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Thread: new ancient DNA study in LBK

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    new ancient DNA study in LBK

    A new study from Haak: "Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities" see http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000536
    The interesting point is the Y-DNA test on 3 LBK samples from Germany: one is G2a3, the 2 others are F*.
    The paper emphasizes the absence of R1b and R1a among this LBK population.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting. Finally some Neolithic Y-DNA from Europe. As I had expected no R1a or R1b.

    Y-DNA analysis

    The presence of F* is a bit befuddling considering that it has virtually disappeared from the modern population, except in specific parts of the Caucasus*. This could mean that the Neolithic farmers of the LBK originated in the (southern) Caucasus, the place where cattle, goats and pigs were first domesticated.

    The rarity of F* and G2a3 in the geographic area corresponding to the LBK Culture also means that the R1a and R1b Indo-Europeans who invaded Europe in the 3rd millenium BCE most certainly killed most of the men from the Neolithic population. In fact, the G2a3 found in northern Europe nowadays belongs mostly to a more recent subclade (G2a3b1a) that also certainly originated in the Caucasus, but only came to Europe during the Bronze Age, accompanying R1b1b2a1.

    mtDNA analysis

    Out of 26 mtDNA haplotypes identified, there were :

    - 3 N1a
    - 3 HV
    - 3 H
    - 1 V
    - 3 J
    - 6 T (incl. 3 T2)
    - 4 K
    - 1 U5a1a
    - 2 W

    No big surprise here. It is pretty much a Middle Eastern composition, except the U5a1a, V and W samples (perhaps an assimilated hunter-gatherers). Note the near absence of haplogroup U, which is the dominant haplogroup after H in northern Europe nowadays. As I had predicted, hg U is of Paleolithic European origin (U5) or of Indo-European origin (U2, U3, U4), which is to say of Paleolithic Eastern and North-Eastern European origin (Russia, Ukraine).

    Neolithic lineages had a high proportion of N1a and HV compared to the modern European population, which also supports the hypothesis of a major population shift since then. The authors mention that only 11 of these 26 haplotypes are found in high frequency in the present-day population. In other words, there would have been massive extinction of lineages on the maternal side too, although probably less important than for male lineages.


    Predicting Y-DNA from mtDNA

    The article comes with a map of genetic distances between the LBK samples and modern populations. It confirms a strong link with Anatolia and the Caucasus.



    North-east Spain, south-west France, Cornwall and south Wales, which have the highest percentage of R1b1b2 in the world (along with Ireland), display one of the highest genetic distance from Near Eastern mtDNA (either LBK or modern Near East). If this needs explanations, it means that maternal lineages associated with high R1b populations simply do not correlate with the Neolithic diffusion of agriculture from the Near East. In other words, it is highly unlikely that Near Eastern farmers brought R1b to Western Europe.

    The map also shows that the regions where Y-DNA haplogroup I is the strongest in comparison to Near-Eastern haplogroups E1b1b, T, J and G2a (i.e. northern Spain, Scandinavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina) are the regions where mtDNA lineages are the farthest from the LBK/Near-Eastern samples.



    (more detailed above the above map in the thread Europe before the Indo-Europeans)

    Since I determined the percentage of Paleolithic vs Neolithic admixture by subtracting R1a and R1b percentages, this new study provides a confirmation that that R1a and R1b were indeed absent in Central and Western Europe during the Neolithic, since their modern incidence can be completely ignored to determine which region has the most Near-Eastern/Neolithic lineages.

    The part of northern France around Picardy and Upper Normandy seems to be a hotspot for Near Eastern mtDNA. I had previously noticed the higher than average incidence of hg G2a and J2 in the region. I have personally observed that people in this region did look considerably more Caucasian (not Semitic) than elsewhere in northern Europe. A perfect example is French Defence Minister Hervé Morin (pictured below), who hails from this part of France.



    I think that Neolithic LBK farmers from the Caucasus could have looked like that.


    * I have since noticed that the authors of the study did not test for all the SNP's downstream of F, so that it is possible that the F* are actually pre-I or pre-J lineages.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 11-11-10 at 19:32.
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    Only three y-dna haplotypes...Though it is interesting results, what we can conclude on such small sample?

