rulers among (south) Slavic tribes in middle age)

perhaps, just a coincidence but area of Croatia that was at least since Ottomans invasion till recent war in 1990s settled with Serbs carries name Lika...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika

[how yes no 2]

Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.

the movement of Lydians from Lydia in Asia minor to Italy where they became Etruscans is based on archeology and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)
sea people attacked Hattusa around 1180 BC, Egypt in 1175 BC...
those are comparable times with estimated settlement of Etruscans from Lydia in Asia Minor to Italy....
Lydia had capital Sardis (also Sparda, which is sometimes used instead of Lydia)

The endonym Śfard (the name the Lydians called themselves) survives in bilingual and trilingual stone-carved notices of the Achaemenid Empire: the satrapy of Sparda (Old Persian), Aramaic Saparda, Babylonian Sapardu, Elamitic Išbarda.[1] These in the Greek tradition are associated with Sardis, the capital city of Gyges, constructed in the 7th century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia
Etruscans called themselves Raseni

In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

In fact, according to chronology bellow, 18 years old hunger (cause of movement of Lydians to Italy where they became Etruscans) started at 1159 BC, thus after the movement of sea people... the attacks of sea people on Egypt were going on in parallel with Troyan war or before (1194BC) and after it (1175BC)... Hittite empire falls only 4 years after Troy??...

1197 BC: Ramses III of Egypt repels attacks by northern invaders (the "Sea-Peoples").
1194 BC: The beginning of the legendary Trojan War.
1186 BC: End of the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt, start of the Twentieth Dynasty.
April 24, 1184 BC: Traditional date for the fall of Troy, Asia Minor to the Mycenaeans and their allies. This marks the end of the Trojan War of Greek mythology.
1180 BC: Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa.
April 16, 1178 BC: A solar eclipse may mark the return of Odysseus, legendary King of Ithaca, to his kingdom after the Trojan War. He discovers a number of suitors competing to marry his wife Penelope, whom they believe to be a widow, in order to succeed him on the throne. He organizes their slaying and re-establishes himself on the throne.
1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
c. 1150 BC: End of Egyptian rule in Palestine. Rameses VI last Pharaoh acknowledged.
c. 1120 BC: destruction of Troy VIIb1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

Dates of the Trojan War

Since this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as either the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical age, several dates are given for the fall of Troy. They usually derive from genealogies of kings. Ephorus gives 1135 BC,[199] Sosibius 1172 BC,[200] Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC,[201] Timaeus 1193 BC,[202] the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC,[203] Dicaearchus 1212 BC,[204] Herodotus around 1250 BC,[205] Eretes 1291 BC,[206] while Douris 1334 BC.[207] As for the exact day Ephorus gives 23/24 Thargelion (July 6 or 7), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (May 26)[208] while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (July 7) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7).
The glorious and rich city Homer describes was believed to be Troy VI by many twentieth century authors, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake. Its follower Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the 1180s BC, was long considered a poorer city, but since the excavation campaign of 1988 it has risen to the most likely candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War

[how yes no 2]

Between 1206 and 1150 BCE, the cultural collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, the Hittite Empire in Anatolia and Syria,[1] and the Egyptian Empire in Syria and Canaan[2] interrupted trade routes and extinguished literacy. In the first phase of this period, almost every city between Troy and Gaza was violently destroyed, and often left unoccupied thereafter: examples include Hattusa, Mycenae, Ugarit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse

The Greek Dark Age or Ages (ca. 1200 BCE–800 BCE) are terms which have regularly been used to refer to the period of Greek history from the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean Palatial civilization around 1200 BCE, to the first signs of the Greek city-states in the 9th century BCE.
...
From around 1200 BCE, the palace centres and outlying settlements of the Mycenaeans' highly organized culture began to be abandoned or destroyed, and by 1050 BCE, the recognisable features of Mycenaean culture had disappeared. Many explanations attribute the fall of the Mycenaean civilization and the Bronze Age collapse to climatic or environmental catastrophe combined with an invasion by Dorians or by the Sea Peoples or the widespread availability of edged weapons of iron, but no single explanation fits the available archaeological evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

the work bellow finds evidence that set of bronze age civilization were in fact destroyed not by sea people but by series of earthquakes..

http://water.stanford.edu/nur/EndBronzeage.pdf

[LeBrok]

Troy was destroyed and rebuild many times. What the fall of Tory means in this context?

