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Thread: new ancient DNA study in LBK

  1. #26
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    But how do you explain the Finnish case, with so much blondism and 60% of N1c ?
    Blond Finns are south-west Finns, who are mostly I1a and R1a. They are most likely the descendants of Bronze Age Swedes (before R1b reached Sweden).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Also, if the R1b hg is indo-european, how is that the Iberians (mainly in today Catalonia, 80% R1b) are considered pre-Indoeuropean ??
    MtDNA lineages in Spain are mostly Paleolithic. The high frequency of Spanish and Basque R1b are most likely due to a fast replacement of male lineages as explained here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    what ? north african features in Brittany ? Since when is dark hair a north-african feature ? And where do you get that Baltics and Polaks are the most representatives of Indo-europeans ?? The Celts were also indo-europeans, and they settled mostly in France, Iberia, Ireland, etc. they didn't settle in Poland nor the Baltic area. Plus the Balts have lots of Ugric N1c like the Finnish.
    Excuse me about North African features who means nothing but these Britons have really sometimes brown skins , brown eyes and dark hair (not raid hair) and they are R1b1b2 of Brittany so from where they come from Big lips brown skin black hair ? so they are Britons for a while .. This is not a recent migration the women line come from the paleolithic as in Spain or the Basque era : the ausomal DNA has turned to brown skin and black eyes in some and many of them so it is a nice mixture sometimes for cute girls
    Nico

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Excuse me about North African features who means nothing but these Britons have really sometimes brown skins , brown eyes and dark hair (not raid hair) and they are R1b1b2 of Brittany so from where they come from
    R1b1b2 is not even found in North Africa. Saying that dark-hair is of north-african origin in Europe is ridiculously ignorant.

    Big lips brown skin black hair ? so they are Britons for a while .. This is not a recent migration the women line come from the paleolithic as in Spain or the Basque era : the ausomal DNA has turned to brown skin and black eyes in some and many of them so it is a nice mixture sometimes for cute girls
    Big lips as in africans ? sure. Dude you are troll or what ?

  4. #29
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Blond Finns are south-west Finns, who are mostly I1a and R1a. They are most likely the descendants of Bronze Age Swedes (before R1b reached Sweden).
    But Lithuanians, Lativians and Estonians have also a good amount of N1c, and they don't have as much swedish blood as Finns. And they have lots of blondism too.

    MtDNA lineages in Spain are mostly Paleolithic. The high frequency of Spanish and Basque R1b are most likely due to a fast replacement of male lineages as explained here.
    So, Iberians were haplogroups I2 ? It is rarely found in Catalonia, about 4%

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    But Lithuanians, Lativians and Estonians have also a good amount of N1c, and they don't have as much swedish blood as Finns. And they have lots of blondism too.
    They have a very high percentage of R1a.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    So, Iberians were haplogroups I2 ? It is rarely found in Catalonia, about 4%
    Yes, they were. North-eastern and central Iberians are still predominantly I2 if you remove all the R1b, R1a and G2a3b1a.

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    You wrote that a lot of Poles and Russians have fair hair and light eyes.
    When I was in Poland and Russia, I saw especially in Russia and Ukrainia
    many people with black eyes. Some times I believe that real Slave have
    dark eyes and dark hair, maybe mongoloid or Tartarian admixture.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    Yes, Poland and Russia are predominantly dark-haired. As an example, the Polish national team (all ethnic polaks) :


  8. #33
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, they were. North-eastern and central Iberians are still predominantly I2 if you remove all the R1b, R1a and G2a3b1a.
    So, in the case of Catalonia, this R1b replacemet when that would be ? During the Urnfield Culture wave of indo-europeans ? The Celts of the western Peninsula ? Because the Celtic remains of Catalonia are scarce, at least when compared with overwhelming remains of the western part of Iberia.

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    Poland has a fair percentage of light haired people but the large majority are dark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    R1b1b2 is not even found in North Africa. Saying that dark-hair is of north-african origin in Europe is ridiculously ignorant.