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    Very interesting messages! Do the results of this research do nothing the
    research of the University of Kiel? Please let me pose three questions:

    1) what has happened with the descendants of the southwest French
    Cro-Magnons and Aurignacs? Did they go to Scandinavia? Coon wrote
    in his book "Races of Europe" that so called "Upperpalaeolithic men" in
    Norway, Denmark and Ireland are descendants of them. What has happened with the ancient men of the Mesolithicum? The so called Borreby and Bruenn types are descendants of the hunters who lived during the Ice Age in south France.
    2) When did the men with haplogroup I enter Western Europe? And from which part of Europe? The haplogroup I is very important in the north of
    Netherlands, the British Islands, Denmark and south Sweden.
    3) I understand that the haplogroups R1 a and R1 b arrived at the end of
    the Neolithic Age. There is a theory that the people from Ahrensburg Culture near Hambourg came from the Ukraine and had the haplogroup R1a.
    See the wikipedia haplogroup R1a. Maybe men of the haplogroup R1a
    in Scandinavia and Germany are descendants of the men of the Ahrens-
    burg culture?

    I was a little dispointed that the Germanic and Celtic tribes did not descend from the ancient Cro-Magnons from France. Tacitus wrote
    that the fair haired Germanics have lived for thousands of years in
    north of Europe and he could not imagine himself that people from
    other countries would go to these unpleasant areas. According to him
    they are autochtonous in their country.

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    I wonder from where R1b came to kill the neolithic peoples
    so I don't share this opinion about murders ...
    Last edited by willy; 10-11-10 at 23:47.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very interesting. Finally some Neolithic Y-DNA from Europe. As I had expected no R1a and R1b.

    The presence of F* is unexpected considering that it has virtually disappeared from the modern population, except in the Caucasus. This could mean that the Neolithic farmers of the LBK originated in the (southern) Caucasus, the place where cattle, goats and sheep were first domesticated.

    The rarity of F* and G2a3 in the geographic area corresponding to the LBK Culture also means that the R1a and R1b Indo-Europeans who invaded Europe in the 3rd millenium BCE most certainly killed most of the men from the Neolithic population.

    Out of 26 mtDNA haplotypes identified, there were :

    - 3 N1a
    - 3 HV
    - 3 H
    - 1 V
    - 3 J
    - 6 T (incl. 3 T2)
    - 4 K
    - 1 U5a1a
    - 2 W

    No big surprise here. It is pretty much a Middle Eastern composition, except the U5a1a, V and W samples (perhaps an assimilated hunter-gatherers). Note the near absence of haplogroup U, which is the dominant haplogroup after H in northern Europe nowadays. Neolithic lineages had a high proportion of N1a and HV compared to the modern European population, which also supports the hypothesis of a major population shift since then. The authors mention that only 11 of these 26 haplotypes are found in high frequency in the present-day population. In other words, there would have been massive extinction of lineages on the maternal side too, although probably less important than for male lineages.

    The article comes with a map of genetic distances between the LBK samples and modern populations. It confirms a strong link with Anatolia and the Caucasus.



    It also shows that the regions where Y-DNA haplogroup I is the strongest in comparison to Near-Eastern haplogroups E1b1b, T, J and G2a (i.e. northern Spain, Scandinavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina) are the regions where mtDNA lineages are the farthest from the LBK/Near-Eastern samples.



    (more detailed above the above map in the thread Europe before the Indo-Europeans)

    Since I determined the percentage of Paleolithic vs Neolithic admixture by subtracting R1a and R1b percentages, this new study provides a confirmation that that R1a and R1b were indeed absent in Central and Western Europe during the Neolithic, since their modern incidence can be completely ignored to determine which region has the most Near-Eastern/Neolithic lineages.

    The part of northern France around Picardy and Upper Normandy seems to be a hotspot for Near Eastern mtDNA. I had previously noticed the higher than average incidence of hg G2a and J2 in the region. I have personally observed that people in this region did look considerably more Caucasian (not Semitic) than elsewhere in northern Europe. A perfect example is French Defence Minister Hervé Morin (pictured below), who hails from this part of France.