Not many people die in earthquakes. For the whole civilization to fall, usually it has to be a powerful enemy or economic collapse, it might be associated with climate change or not. In earthquakes few people die, and the homes are rebuilt right after. Most of people lived in rural areas in wooden shacks. Easy to rebuild, crops always survive earthquakes, and also herding animals. Earthquakes are very regional affairs, I've never heard of earthquake destroying whole countries. Unless we are talking about city state, but that's a far cry from the whole bronze civilization.

[how yes no 2]

Troy was destroyed and rebuild many times. What the fall of Tory means in this context?

I have no clue...
For me it was completely unexpected chronology... and I can't figure out how does it fit into the sea people context.... btw. Trojan war seems to have been time of big movement of people, as many later ethnic groups of Europe in fact had own legends of moving out of Asia minor after the fall of Troy...
but to conclude that those Troyan war and sea people attacks were connected or part of same wave is a bit difficult at this point... perhaps chronology is wrong... maybe sea people destroyed Willusa as well, while later that archeologically attested event was taken as a fall of Troy... still chronology for fall of Troy does fit well in range given by most historians of ancient Greece..

Not many people die in earthquakes. For the whole civilization to fall, usually it has to be a powerful enemy or economic collapse, it might be associated with climate change or not. In earthquakes few people die, and the homes are rebuilt right after. Most of people lived in rural areas in wooden shacks. Easy to rebuild, crops always survive earthquakes, and also herding animals. Earthquakes are very regional affairs, I've never heard of earthquake destroying whole countries. Unless we are talking about city state, but that's a far cry from the whole bronze civilization.

I agree, but I can also imagine that, when there are strong earthquakes every few months for several years, people want massively to move out of area...
which explains while cities were abandoned and not rebuilt and why cultures as Mycean were slowly declining rather than disappearing over night... in fact, sea people might be people affected by earthquakes moving in search for less shaky ground...

however, I reckon such terrible earthquakes would be remembered in collective memory of people as 18 year hunger from few decades later time is remembered by Lydians...

[how yes no 2]

The Tjekker or Tjeker were one of the Sea Peoples and are known mainly from the story of Wenamun ... they are thought to be the people who developed the port of Dor during the 12th century BCE from a small Bronze Age town to a large city. ...
The origins of Tjeker is uncertain. A possible linguistic connection has been suggested with the Teucri[3][4], a tribe described by ancient sources as inhabiting northwest Anatolia to the south of Troy.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tjeker

In Greek mythology, King Teucer (also Teucrus) was said to have been the son of the river Scamander and of the nymph Idaea. Before the arrival of Dardanus, the land that would come to be called Dardania (and later still the Troad) was known as Teucria and the inhabitants as Teucrians, after Teucer. Batea, King Teucer's daughter, was given in marriage to Dardanus, and after Teucer's death the land came to be known as Dardania. Yet in later times, the people of Troy often referred to themselves as "Teucrians".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Teucer

King Darius was full of wonder both at what they who had watched
the woman told him, and at what he had himself seen. So he commanded
that she should be brought before him. And the woman came; and with
her appeared her brothers, who had been watching everything a little
way off. Then Darius asked them of what nation the woman was; and
the young men replied that they were Paeonians, and she was their
sister. Darius rejoined by asking, "Who the Paeonians were, and in
what part of the world they lived? and, further, what business had
brought the young men to Sardis?" Then the brothers told him they
had come to put themselves under his power, and Paeonia was a
country upon the river Strymon, and the Strymon was at no great
distance from the Hellespont. The Paeonians, they said, were colonists
of the Teucrians from Troy. When they had thus answered his questions,
Darius asked if all the women of their country worked so hard? Then
the brothers eagerly answered, Yes; for this was the very object
with which the whole thing had been done.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancie...us-history.txt
Herodotus - History

Paeonians origin from Teucer
Tjeker are founders of town Dor
could they be Dorians in origin?
in ancient Greece, Dorians are Macedonians (settled just south of Paeonians) and Spartans...

Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.
What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancie...us-history.txt
Herodotus - History


but Dorian invasion also is estimated to have happened around 1200 BC (btw. no Macedonians in Trojan war, and Sparta might have been originally about Lydia that was known as Sparda)
Dorians are hellenic tribe, while Athenians are Pelasgians in origin...
some theories propose that Dorians arrived much later

The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of the Geometric period at about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.[19] However, they appear to have been general over all of Greece; moreover, the new weapons would not have been used in 1200.
The scholars were now faced with the conundrum of an invasion at 1200 but a resettlement at 950. What took the Dorians so long and where were they for several generations? One answer is that the destruction of 1200 was not caused by the Dorians and that the quasi-mythical return of the Heracleidae is to be associated with settlement at Sparta ca. 950. It was a migration easily accomplished in a military vacuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

thus Trojan war might have been in fact pre-helenistic event, that came to ancient Greeks via assimilated Pelasges (Athenians being one of them)


Tjeker and Peleset as Teucer/Paeonians and Pelasges?
perhaps, this is connected to Trojan war afterall...

Greek armies: Abantes, Arcadia, Aetolia, Athens and Salamis, Argos and Tiryns, Boebeans (Thessaly), Boeotia, Crete, Dulichium, Elis, Elone (Thessaly), Enienes, Iolcus (Thessaly), Ithaca, Locris, Magnesia, Meliboea, Minyans, Mycenae and Corinth, Myrmidones of Argos, Oechalia, Ormenius, Pherae, Phylacia, Phocia, Pylos, Rhodes, Sparta, Syme

Trojan armies: Amazons, Adrasteia, Chalybes (Halizones), Colonae, Cicones, Dardania, Ethiopia, Lycia, Maeonia, Miletus, Mysia, Paionia, Pelasgians, Percote, Phrygia, Thrace, Troy, Zeleia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...War_characters

thus, in Trojan armies are: Lycia (Lukka), Troy & Paionians (Teucer = >Tjekker ?), Pelasgians (=> Peleset)

btw. people that lost the Trojan war seems to have migrated in all directions

According to the mythology outlined by Virgil in the Aeneid, Romulus and Remus were both descendants of Aeneas through their mother Rhea Silvia, making Aeneas progenitor of the Roman people. Some early sources call him their father or grandfather,[2] but considering the commonly accepted dates of the fall of Troy (1184 BC) and the founding of Rome (753 BC), this seems unlikely. The Julian family of Rome, most notably Julius Cæsar and Augustus, traced their lineage to Ascanius and Aeneas, thus to the goddess Aphrodite. Through the Julians, the Palemonids also make this claim. The legendary kings of Britain also trace their family through a grandson of Aeneas, Brutus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

In fact, I wonder if R1b that came to Europe from Asia minor can have something to do with post-Troyan war movement of people... in fact, variance of R1b strongly correlates with position of Troy and its closest neighbourhood...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/?tool=pubmed

note that Trojan war might have also happened much before 1200 BC.. but still migration of this R1b was probably much earlier around 8500 years before present



... and this type of R1b seems not to be dominant in Italy and Germania where the stories of origin from Troy are more common...


variance of I2a2 is also higer in the same part of Asia minor around Troy... and among Troyan allies we find Amazones (that are legendary female ancestors of Sarmatians) and also Lycians led by Sarpedon, which may explain tribal and place names such as Sarbans, Sherdana, Serbonis...