    Big lips as in africans ? sure. Dude you are troll or what ?
    Not big as Africans hahaha I never said that ! Anyway this is not a joke I know personally very well all Brittany country side and "Vende" a region in south of Brittany . If you have the opportunity to travel there you will see a mixture of people some are brown and some are white and blond as I said now I know the explanation according Maciamo .
    Last edited by willy; 12-11-10 at 04:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Poland has a fair percentage of light haired people but the large majority are dark.
    But they (the Polish people ) are Y-DNA R1a at very high level no ? are the women come from the paleolithic ?
    Last edited by willy; 12-11-10 at 02:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Yes, Poland and Russia are predominantly dark-haired. As an example, the Polish national team (all ethnic polaks) :

    They really look the French : a mixture ..
    Last edited by willy; 12-11-10 at 04:06.

  13. #38
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    You wrote that a lot of Poles and Russians have fair hair and light eyes.
    When I was in Poland and Russia, I saw especially in Russia and Ukrainia
    many people with black eyes. Some times I believe that real Slave have
    dark eyes and dark hair, maybe mongoloid or Tartarian admixture.
    It really depends where you go. Around Belarus and St Petersburg, people have far more blond hair and blue eyes than in southern Russia. But Southern Russian nowadays are a completely different people than the Bronze Age steppe people.

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    I read several times that the Indo-Germanic tribes (haplogroups
    R 1a and R1 b) have exterminated all most of the Neolithic men
    (haplogroups E, I and J). It is a difficult thing to believe it.
    Were mass graves found? It was a primitive society, they had not
    extermination weapons at disposal. For example: Caesar wrote
    that he exterminated the Eburones (a Belgium/Germanic tribe),
    of course he murdered a lot of them, but others escaped to the
    marshes between the Waal and Rhine (Netherlands).

    Most areas were thinly populated, for example Norway and Sweden.
    There were inaccessible mountains and woods. A lot of survivors
    of the ancient Mesolithic and Neolithic ages must have taken their
    refuge in Scandinavia and Finnland. For example the haplogroups
    R1a and R1 b are rare in Finnland.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I read several times that the Indo-Germanic tribes (haplogroups
    R 1a and R1 b) have exterminated all most of the Neolithic men
    (haplogroups E, I and J). It is a difficult thing to believe it.
    Were mass graves found? It was a primitive society, they had not
    extermination weapons at disposal. For example: Caesar wrote
    that he exterminated the Eburones (a Belgium/Germanic tribe),
    of course he murdered a lot of them, but others escaped to the
    marshes between the Waal and Rhine (Netherlands).
    Good that you mention Julius Caesar. He exterminate an estimated 1 million Gauls and enslaved one more million during his campaigns. This is out of a population of 5 million Gauls at the time.

    Caesar is said to have killed more than half of the individuals in the Helvetii tribe. This alone is incredible given that Gauls had a roughly equivalent military technology to the Romans (although they were less organised and disciplined).

    So imagine what it must have been when the Indo-Europeans arrived with bronze weapons almost as good as the Roman ones and fighting against Neolithic farmers who had nothing better than tiny stone hatchets or wood and stone spears. The inequality was so huge that Neolithic people would have been massacred on a battlefield. It's not sure this is what happened. They could indeed have fled to mountainous and marshy areas. But that would have had a similar consequence on their numbers in the long term. Deprived of all the good agricultural land, they would have suffered starvation at first, until their population decreased to a fraction of what they used to be. During that time, the Indo-European population would boom thanks to all the newly acquired land.

    Most areas were thinly populated, for example Norway and Sweden.
    There were inaccessible mountains and woods. A lot of survivors
    of the ancient Mesolithic and Neolithic ages must have taken their
    refuge in Scandinavia and Finnland. For example the haplogroups
    R1a and R1 b are rare in Finnland.
    That's right. I think that it is because Sweden and Finland were so forested, cold and inhospitable that the indigenous populations survived in greater number. But southern Scandinavia was undeniably taken over by the Indo-Europeans from the Corded Ware/Battle-Axe culture.

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    So a lot of Neolithic men have take their refugee in Scandinavia, British
    Island and the Netherlands. Indeed there are many with haplogroup I,
    but very few with E and J. Many fair/red haired men (Borreby and
    Bruenn Aurignac men) can be found be. Are they descendants of the
    ancient hunters of west and southwest Europe from Palaelithic and
    Mesolithic Ages? The men who bear the haplogroups R1a and Rb1
    must have arrived there much later on, for example 2500-2000 BC?
    Is this correct?