    I think that Neolithic LBK farmers from the Caucasus could have looked like that.
    Yes he looks a Caucasian !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very interesting. Finally some Neolithic Y-DNA from Europe. As I had expected no R1a and R1b.
    yes correct and no J2 E1 I1 I2 !

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    yes correct and no J2 E1 I1 I2 !
    good point
    though, based on its variance I think J2 was spreading along sea coasts... so, I think it never was present in Germany...

    but I would expect I1, I2 and perhaps E1 in Germany where samples come from.... but it is only 3 samples...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    good point
    though, based on its variance I think J2 was spreading along sea coasts... so, I think it never was present in Germany...

    but I would expect I1, I2 and perhaps E1 in Germany where samples come from.... but it is only 3 samples...
    Yes correct only 3 samples ... I will be curious about the others

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    yes correct and no J2 E1 I1 I2 !
    Why would you expect to find I1 or I2 among neolithic farmers ? They were the hunter-gatherers.

    As for E1b1b and J2, I think there could be some among other samples, because the mtDNA is clearly Middle Eastern. It's also possible that E1b1b and J2 came from Anatolia to the Balkans and Danubian basin later, and the first wave was more Caucasian (F + G2a). Let's not forget that there were two Neolithic expansions : herding from the southern Caucasus, and farming from the Levant. Most people assume that the two would have merged in Anatolia before moving into Europe, but it's possible that the very first Neolithic Near Easterners to foot in Europe came from the Caucasus through northern Anatolia, with little or no Levantine admixture. Nevertheless, Caucasian would still probably carry a substantial percentage of J2, along with G2a and F.

    If there is any R1b at all among Neolithic farmers, it would be Levantine R1b1a or old Anatolian subclades like R1b1b* or possibly R1b1b2*, but not R1b1b2a and deeper clades. In any case it would be a minority, not the overwhelming proportion seen today in Western Europe.

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    But the haplogroup R1 b came from Anatolia? And the haplogroup I is
    an original West-European haplogroup of the ancient hunters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But the haplogroup R1 b came from Anatolia? And the haplogroup I is
    an original West-European haplogroup of the ancient hunters?
    I think R1b was on the continent also with I so this is my opinion ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ........... first wave was more Caucasian (F + G2a). ...........

    this contradict your previous statment:

    " Quote:Originally Posted by Maciamo


    The high density of G2a3 in mountainous areas rather suggest that they were mine workers and metallurgists, so not the elite.."


    ------------

    The haplogroup G were quite likely the original inhabitants of Europe. As Indoeuropean tribes started migrating to Europe the original inhabitants lost their territories to escape to inaccessible high altitude terrain for safety. It was very common that people living in mountain areas were isolated and more protected from outside invaders. ususally people living in mountain areas also preserve their heritage more effectively than those living in lowland areas.

    ----------------------------------------------------
    the Origin of Y-dna haplogroup G in Wapedia:
    Haplogroup G (Y-DNA)

    Origins

    Various estimated dates and locations have been proposed for the origin of Haplogroup G. The National Geographic Society places haplogroup G origins in the Middle East 10-20,000 years ago and presumes that people carrying the haplogroup took part in the spread of the Neolithic Two scholarly papers have also suggested an origin in the Middle East, while differing on the date. Semino et al. suggested 17,000 years ago. Cinnioglu et al. suggested the mutation took place 9,500 years ago. [The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G date only from the 7th century C.E. and were found in present-day Bavaria, Germany

    it was discussed in this link:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...t=26019&page=2

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA View Post
    The haplogroup G were quite likely the original inhabitants of Europe. As Indoeuropean tribes started migrating to Europe the original inhabitants lost their territories to escape to inaccessible high altitude terrain for safety. It was very common that people living in mountain areas were isolated and more protected from outside invaders. ususally people living in mountain areas also preserve their heritage more effectively than those living in lowland areas.
    This scenario is indeed realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA View Post
    this contradict your previous statment:


    The haplogroup G were quite likely the original inhabitants of Europe. As Indoeuropean tribes started migrating to Europe the original inhabitants lost their territories to escape to inaccessible high altitude terrain for safety. It was very common that people living in mountain areas were isolated and more protected from outside invaders. ususally people living in mountain areas also preserve their heritage more effectively than those living in lowland areas.
    thats strange to find them in Netherlands in Frisians there is no mountain there ? so about their heritage these G2a seems very Germanic people I have read this on that forum I don't remember where ?