[how yes no 2]

back to Seres/Serian people.. this time let's hear what Seneca knows about them:

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

thus,these people live: near red sea, near Scythians, in Caspian heights among Sarmatians, around Danube, and in far east place where they get silk from...


in the translation bellow instead of Serians, word Seres is used:

Those who
lead ihe wandering Daci, those who hold in subjection,
the borders of the Red Sea, and the sea in many places
looking red, as it were with bright gems; nor those upon
the Caspian mountain ridges, at the approach of the
brave Sarmatians, and may they contend against him,
who with intrepid steps advance upon the glassy Danube
(frozen) and wherever the Seres are found, renowned for
their particular thread (silk) thev bring from that far-off
country—

http://www.archive.org/stream/tentra...egoog_djvu.txt

also from the same link (10 works of Seneca on same web page):

Take away, slaves, these garments dyed with pur-
ple and ornamented with gold; remove, I command, the
ravishing colors of the Tyrian d^res which adorn those
delicate fabrics, which the Seres *' in their far-off country,
gather from the branches of trees;

Seneca - HIPPOLYTUS



according to Seneca Serians live ungarded from Sarmatians (which indicates very special relationship), but Serians are not one of the Sarmatians,

and their location in Caspian highlands in fact corresponds to position of Serboi/Serbi in Sarmatia Asiatica..



Siraces are thought to be same as Serboi...


Serians are also not Scythians, but they rule/lead Scythians/Dacians... they also dare to cross frozen Danube, which places them in central/east Europe

btw.note that one translation mentions Dacians other Scythians... interesting thought: if we know that Goths were as well called Scythians by some authors, and that Dacians as self-identification sounds pretty much the same as Deutch...

anyway, spread of I2 and Seneca seems to tell the same story

Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Siraces, Serboi, Serbs ..


they bring silk from their far-off land, which corresponds to Seres people in north-west China...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

they rule around the Red sea, which identifies them as likely to origin from sea people or Sherdana...

in fact they didnot just attack Egypt and failed, according to Seneca they ruled on Red sea...

so who were them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans

The Sabaeans or Sabeans (Arabic: السبأيون‎ as-Saba’iyūn) were an ancient people speaking an Old South Arabian language who lived in what is today Yemen, in the south west of the Arabian Peninsula. Some Sabaeans also lived in D'mt, located in northern Ethiopia and Eritrea, due to their hegemony over the Red Sea[1].
Some scholars suggest a link between the Sabaeans and the Biblical land of Sheba.[1]


The ancient Sabaean Kingdom established power in the early 1st millennium BC. In the 1st century BC it was conquered by the Himyarites, but after the disintegration of the first Himyarite empire of the Kings of Saba' and Dhu-Raydan the Middle Sabaean Kingdom reappeared in the early 2nd century. It was finally conquered by the Himyarites in the late 3rd century. Its capital was Ma'rib. The kingdom was located along the strip of desert called Sayhad by medieval Arab geographers and that is called now Ramlat al-Sab`atayn.
The Sabaean people were South Arabian people. Each of these had regional kingdoms in ancient Yemen, with the Minaeans in the north along the Red sea, the Sabeans on the south western tip, stretching from the highlands to the sea, the Qatabanians to the east of them and the Hadramites east of them.
The Sabaeans, like the other Yemenite kingdoms of the same period, were involved in the extremely lucrative spice trade, especially frankincense and myrrh.[2]
They left behind many inscriptions in the monumental Musnad (Old South Arabian) alphabet, as well as numerous documents in the cursive Zabur script.

Sabeans established power in times mediatelly following attacks of sea people... hm...
Sabeans position matches the one of mythical kingdom of Sheba ruled by even more famous queen of Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

Known to the Ethiopian people as Makeda or Maqueda (ማክዳ mākidā),[3] this queen has been called a variety of names by different peoples in different times. To King Solomon of Israel she was the Queen of Sheba. In Islamic tradition she was called Balqis or Balkis by the Arabians, who say she came from the city of Sheba, also called Mareb, in Yemen or Arabia Felix. The Roman historian Josephus calls her Nicaule. She is thought to have been born on January 5, sometime in the 10th century BC.

In Islamic tradition queen of Sheba was called Balqis or Balkis by the Arabians, which perfectly explains why during the Arab influenced Ottoman empire the area settled with Serbs got name Balkan

In fact, same queen of Sheba was known as Makeda as well, which might indicate a link to ancient Macedonians and Dorians in general... ( see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=48 )


Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Siraces, Serboi, Serbs, Sabeans?, Sheba?..