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    But couldn't it also be that the Indo-Europeans, after conquering the Neolithic farmers, took all their women and produced offspring with them, while the Neolithic males, if they haven't been killed slided into a much lower class which made it very hard for them to get married? So a lot of these Neolithic genes are still in us, but not the Y-DNA for obvious reason?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    But couldn't it also be that the Indo-Europeans, after conquering the Neolithic farmers, took all their women and produced offspring with them, while the Neolithic males, if they haven't been killed slided into a much lower class which made it very hard for them to get married? So a lot of these Neolithic genes are still in us, but not the Y-DNA for obvious reason?
    So it seems their women were very attractive with fair hair and blue eyes !

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    I guess they were all blond, so guys got board and went after variety. lol
    No sure if blond is naturally attractive to all. Tatars didn't take blond women home, right? But they easily could.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I guess they were all blond, so guys got board and went after variety. lol
    No sure if blond is naturally attractive to all. Tatars didn't take blond women home, right? But they easily could.
    Yes correct not many blonds in the steppe as our attractive blond paleolithic/neolithic Scandinavian girls lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Yes, Poland and Russia are predominantly dark-haired. As an example, the Polish national team (all ethnic polaks) :

    Half of them look like they could be Mexican or some other Latin American group. Are you sure they aren't illegal immigrants who snuck into Poland.

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    Surely Y DNA cannot explain phenotypes among human populations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    Half of them look like they could be Mexican or some other Latin American group. Are you sure they aren't illegal immigrants who snuck into Poland.
    may be some ?

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    I am still wondering about R1a, R1b, I1 and N1c1 in influencing fair hair and blue eyes.

    To my observation Finnish and Scandinavians have much large share of very blond people (with almost white hair) while in Latvians and Lithuanian the blondism is different - the typical colour is somewhat in between dark and light. Thus the very light hair might come with I1 rather than R1a. Also, I am quite puzzled about N1c1. If it comes with dark hair, brown eyes, and prominent skulls as in Siberian FinnoUgric peoples, Lithuanians should look rather different, as we have a bit more of N1c1 than R1a. Having in mind that dark is dominant gene, there should be more brown eyes at least instead of the typical pale blue. Unless, of course, there is maternal DNA heavily at play...

    This is the Lithuanian national basketball team of 2010 so that you could see that real hair colour:
    Attachment 4752

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes and no. It depends when, and where in Anatolia. Nowadays R1b is more common in northern and eastern Anatolia. However R1b is not dominant there, and probably came from somewhere else first (like the Pontic-Caspian steppe or even Central Asia). It's hard to say at present when R1b entered Anatolia, and if these early Anatolian R1b were indeed the ancestors of present-day Western Europeans.

    I had imagined that the R1b homeland might actually be on the other side of the Caucasus, between the northern shore of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Repeated westward and southward invasions would have brought R1b to Europe and Anatolia, but also depleted the original stock, until most of the R1b were pushed out of the Pontic steppes by their R1a neighbours. Of course this would have taken several millennia to achieve, starting approximately 5000 years ago, and ending not so long ago, with the last Central Asian invaders (Bulgars, Magyars, Khazars) that swept across the Pontic steppes to Europe (=> see my thread 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian steppes to Europe ).

    If modern Europeans descended in great part from Anatolia, Caucasian and Levantine immigrants, the incidence of fair hair and fair eyes would not be as high as it is today. Let's not forget red hair, which is almost unique to Western European R1b countries and parts of Central Asia. If red and blond hair came from Paleolithic Europeans (hg I), then the highest incidence would be in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sardinia. But these places are among the darkest in Europe for hair colour (Sardinia might well be the darkest, close to 100% black hair - Sardinian R1b appears to be mostly R-U152 from continental Italy, where the high percentage of Near-Eastern blood had lowered the incidence of fair hair before R1b reached Sardinia).
    But isnt Basques , south France and Iberia are also very dark haired - more than Bosnia , and they are 90%+ R1b ?

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