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    Iberia seems to be the most Paleolithic area of western Europe. This was already confirmed in a previous study :


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But the haplogroup R1 b came from Anatolia?
    Yes and no. It depends when, and where in Anatolia. Nowadays R1b is more common in northern and eastern Anatolia. However R1b is not dominant there, and probably came from somewhere else first (like the Pontic-Caspian steppe or even Central Asia). It's hard to say at present when R1b entered Anatolia, and if these early Anatolian R1b were indeed the ancestors of present-day Western Europeans.

    I had imagined that the R1b homeland might actually be on the other side of the Caucasus, between the northern shore of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Repeated westward and southward invasions would have brought R1b to Europe and Anatolia, but also depleted the original stock, until most of the R1b were pushed out of the Pontic steppes by their R1a neighbours. Of course this would have taken several millennia to achieve, starting approximately 5000 years ago, and ending not so long ago, with the last Central Asian invaders (Bulgars, Magyars, Khazars) that swept across the Pontic steppes to Europe (=> see my thread 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian steppes to Europe ).

    If modern Europeans descended in great part from Anatolia, Caucasian and Levantine immigrants, the incidence of fair hair and fair eyes would not be as high as it is today. Let's not forget red hair, which is almost unique to Western European R1b countries and parts of Central Asia. If red and blond hair came from Paleolithic Europeans (hg I), then the highest incidence would be in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sardinia. But these places are among the darkest in Europe for hair colour (Sardinia might well be the darkest, close to 100% black hair - Sardinian R1b appears to be mostly R-U152 from continental Italy, where the high percentage of Near-Eastern blood had lowered the incidence of fair hair before R1b reached Sardinia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Iberia seems to be the most Paleolithic area of western Europe. This was already confirmed in a previous study :

    Where does this come from ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    thats strange to find them in Netherlands in Frisians there is no mountain there ? so about their heritage these G2a seems very Germanic people I have read this on that forum I don't remember where ?
    In flat regions, marshes provide a similar protection from outsiders as mountains. It could be why Picardy also has more Near-Eastern lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MPA View Post
    The haplogroup G were quite likely the original inhabitants of Europe. As Indoeuropean tribes started migrating to Europe the original inhabitants lost their territories to escape to inaccessible high altitude terrain for safety. It was very common that people living in mountain areas were isolated and more protected from outside invaders. ususally people living in mountain areas also preserve their heritage more effectively than those living in lowland areas.
    First of all, the original inhabitants of Europe belonged to hg I, not G. I somehow agree, in principle, that people might want to seek refuge from invasions in mountainous areas. However, the Indo-Europeans were particularly metal-thirsty. It is evident from archaeological evidence in their tombs in the Eurasian plains that they had strong cravings for gold, copper and tin. If the Indo-Europeans had anything to do with the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus, reputed for its early developments in metallurgy (e.g. the world's first bronze swords), it is probable that they would have invaded the Balkans for its wealth or copper, and push forward to the Alps, then to Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Cantabria, Galicia, Italy and other metal-rich regions of Europe because they needed it.

    The Indo-Europeans were warriors belonging to a highly hierarchical society with an acute sense of prestige, and prestige goods were mainly made of metal (gold or bronze). Just like Spaniards conquered the New World motivated by their thirst of gold, and California was built on the gold rush, I can very well conceive that Western Europe was colonised by the Indo-Europeans from the steppes for its natural resources and the feeble resistance of the locals due to less developed military technologies (namely stone weapons against bronze blades and axes).