[Regulus]

That was an interesting article. Would you summarize this by saying that Serbians (and possibly other Slavs) were established in the Balkans at the time of the "Sea Peoples"?

[how yes no 2]

That was an interesting article. Would you summarize this by saying that Serbians (and possibly other Slavs) were established in the Balkans at the time of the "Sea Peoples"?

I do not have enough data to claim that Serbs were in Balkans in times of "sea peoples".... original idea is that "sea peoples" might have started their journey from Balkan, but that is just a hypotheses, while other things I wrote about later on are on much firmer ground...

[Regulus]

It could very well be possible that the root word from which Serb was derived was common among IE peoples. “Tuath” or “Teuton”, referring more or less to tribe. “Arya”-type based words referring to “the people” or “us”, etc. do occur with relative frequency across the IE board. “Ser” or “Shar” could well be a similar thing. The latter two may even hearken back to “Arya”-type words.
Shardana, who are held by many to have come from Sardinia, fought for the Egyptians.
It would not be hard to see these types as representative of IE war bands out seeking adventure, loot, recognition among their people, etc.

For the bulk of the makeup of the “Sea Peoples, (Not to exclude all others that may have participated) I am inclined to go with displaced Achaean Greeks. The timing of the Dorian invasions, appearance in history of the “Sea Peoples” who were only repelled after considerable effort of Egypt, along with the rather sudden establishment of the Philistine state, seem to come together in an all too nice fit not to be a strong probability.
I would add that the Philistines are decribed as having the use of iron, maybe new to them but still a step ahead of their Semitic neighbors, who still have bronze. Heroic single-combat events were not unknown to them either. The Sea Peoples appear to follow a path from Greece over to Asia Minor, down the coast, get beaten by Egypt, and then probably settle in the place later to be named Palestine (Latin translation of Philistine) by the Romans. This was very possibly done in an effort to erase as much as they could of Jewish connections to the land after the revolts.

The southern migrations of the Dorians had a profound if temporary effect in the Eastern Mediterranean. Not all Achaeans stayed on to live as second-class citizens. Many presumably had the resources to start afresh and kind of go a-Viking, meting out the same treatment to others as the Dorians had done to them. Both Dorians and Achaaeans in fact had the IE culture where that was common.

[how yes no 2]

It could very well be possible that the root word from which Serb was derived was common among IE peoples. “Tuath” or “Teuton”, referring more or less to tribe. “Arya”-type based words referring to “the people” or “us”, etc. do occur with relative frequency across the IE board. “Ser” or “Shar” could well be a similar thing. The latter two may even hearken back to “Arya”-type words.
Shardana, who are held by many to have come from Sardinia, fought for the Egyptians.

assumption about link between Shardana and Sardinia is made and used by many authors, however only reason stated by authors is that it sounds similar.... (btw. lake in Egypt named after "sea people" is Serbonian bog or Sirbonis)

word Serb might be derived from some commonly used word and be widespread tribal name of different people, but point is not in tribal name Serb only, but also in haplogroup I spread correlating with spread of "sea peoples" ....

Sardinians are also haplogroup I, but point is also that Egyptian sources talk (in context of "sea peoples" attack) also about mass settlement of people coming from north with oxes and wagons, and I somehow cannot imagine underwater tunnel from Sardinia to Egypt....

in fact, I would say "sea people" are very likely related to later Sabaeans/Sheba and Palestines, perhaps with Syrians as well.

Question is where did they spread from. Seneca gives clear clue about that by stating that the Red sea Serians, the ones of Serica in silk rich north west China, the ones among Dacians and near Danube, and the ones in Caspian mountains (where we find Serboi tribe) are the same people... together with haplogroup I trace this pinpoints to proto-Serb tribe which seems to have been both brave / warlike and merchant nation...

as for Palestinians, my guess is that they origin from Pelasgues which are pre-hellenic inhabitants of Greece and Balkan...

btw. words Teuton and Aria are not really widespread among IE tribal names...
those words were only widespread after recently being misused in nazi-propaganda

[how yes no 2]

perhaps you do not trust Seneca...
so, let's see where Seres come from according to Jordanes

This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea. On the west are the Germans and the river Vistula; on the arctic side, namely the north, it is surrounded by Ocean; on the south by Persis, Albania, Hiberia, Pontus and the farthest channel of the Ister, which is called the Danube all the way from mouth to source. (32)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

Jordanes - origin and deeds of Goths


Seres thus origin from shores of Caspian sea (which is where Serboi lived)

difference is that Seneca lives in period 1 BC – 65 AD
while Jordanes lives in 6th century

thus, in time between Seneca and Jordanes information about Seres shrinked from being the same as Serians of Red sea, the ones of Caspian mountains and the ones among Dacians and near Danube, to originating from shores of Caspian sea...

Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...

Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

thus, Pliny talks about some of Seres living in Balkans... same author talks about Seres in Caspian highlands and quotes Agripa's definition of Caspian area and nations living there

Agrippa in bounding out and limiting the circuit of the Caspian sea, and the regions coasting upon it, togither with them Armenia both the greater and the lesse, namely Eastward with the Ocean of the Seres, Westward with the mountains of Caucasus, on the South side with the hill Taurus, and finally on the North with the Scithian Ocean, hath written,

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny6.html

in fact regarding the Seres who live upon mount Athos it is the best to research which people populated the area...

Herodotus tells us that Pelasgians from the island of Lemnos populated the peninsula, then called Acte or Akte. (Herodotus, VII:22)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos

in fact, this is the clue about non-Dorian I2a2 in Greece that is found in Lesbos area, that I was puzzled with in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=48

it comes from Pelasgians, that is from Seres !!

btw. regarding Palestines whom I think to origin from Pelasgians

The Greek toponym Palestini (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[22] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[23][24] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[25] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic Samaritans led by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Bible).[26] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Plst or flst, Assyrian as Palastu, and the Hebraic as Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

all this is in accordance with spread of haplogroup I along sea coasts of Levant and than into west part of Saudi Arabia peninsula.
I think it is very likely that we can attribute this spread to "sea peoples" who mixed with local populations giving Syrians, Syrrians of Palestine (or Palestines), and Sabaeans/Sheba



timeline:
- around 1175 BC spread of "sea people" brings down many previous kingdoms in Asia minor and Levant... Egyptian sources record it is not just a military contest, but a massive settlement wave...
it is known that in Egypt, the Serbonian bog or Sirbonis is named after "sea peoples"
- Queen of Sheba born somewhere in 10th century
- Kingdom of Saba appears in history records between 9th century BCE and CE 275
- During the second millennium BCE, Syria was occupied successively by Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Arameans as part of the general disruptions associated with the Sea Peoples; the Phoenicians settled along the coastline of these area as well as in the west (Now Lebanon & The current Syrian coast), in the area already known for its cedars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Syria
- Palestines (name first recorded in 5th century BC for Syrians of Palestine)
- in 1st century AD Seneca states that Serians of Red sea (clearly about kingdom of Saba), Serians of Caspian highlands (around the times when tribe Serboi recorded there), Serians in Europe (near Danube and amongst Dacians) and Serians in far east producing silk (clear reference to Seres and land of Serica) are all the same people..

obviously Syrians are not mentioned among Serians in 1st century AD... in fact, area of Syria is part of Phoenicia before, during and after the period of "sea peoples", and Phoenicians were likely carriers of J2 haplogroup mostly
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...4&postcount=78

I am curious whether I in Levant is in fact I2a1, which would explain its spread in north Africa and south west Europe as related to Phoenicians... at the moment I expect it is more likely I2a2 or I2*...