    The mere fact that the vast majority of northern and central Europeans belong to the same very recent subclade haplogroup G (G2a3b1a, about 4500 years old) not only disagrees with a Paleolithic European origin of G, but also coincides with the Indo-European migrations and the age of R1b1b2a1. It all fits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes and no. It depends when, and where in Anatolia. Nowadays R1b is more common in northern and eastern Anatolia. However R1b is not dominant there, and probably came from somewhere else first (like the Pontic-Caspian steppe or even Central Asia). It's hard to say at present when R1b entered Anatolia, and if these early Anatolian R1b were indeed the ancestors of present-day Western Europeans.

    I had imagined that the R1b homeland might actually be on the other side of the Caucasus, between the northern shore of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Repeated westward and southward invasions would have brought R1b to Europe and Anatolia, but also depleted the original stock, until most of the R1b were pushed out of the Pontic steppes by their R1a neighbours. Of course this would have taken several millennia to achieve, starting approximately 5000 years ago, and ending not so long ago, with the last Central Asian invaders (Bulgars, Magyars, Khazars) that swept across the Pontic steppes to Europe (=> see my thread 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian steppes to Europe ).

    If modern Europeans descended in great part from Anatolia, Caucasian and Levantine immigrants, the incidence of fair hair and fair eyes would not be as high as it is today. Let's not forget red hair, which is almost unique to Western European R1b countries and parts of Central Asia. If red and blond hair came from Paleolithic Europeans (hg I), then the highest incidence would be in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sardinia. But these places are among the darkest in Europe for hair colour (Sardinia might well be the darkest, close to 100% black hair - Sardinian R1b appears to be mostly R-U152 from continental Italy, where the high percentage of Near-Eastern blood had lowered the incidence of fair hair before R1b reached Sardinia).
    Yes but why there is fair hair and blue eyes and milk aptitude in the mixture R1a -11c or R1b - I1c among the Germanic peoples as Scandinavians cause if I1c was not fair hair and blue eyes the recessive genes of I1 supposed to be black brown eyes and black hair would appear

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes but why there is fair hair and blue eyes and milk aptitude in the mixture R1a -11c or R1b - I1c among the Germanic peoples as Scandinavians cause if I1c was not fair hair and blue eyes the recessive genes of I1 supposed to be black brown eyes and black hair would appear
    Simply because R1a and R1b are the dominant haplogroups among Germanic peoples (about 60% in the Benelux and North Germany, 65% in Iceland, 67% in Denmark). European Russians, Poles and Ukrainians have a lot of blond hair and also have a high percentage of R1a + R1b (73% for Poles, about 54% for Russians and Ukrainians).

    Add to this natural selection in northern Europe for fair pigmentation. Blond hair and blue eyes could have entered the I1 and I2b gene pool quite early on. I1 in particular seems to be a very recent haplogroup, which re-expanded from a common ancestor only 4000 years ago (i.e. after Scandinavia and Germany were swallowed up by R1a and probably also R1b). So the Paleolithic and neolithic pre-I1 could have been darked haired and eyed (like the Saami), but a small group of I1 might have been assimilated by the conquering R1a, married blond Indo-European girls, and after a few generations have male I1 children that were blond with blue eyes. It didn't happen with I2a because there was no such bottleneck.

    You should also look at the percentage of maternal lineages corresponding to R1a and R1b. U2 and U4 lineages in particular correlate strongly with R1a, and are almost as strong in Scandinavia as in North-West Russia.