[how yes no 2]

The term invasion is used generally in the literature concerning the period to mean the documented attacks implying a local or unspecified origin. An origin outside the Aegean also has been proposed, as in this example by Michael Grant: "There was a gigantic series of migratory waves, extending all the way from the Danube valley to the plains of China."[55]
Such a comprehensive movement is associated with more than one people or culture; instead, a "disturbance" happens, according to Finley:[56]
A large-scale movement of people is indicated ... the original centre of disturbance was in the Carpatho-Danubian region of Europe. ... It appears ... to have been ... pushing in different directions at different times.
If different times are allowed on the Danube, they are not in the Aegean: "all this destruction must be dated to the same period about 1200."[56]
The following movements are compressed by Finley into the 1200 BC window: the Dorian Invasion, the attacks of the Sea Peoples, the formation of Philistine kingdoms in the Levant and the fall of the Hittite Empire, when in fact, those events required at least a few hundred years.
The archaeological evidence is treated in the same way. Robert Drews[57] presents a map showing the destruction sites of 47 fortified major settlements, which he terms "Major Sites Destroyed in the Catastrophe". They are concentrated in the Levant, with some in Greece and Anatolia. The questions of dates and agents of destruction remain for the most part unanswered in detail, without which no single catastrophe or related catastrophes can be postulated beyond the level of pure speculation.
The invaders, that is, the replacement cultures at those sites, apparently made no attempt to retain the cities' wealth but instead built new settlements of a materially simpler cultural and less complex economic level atop the ruins. For example, no one appropriated the palace and rich stores at Pylos, but all were burned up, and the successors (whomever they were) moved in over the ruins with plain pottery and simple goods. This demonstrates a cultural discontinuity.
Whether all the discontinuities were sufficiently contemporaneous to warrant a theory of great waves of invasion another question. Ethnic identities from the Danube and beyond are in short supply in the records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-54

[Regulus]

btw. words Teuton and Aria are not really widespread among IE tribal names...
those words were only widespread after recently being misused in nazi-propaganda

Well, this one isn't too hard to put away quickly. The two words mentioned above, their use to described one's clan, and their cognates are relatively common among IE peoples. The fact that Nazis and others made wildly exaggerated claims doesn't negate that at all. One problem that we see since the Nazis were swept from power (Thankfully so) is a knee-jerk reaction the other way - trying to paste over the whole IE migration thing and attributing what happened to cultural diffusion or other people altogether.


How Yes or Know, I am suspecting that I "rub you the wrong way". I like the discussions , but I try to add my points in manner that is as non-confrontational as possible. If I fail in this, please let me know


At this point, without marshalling all kinds of data, I will submit that the displaced Achaeans are the most likely candidates for most of the Sea Peoples. Perhaps you will be able to swing me over to your side at some point.

[how yes no 2]

Well, this one isn't too hard to put away quickly. The two words mentioned above, their use to described one's clan, and their cognates are relatively common among IE peoples.

as far as I know there was single Teuton tribe in history and single Aryan tribe as well... if you know more tribes that carried name Teuton and Aryan please identify them...

only Aryans in history were the ones in ancient times in India...

Teuton tribe is Germanic tribe known from historical records of 1st and 2nd century AD, it is gone from history after participating in zig-zag conquest together with Cimbri



sometimes the term is used to denote Germanic tribes in general, same as name derived from Suebi is used in Slavic countries for Germans...
but there were no zillion tribes named alike to Teutons, there was only that single tribe.. so, no, the tribal name was not widespread among IE folk...

How Yes or Know, I am suspecting that I "rub you the wrong way". I like the discussions , but I try to add my points in manner that is as non-confrontational as possible. If I fail in this, please let me know

no, I tend to be somewhat aggressive in discussions... do not take that seriously... that's merely a style of expression issue...

At this point, without marshalling all kinds of data, I will submit that the displaced Achaeans are the most likely candidates for most of the Sea Peoples. Perhaps you will be able to swing me over to your side at some point.

movement of sea peoples is about more than single tribe... general direction of movement is from north towards south....so it is quite possible that there were Achaeans there as well...what confuses me the most is overlapping of the timeline of sea peoples conquest with Trojan war...and overlapping of some names among sea peoples with tribes that lost in Trojan war (Pelast/Pelasgues, Tjekker / Teucri (Troyans), Lukka (Lycians)...)