    In Italy, southern France or Iberia, on the other hand, most of the mtDNA lineages are Paleolithic or Neolithic, and few are Indo-European. If genes are only passed on by the paternal side, and the R1b replacement did take place progressively due to a small oligarchy of Indo-European having lots of local wives for many centuries, then the Indo-European blood would have been heavily diluted. This is how a society can end up with a high percentage of one particular Y-DNA haplogroup but not so much autosomal DNA in line with it. This tends to be especially true if the Y-DNA lineages lack diversity, as is the case in northern Italy (mostly R1b-U152) and Spain (mostly R1b-P312 or R1b-M153 for the Basques).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In Italy, southern France or Iberia, on the other hand, most of the mtDNA lineages are Paleolithic or Neolithic, and few are Indo-European. If genes are only passed on by the paternal side, and the R1b replacement did take place progressively due to a small oligarchy of Indo-European having lots of local wives for many centuries, then the Indo-European blood would have been heavily diluted. This is how a society can end up with a high percentage of one particular Y-DNA haplogroup but not so much autosomal DNA in line with it. This tends to be especially true if the Y-DNA lineages lack diversity, as is the case in northern Italy (mostly R1b-U152) and Spain (mostly R1b-P312 or R1b-M153 for the Basques).
    Yes this is the same thing about the R1b found at high % in Central Africa notice this Y-DNA lineage lake also diversity anyway they are not white cause their African mtDNA ! Same thing about the Y-DNA R1a in India .Other cases of mixture are the French - Spanish - Italians I do agree. I am often surprise to see some dark skin peoples in Brittany with North African features for a high level of Y-DNA R1b1b2 who seems also lake diversity ? anyway I always wondering if these North African features found in Brittany , I mean : black skin brown eyes etc .. were really correlated to these paleolithic mtDNA or from a more recent mixture but I do agree with you . Anyway the Indo european blood is more representative in Germanic and Nordic countries include Poland and Baltic eras no doubt .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    Yes this is the same thing about the R1b found at high % in Central Africa notice this Y-DNA lineage lake also diversity anyway they are not white cause their African mtDNA ! Same thing about the Y-DNA R1a in India .Other cases of mixture are the French - Spanish - Italians I do agree. I am often surprise to see some dark skin peoples in Brittany with North African features for a high level of Y-DNA R1b1b2 who seems also lake diversity ? anyway I always wondering if these North African features found in Brittany , I mean : black skin brown eyes etc .. were really correlated to these paleolithic mtDNA or from a more recent mixture but I do agree with you . Anyway the Indo european blood is more representative in Germanic and Nordic countries include Poland and Baltic eras no doubt .
    what ? north african features in Brittany ? Since when is dark hair a north-african feature ? And where do you get that Baltics and Polaks are the most representatives of Indo-europeans ?? The Celts were also indo-europeans, and they settled mostly in France, Iberia, Ireland, etc. they didn't settle in Poland nor the Baltic area. Plus the Balts have lots of Ugric N1c like the Finnish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Simply because R1a and R1b are the dominant haplogroups among Germanic peoples (about 60% in the Benelux and North Germany, 65% in Iceland, 67% in Denmark). European Russians, Poles and Ukrainians have a lot of blond hair and also have a high percentage of R1a + R1b (73% for Poles, about 54% for Russians and Ukrainians).

    Add to this natural selection in northern Europe for fair pigmentation. Blond hair and blue eyes could have entered the I1 and I2b gene pool quite early on. I1 in particular seems to be a very recent haplogroup, which re-expanded from a common ancestor only 4000 years ago (i.e. after Scandinavia and Germany were swallowed up by R1a and probably also R1b). So the Paleolithic and neolithic pre-I1 could have been darked haired and eyed (like the Saami), but a small group of I1 might have been assimilated by the conquering R1a, married blond Indo-European girls, and after a few generations have male I1 children that were blond with blue eyes. It didn't happen with I2a because there was no such bottleneck.

    You should also look at the percentage of maternal lineages corresponding to R1a and R1b. U2 and U4 lineages in particular correlate strongly with R1a, and are almost as strong in Scandinavia as in North-West Russia.

    In Italy, southern France or Iberia, on the other hand, most of the mtDNA lineages are Paleolithic or Neolithic, and few are Indo-European. If genes are only passed on by the paternal side, and the R1b replacement did take place progressively due to a small oligarchy of Indo-European having lots of local wives for many centuries, then the Indo-European blood would have been heavily diluted. This is how a society can end up with a high percentage of one particular Y-DNA haplogroup but not so much autosomal DNA in line with it. This tends to be especially true if the Y-DNA lineages lack diversity, as is the case in northern Italy (mostly R1b-U152) and Spain (mostly R1b-P312 or R1b-M153 for the Basques).
    But how do you explain the Finnish case, with so much blondism and 60% of N1c ? Also, if the R1b hg is indo-european, how is that the Iberians (mainly in today Catalonia, 80% R1b) are considered pre-Indoeuropean ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where does this come from ?
    The Chikhi et al. study.

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